5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

seamus

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

What sort of father murders his innocent children

If that was my daughter he killed I would hold a major grudge

Which I think would be a fair reaction

that's very simplistic to be fair.

The grandparents will have known him well, interacted with him. Unless they had good reason to be wary of him previously, they're going to be far more shocked at his actions than us and far less likely to jump to conclusions about him being an evil psycho.

It's easy for us to make trite rhetoric like "what kind of man murders his children". But they knew the kind of man he was and it probably doesn't stack up as the kind of man who would do this.

eviltwin

He didn't just kill them, he butchered them. Knife and a hatchet and the possibility of something else....that's not the actions of a loving husband and father.

demfad

Carnacalla wrote: »

The man who drove straight into a truck near oola in a murder suicide is also buried with his child.

The man who drowned his daughter before killing himself a few years back likewise. The mother was many years his junior, was from North America. As far as I know she wanted to leave him and move back to North America to put distance between them. The killing seemed to be in part to punish his wife. Well he showed her. I doubt greatly that she wanted her child to be buried with that man. But the media and local community and in particular the local parish priest piled on the pressure. There seemed to me from a distance to be a complete vindication of that mans actions with silent implication in her direction. That little girl is buried beside the man who ended her life to punish her mother. We live in a pretty sick society. You'd wonder if the most recent family annihilator had looked at older cases to gauge how his actions would be viewed. If so you'd imagine no deterrent and only encouragement to his eyes.

rjpf1980

A lot of crap here about "evil."
When you call Alan Hawe "evil" it just means you have no explanation for his actions.
Hawe was a normal guy who broke under the pressure of holding down a job a marriage and being a father.
He wasn't strong enough to keep up the front that we all have our sh*t together and he broke under the strain.
Don't tell me you have never thought about ending it all? I am positive everyone feels this way but we snap out of it.
For you who have never been mentally ill or never encountered relatives or friends in dire distress well done. You are lucky.
What Hawe did was inexcusable and had he lived he should have been punished to the fullest extent of the law.
We must have taboos and he broke the ultimate one.
Anyone of us can break and go down the road he took.
I pity murderers and criminals.
Send them to prison and deprive them of their freedom and protect society and try to deter others by making an example of them.
Calling someone "evil" is like the expression "God's will." An expression of incomprehension and bewilderment.
The shoe could be on the other foot.
The soldiers in the firing squad executing the cowardly soldier could just as easily be tied to the post with blindfold and a white card pinned to his chest.

Bruthal

demfad wrote: »

You'd wonder if the most recent family annihilator had looked at older cases to gauge how his actions would be viewed. If so you'd imagine no deterrent and only encouragement to his eyes.

Fantasy land stuff there.

Spanish Eyes

Just another view.

Evil and insalnity are not always the reasons for such an atrocity.

There is command and control aswell. Controlling partners usually up the game as time goes on.

So I keep an open mind. Some partners will control everything from money, friends, access to family and so on. The other partner is isolated totally.

Who knows? But it has to be taken into consideration aswell as the MH issues.

I'm sure everyone knows that the most dangerous part of a breakup is when the other partner is leaving, or has let it be known they are going and the relationship is over. That is often the result of domestic or emotional or financial abuse, or all three beforehand.

Just putting another scenario out there. Total control was achieved by killing everyone wasn't it?

I read today that there was no history of depression or involvement with MH services either.

True to say that "no one knows what goes on behind closed doors" just the same.

Indicative also was this happened just at the start of the school year, when both parents would be going back to different schools, and different colleagues.

They will not be coming back though. And I also think a lot of pressure is put on families to bury the murderer with the victims.

Una Butler in Cork where her husband killed their two little girls and himself, did not agree to him being buried with the girls. Strong woman, even though she never said he was anything but a great husband and father. But he was a murderer of her girls just the same.

demfad

seamus wrote: »

that's very simplistic to be fair.

The grandparents will have known him well, interacted with him. Unless they had good reason to be wary of him previously, they're going to be far more shocked at his actions than us and far less likely to jump to conclusions about him being an evil psycho.

It's easy for us to make trite rhetoric like "what kind of man murders his children". But they knew the kind of man he was and it probably doesn't stack up as the kind of man who would do this.

Murderers of wives, partners, families are not the stereotypical evil psychos you paint. They tend to be normal seeming. We don't know anything about what the murdered woman's patents thought of him, or how well they actually knew him. You seem to be using a lot of assumptions in your attempt to bend over backwards to imply mitigation for this mans actions. All we know is that he butchered his family in a premeditated fashion. If you want to find motive for now best to look up past studies on familicides. There is a common theme of the killer feeling shamed on some way, always having a proprietary outlook on his family ( allowing him to kill them). in many cases the killer self righteously believes that someone else is to blame for his shaming. The letter this guy write to his relatives might well try and land the blame on other parties, but that would be speculation for now.

strandroad

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Una Butler in Cork where her husband killed their two little girls and himself, did not agree to him being buried with the girls. Strong woman, even though she never said he was anything but a great husband and father. But he was a murderer of her girls just the same.

When an 11-month old boy was killed by his father in Killarney this year in a murder-suicide, his mother buried the boy on his own.

Spanish Eyes

mhge wrote: »

When an 11-month old boy was killed by his father in Killarney this year in a murder-suicide, his mother buried the boy on his own.

Just looked that up. Very sad, as are all these cases, but not all are MH related I would bet. Many are for revenge I would think.

Anyway, how quickly we forget these awful murder/suicides just the same. I suppose that is normal though, life goes on.

LordSutch

eviltwin wrote: »

He didn't just kill them, he butchered them. Knife and a hatchet and the possibility of something else....that's not the actions of a loving husband and father.

Its like a fuse blows in the mind, and a black mist descends into madness. I still remember a similar case in England a a few years back, when a loving husband did the same thing... terrible, shocking, crazy, mental, unnatural, sick, selfish, sinister, murderous & evil all rolled into one. Very sad too!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/20/10/335B87EE00000578-3549392-image-a-18_1461145583050.jpg

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/nov/22/christopher-foster-news-crime

Tasden

People keep saying that there was no history of mental health or psychological issues and he didn't engage with associated services, well if his issues went undiagnosed that would obviously be the case. Left undiagnosed they manifest and spiral and can lead to tragedy. It would make sense that he hadn't engaged.
Obviously we don't know at all. But no history and no previous treatment/engagement with services does not mean he wasn't suffering.

If he didn't think he was suffering from a psychological condition (some people don't realise they are as the condition by its very nature will make everything seem real/normal) then he wouldn't seek help.

There are no answers. We don't know what happened.

Tasden

Tasden wrote: »

There are no answers. We don't know what happened.

Just because we don't know (and for now, have no right to know), doesn't mean there are no answers.

Alan Hawe left a fairly lengthy note, according to media reports, which should provide some insight into his mindset; it's not inconceivable that colleagues & family may have been aware of any strain he was under, too.

Psychotic illness is far, far more difficult to mask than mood or personality disorders, and unless Hawe had a psychosis, which is unlikely, I really think he deserves a presumption of guilt for the murder of his wife and children, since there's no question but that he was responsible for their killing.

Tasden

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Just because we don't know (and for now, have no right to know), doesn't mean there are no answers.

Alan Hawe left a fairly lengthy note, according to media reports, which should provide some insight into his mindset; it's not inconceivable that colleagues & family may have been aware of any strain he was under, too.

Psychotic illness is far, far more difficult to mask than mood or personality disorders, and unless Hawe had a psychosis, which is unlikely, I really think he deserves a presumption of guilt for the murder of his wife and children, since there's no question but that he was responsible for their killing.

Well obviously he's guilty.

I was more pointing out that people are saying "well we have this info, so that means this info and therefore he is x y and z". We really don't know.

And by no answers I meant there are no answers right now to us. We can all speculate but we only have snippets of info and misinformation so there are no answers we can arrive at.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

He didn't just kill them, he butchered them. Knife and a hatchet and the possibility of something else....that's not the actions of a loving husband and father.

I'm out of the country and read about this on several Irish news websites, and I find the reporting very unsettling.

From priests talking about him being involved in the community to neighbours talking about him being a family man, about how he was such a good father, involved in the GAA, a dedicated teacher - he is being painted as a pillar of the community and someone no one would ever suspect to be a killer of children.

Maybe he was desperately ill, maybe he snapped, maybe he couldn't go on. But he killed his family, and it's just a little bit sickening to see him being praised as a good and caring human being, while his wife and kids bodies lie butchered in their coffins.

Spanish Eyes

Leaving a detailed note to me means premeditation, or in other words justification for this.

Absolutely NO. Sorry nothing justifies this.

Revenge maybe from a controlling individual trying to justify his actions. You know.... everyone (including my lovely boys) are to blame except me.

That's more than I can stomach at the moment.

allthedoyles

Maybe it was mentioned already in thread , this man was from Ballyjamesduff Co.Cavan and in 2007 he drowned his daughters and killed himself :

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dad-drowns-daughters-in-bath-then-kills-himself-26299350.html

Omackeral

rjpf1980 wrote: »

A lot of crap here about "evil."
When you call Alan Hawe "evil" it just means you have no explanation for his actions.
Hawe was a normal guy who broke under the pressure of holding down a job a marriage and being a father.
He wasn't strong enough to keep up the front that we all have our sh*t together and he broke under the strain.
Anyone of us can break and go down the road he took.

I can honestly say no matter how bad it gets I'll never massacre my whole family. I can guarantee it in fact.

strandroad

Candie wrote: »

I'm out of the country and read about this on several Irish news websites, and I find the reporting very unsettling.

From priests talking about him being involved in the community to neighbours talking about him being a family man, about how he was such a good father, involved in the GAA, a dedicated teacher - he is being painted as a pillar of the community and someone no one would ever suspect to be a killer of children.

Maybe he was desperately ill, maybe he snapped, maybe he couldn't go on. But he killed his family, and it's just a little bit sickening to see him being praised as a good and caring human being, while his wife and kids bodies lie butchered in their coffins.

It all makes me wonder if it might be the long standing tradition of domestic violence "dirty laundry" shtum at work? His wife was a teacher too. Imagine if he met her and the boys up in her school for lunch and attacked them there instead, he'd be a monster regardless of his motivations. But when he did the exact same thing in their own house it's a personal tragedy of a loving and dedicated man. Why is that?

demfad

rjpf1980 wrote: »

A lot of crap here about "evil."
When you call Alan Hawe "evil" it just means you have no explanation for his actions.
Hawe was a normal guy who broke under the pressure of holding down a job a marriage and being a father.
He wasn't strong enough to keep up the front that we all have our sh*t together and he broke under the strain.
Don't tell me you have never thought about ending it all? I am positive everyone feels this way but we snap out of it.
For you who have never been mentally ill or never encountered relatives or friends in dire distress well done. You are lucky.
What Hawe did was inexcusable and had he lived he should have been punished to the fullest extent of the law.
We must have taboos and he broke the ultimate one.
Anyone of us can break and go down the road he took.
I pity murderers and criminals.
Send them to prison and deprive them of their freedom and protect society and try to deter others by making an example of them.
Calling someone "evil" is like the expression "God's will." An expression of incomprehension and bewilderment.
The shoe could be on the other foot.
The soldiers in the firing squad executing the cowardly soldier could just as easily be tied to the post with blindfold and a white card pinned to his chest.

You said anyone could go down the road Hawe took. That is a lie. Many men might at some stage contemplate suicide but the vast vast majority would not contemplate killing their partner or children als. Why would the thought of killing them occur? Depressed people can be suicidal but depression does not make someone homicidal. Could you at least have a look at the motives of previous familicides before pulling your theories out of you know where ? In almost all cases the man views his family more or less as his property. His to take with him when he goes. Please don't project that abhorrent personality on the majority of us, more or less decent men.

Your Face

Candie wrote: »

I'm out of the country and read about this on several Irish news websites, and I find the reporting very unsettling.

From priests talking about him being involved in the community to neighbours talking about him being a family man, about how he was such a good father, involved in the GAA, a dedicated teacher - he is being painted as a pillar of the community and someone no one would ever suspect to be a killer of children.

Maybe he was desperately ill, maybe he snapped, maybe he couldn't go on. But he killed his family, and it's just a little bit sickening to see him being praised as a good and caring human being, while his wife and kids bodies lie butchered in their coffins.

I just wanted to re-post that because I think its a very valid and telling observation.

r93kaey5p2izun

demfad wrote: »

We do not want to see this happen again therefore a truthful assessment of why these cases happen is needed.....

Your post has really struck a chord with me and I just want to say I'm so glad to see a discussion like this happening after this horrible incident. In the past I have been sick of the complete whitewash of discussion following these sorts of events.

Unfortunately due to personal circumstances I fear that my family may be at risk of a murder suicide event. There have been times I have walked into my home half prepared to see the worst, certainly considering it a vague possibility. And in the past I have lain in bed in fear of this sort of thing taking place. In my experience nobody wants to talk about it and everyone wants to hush it up, dismiss it, deny it. The hours I have spent worrying about this are immense but the hours I spent distraught at the willingness to just pretend it's not an issue surpass them.


And I know that should the worst ever come to pass that the narrative will be one of utter shock and sympathy for the person concerned, wringing of hands about how nobody could have known, and most sickeningly a joint burial. Because the people who would be spoken of reverently as "the family" to be "shown respect and left to grieve privately" refuse to see the truth and though "people" would claim "they must know the full situation, what he was really like" the fact is they don't have the first clue.

I'm thoroughly fed up of reading about these awful murders, the typical hand wringing non-response and the inevitable whitewash.

rjpf1980

Candie wrote: »

I'm out of the country and read about this on several Irish news websites, and I find the reporting very unsettling.

From priests talking about him being involved in the community to neighbours talking about him being a family man, about how he was such a good father, involved in the GAA, a dedicated teacher - he is being painted as a pillar of the community and someone no one would ever suspect to be a killer of children.

Maybe he was desperately ill, maybe he snapped, maybe he couldn't go on. But he killed his family, and it's just a little bit sickening to see him being praised as a good and caring human being, while his wife and kids bodies lie butchered in their coffins.

Well maybe in Ireland we still have humanity unlike the US where people who are sentenced to death? We are a forgiving understanding and loving people.

mhge

mhge wrote: »

It all makes me wonder if it might be the long standing tradition of domestic violence "dirty laundry" shtum at work? His wife was a teacher too. Imagine if he met her and the boys up in her school for lunch and attacked them there instead, he'd be a monster regardless of his motivations. But when he did the exact same thing in their own house it's a personal tragedy of a loving and dedicated man. Why is that?

I'm so conflicted about these things. I really can't believe he was a well person, and I do have some compassion for him for what must have been a tortured and twisted mind to do this awful thing.

Praising the man to the heavens though, that's wrong in so many ways and devalues the lives he took, as though his personal torment made the murder of his kids and wife understandable, if not excusable.

I've noticed how little his wife is mentioned, as though she's a bit player in this tragedy. I certainly haven't read as much testimony about her worth as a person as I have about him. It's all very unsettling.

A good few years ago, ten or more I think, a man drove off a harbour wall with his newborn baby strapped in his little seat beside him - and I remember thinking the father was being painted a saint, a man driven to suicide by depression who couldn't bear to be parted from his baby. I have nothing but compassion for someone who is suicidal, but that man didn't just kill himself, he murdered his baby. They were buried in the same coffin, if I recall correctly.

How many murderers are buried with the victims who aren't related, and why is it ever considered even remotely appropriate?

eviltwin

Candie wrote: »

I'm out of the country and read about this on several Irish news websites, and I find the reporting very unsettling.

From priests talking about him being involved in the community to neighbours talking about him being a family man, about how he was such a good father, involved in the GAA, a dedicated teacher - he is being painted as a pillar of the community and someone no one would ever suspect to be a killer of children.

Maybe he was desperately ill, maybe he snapped, maybe he couldn't go on. But he killed his family, and it's just a little bit sickening to see him being praised as a good and caring human being, while his wife and kids bodies lie butchered in their coffins.

I think for locals and people who knew him its a defensive mechanism. No one would like to the think they were living with or friendly towards some one like this. And people take on guilt, it's easier to not feel you should have seen some warning if you tell yourself he was a great bloke really.

But the media portrayal is hard to stomach. He doesn't deserve the attention and as usual the victims are almost secondary to the entire thing. I must admit when I see that photo of him with the boys I wish they would have cropped him out because it just turns my stomach.

Tasden

mhge wrote: »

It all makes me wonder if it might be the long standing tradition of domestic violence "dirty laundry" shtum at work? His wife was a teacher too. Imagine if he met her and the boys up in her school for lunch and attacked them there instead, he'd be a monster regardless of his motivations. But when he did the exact same thing in their own house it's a personal tragedy of a loving and dedicated man. Why is that?

I don't think people want to portray him a certain way, moreso that it is easier for people to get their head around someone doing something that awful out of illness or something, rather than out of evil.
If it had happened in front of people then witnesses would obviously see the evil first hand and people would be forced to face that and accept that. When we don't know the full story it is easy for people to say we don't know the facts and it could have been x y and z, trying to find a reason other than evil. When right now we don't have any reasons.

rjpf1980

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Well maybe in Ireland we still have humanity unlike the US where people who are sentenced to death? We are a forgiving understanding and loving people.

That little piece of judgement has nothing at all to do with the point I was making.

To me, the victims are the issue in a murder. To read some of the reporting - if not most of the reportage of this event, the murderer is being painted as a victim.

Perhaps he was a victim of devastating mental illness, but you know what? Lots of people are. And those people don't take a hatchet and a knife to their little boys, and take their lives.

strandroad

Candie wrote: »

Praising the man to the heavens though, that's wrong in so many ways and devalues the lives he took, as though his personal torment made the murder of his kids and wife understandable, if not excusable.

I would cut the neighbours etc some slack though, they were chased by the media for answers to things they haven't even had a chance to parse yet. They described the person they knew before all that and that's how they knew him to be.

It's once you learn about the hatchet and so on when you should just stop.

mhge

mhge wrote: »

I would cut the neighbours etc some slack though, they were chased by the media for answers to things they haven't even had a chance to parse yet. They described the person they knew before all that and that's how they knew him to be.

It's once you learn about the hatchet and so on when you should just stop.

I'd like to think that if one of my neighbours killed his entire family, my go-to response wouldn't be to chat about what a great guy he is.

You're probably right though, unless you've been in that situation it's very hard to judge what you'd do.

Annasopra

Tasden wrote: »

I don't think people want to portray him a certain way,

But they are doing exactly that - he is portrayed as a man of the community, a dedicated father, teacher, gaa man.

Lisha

Grayson Lively Drivel wrote: »

Your post has really struck a chord with me and I just want to say I'm so glad to see a discussion like this happening after this horrible incident. In the past I have been sick of the complete whitewash of discussion following these sorts of events.

Unfortunately due to personal circumstances I fear that my family may be at risk of a murder suicide event. There have been times I have walked into my home half prepared to see the worst, certainly considering it a vague possibility. And in the past I have lain in bed in fear of this sort of thing taking place. In my experience nobody wants to talk about it and everyone wants to hush it up, dismiss it, deny it. The hours I have spent worrying about this are immense but the hours I spent distraught at the willingness to just pretend it's not an issue surpass them.


And I know that should the worst ever come to pass that the narrative will be one of utter shock and sympathy for the person concerned, wringing of hands about how nobody could have known, and most sickeningly a joint burial. Because the people who would be spoken of reverently as "the family" to be "shown respect and left to grieve privately" refuse to see the truth and though "people" would claim "they must know the full situation, what he was really like" the fact is they don't have the first clue.

I'm thoroughly fed up of reading about these awful murders, the typical hand wringing non-response and the inevitable whitewash.

I hate to pry, but is it possible to separate your family members who may be a threat to them? Or at least to flag them to doctors/authorities?

I wish you and your family all the best and a safe future.