5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

DJIMI TRARORE

allthedoyles wrote: »

Maybe it was mentioned already in thread , this man was from Ballyjamesduff Co.Cavan and in 2007 he drowned his daughters and killed himself :

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dad-drowns-daughters-in-bath-then-kills-himself-26299350.html

Absolute no need to drag this up

Tasden

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But they are doing exactly that - he is portrayed as a man of the community, a dedicated father, teacher, gaa man.

I know they are but I don't think they are thinking "I must paint this guy in a good light and protect his reputation", it is more "I can't believe he did this, he was all of the above and there must have been more to it than him being just plain evil".

eviltwin

I wouldn't judge the locals, they are understandably traumatised and still processing this. And they can only speak about the person they knew who could easily have been a friendly, every man character.

rjpf1980

demfad wrote: »

You said anyone could go down the road Hawe took. That is a lie. Many men might at some stage contemplate suicide but the vast vast majority would not contemplate killing their partner or children als. Why would the thought of killing them occur? Depressed people can be suicidal but depression does not make someone homicidal. Could you at least have a look at the motives of previous familicides before pulling your theories out of you know where ? In almost all cases the man views his family more or less as his property. His to take with him when he goes. Please don't project that abhorrent personality on the majority of us, more or less decent men.

I am sure a lot people have thought about it and then dismissed it from their minds. If there were a nuclear war or another famine or return of the Black Death or if climate change results in the collapse of society I have no doubt whole communities would choose to kill themselves and their children too. When a man or woman feels there is no way out - mental illness can make it seems all other doors and exits are closed - they can feel killing their children is an act of love. People can and do kill others out of love. That's what is in the mind of a desperate person like Hawe. In a deranged persons mind what is abhorrent becomes rational.

Tasden

eviltwin wrote: »

I wouldn't judge the locals, they are understandably traumatised and still processing this. And they can only speak about the person they knew who could easily have been a friendly, every man character.

Exactly. And they are probably being asked "what was he like?" "Did you know him?" etc. It's not like they are ringing up reporters praising the man out of context

GLaDOS

Candie wrote: »

I'd like to think that if one of my neighbours killed his entire family, my go-to response wouldn't be to chat about what a great guy he is.

You're probably right though, unless you've been in that situation it's very hard to judge what you'd do.

It's important to remember we mightn't have the full context of the question they are answering. If a reporter asks what they thought of the dad before all this, the truthful answer is probably that he seemed like a stand up bloke. The media then report it as "Neighbours describe murderer as lovely guy" and it can come off as distasteful.

Maybe it'd be best if they didn't answer at all I suppose.

Annasopra

eviltwin wrote: »

I wouldn't judge the locals, they are understandably traumatised and still processing this. And they can only speak about the person they knew who could easily have been a friendly, every man character.

I suppose but I do agree with what Candie said. Its very unsettling to hear about a murderer constantly lionised in the media. This blogpost nails it for me.

http://www.linneadunne.com/2016/08/31/rest-in-peace-invisible-woman/

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I suppose but I do agree with what Candie said. Its very unsettling to hear about a murderer constantly lionised in the media. This blogpost nails it for me.

http://www.linneadunne.com/2016/08/31/rest-in-peace-invisible-woman/

Yeah the media and their response in cases like this is all wrong. I read one report which focused on him and barely mentioned Clodagh or the children. Some reports haven't bothered to name them, just referring to them as his wife and sons.

Yellow pack crisps

Candie wrote: »

That little piece of judgement has nothing at all to do with the point I was making.

To me, the victims are the issue in a murder. To read some of the reporting - if not most of the reportage of this event, the murderer is being painted as a victim.

Perhaps he was a victim of devastating mental illness, but you know what? Lots of people are. And those people don't take a hatchet and a knife to their little boys, and take their lives.

You're quite right in your assessment. Its actually disturbing the way the reporting has been carried out in this murderous event. The 'Star' of the show is being paid homage while the victims are just that: Victims.

Ian Huntley is a hated figure for murdering those two girls and rightfully so and it seems like the only difference here is that this man killed himself as if that is some sort of justification. Its not. My own personal view is that he is no different. A murderer and a child killer. A coward who would not seek the help he obviously needed and instead took the lives of the innocent.

I have all the empathy in the world for people with mental health issues and people who take their own life. I don't have empathy for people who murder and especially if those victims of murder are children.

the dark phantom

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But they are doing exactly that - he is portrayed as a man of the community, a dedicated father, teacher, gaa man.

Bang on ! If he was a tarmacer instead of a teacher, Lived in Cabra instead of rural Cavan, Then the vitriol would flow.

Only a worthless excuse of a human would do what he did. Just because he had the attributes of an all-Irish sporting family man didn't mean he wasn't some mad nut behind it all.

strandroad

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I suppose but I do agree with what Candie said. Its very unsettling to hear about a murderer constantly lionised in the media. This blogpost nails it for me.

http://www.linneadunne.com/2016/08/31/rest-in-peace-invisible-woman/

That's a very sad post and very true. It's visible that the focus is on the three child victims, to the point of using their picture with their father (but the mother missing) everywhere. I read a horrible sentence earlier today somewhere, about "three innocent children and their 30-year old mother" - as if she was not innocent? Brought it on herself? Drove him to it?

Wigglepuppy

demfad wrote: »

The point you are missing is that according to ACTUAL RESEARCH into cases of familicide where the murderer/victims survived: their testimonies show that only in a minority of cases is a mental illness responsible for the suicide and it is rarely ever responsible for the murders. DO YOU GET THIS?

Fair enough. It is an extremely difficult and sensitive topic but your tone implies you're inferring an intent to upset, when that's not actually the case.

The last thing I want to do is cause upset - mental illness has affected my family, if not severe (but that's the thing - there is a huge spectrum, so surmising that someone who has done something terrible has/had a severe mental illness is not intended as a slight against all of those who are mentally ill) and I have a friend with very severe bipolar, as well as knowing someone (close friend of a close friend) with bipolar disorder who set fire to his home because he heard voices telling him to do so. This guy is a really lovely, kind man - not taking his meds changes him for the worst though. I know it's an horrendous affliction and I don't want to disrespect good people (the majority) who have a mental illness.

I guess I'm partially coming from where tinz18, in their really great post (I have had dealings with the type of person they describe also) is talking about: difficulty in believing someone could have done such a thing without the influence of e.g. psychosis. That said, I don't disbelieve that some people are just innately awful, no mental illness or environmental factors required. I just find it so hard to believe someone would go as far as this man went without additional factors. Even being a psychopath is a personality disorder/psychological condition. But maybe I'm wrong - maybe there are people who are as sane and rational as I am with not even a hint of any personality disorder but are simply so dreadful in terms of their personality/character that they'd do the most heinous of the most heinous to others.

However is it wrong just to speculate that he might have had a severe mental illness and was not evil but insane (and of course did one of the worst things possible)? It's not impossible - psychosis has caused people to do horrific things. Just like I don't know that he did, you don't know that he didn't (although as you say, studies would indicate you're more likely than I to be correct). I was taking Shop40's post about their teacher father and his gradually declining wellbeing (obviously nothing remotely as extreme as this of course) into consideration too. I didn't mean that I thought the man in Cavan just snapped out of the blue, rather that it might have been a gradual deterioration and then he snapped.

Or sometimes evil and insanity can co-exist.

There is a misconception too that surmising that someone who did something horrendous to others is mentally ill is somehow exonerating them - it's simply not the case. They still did it, they still (obviously not possible in this case) need to be locked up. I said that too in my post - he was the one responsible, nobody else. And I am NOT saying he deserves sympathy.

I'm sorry to offend - I don't mean to, but I honestly cannot bring myself just to decide he was evil and cruel and that was all there was to it. Now I'm not saying he definitely wasn't - maybe he was. But like any of us, I just don't know, so I can't state as fact what the case was - but I can speculate.

Spanish Eyes

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I suppose but I do agree with what Candie said. Its very unsettling to hear about a murderer constantly lionised in the media. This blogpost nails it for me.

http://www.linneadunne.com/2016/08/31/rest-in-peace-invisible-woman/

Even the picture of the wife/mother was blurred with that red eye syndrome.

But that could have been because it was the only pic available or offered.

However... the father and the boys picture was clear enough.

Something is smelling salts here. Or maybe that's just me, probably is.

Clodagh is a victim of murder in a horrible way. The murderer though was the Vice Principal. Hmmm. what if he had killed three of the pupils and their teacher. Wonder what the reaction would be then.

Just sucks to me.

No justification is any justification for murder, but I am getting some signals for that.

Annasopra

mhge wrote: »

That's a very sad post and very true. It's visible that the focus is on the three child victims, to the point of using their picture with their father (but the mother missing) everywhere. I read a horrible sentence earlier today somewhere, about "three innocent children and their 30-year old mother" - as if she was not innocent? Brought it on herself? Drove him to it?

Exactly and the Irish public is showing the media coverage on this up this evening on twitter. #hernamewasclodagh

lillycakes2

I do not understand why the Murderers wishes are being granted to only show his explanation to relatives of why he murdered 4 people???
The public should be entitled to know what his reasons were for murdered? Why is he being protected?

lillycakes2

I do not understand why the Murderers wishes are being granted to only show his explanation to relatives of why he murdered 4 people???
The public should be entitled to know what his reasons were for murder? Why is he being protected?

eviltwin

lillycakes2 wrote: »

I do not understand why the Murderers wishes are being granted to only show his explanation to relatives of why he murdered 4 people???
The public should be entitled to know what his reasons were for murdered? Why is he being protected?

The wishes and needs of the family are what's important not what we the public want.

Elliott S

Candie wrote: »

I'm out of the country and read about this on several Irish news websites, and I find the reporting very unsettling.

From priests talking about him being involved in the community to neighbours talking about him being a family man, about how he was such a good father, involved in the GAA, a dedicated teacher - he is being painted as a pillar of the community and someone no one would ever suspect to be a killer of children.

Maybe he was desperately ill, maybe he snapped, maybe he couldn't go on. But he killed his family, and it's just a little bit sickening to see him being praised as a good and caring human being, while his wife and kids bodies lie butchered in their coffins.

It's because in Ireland there is still a ridiculous amount of deference towards teachers, especially in rural areas. They can do no wrong. It always made me :rolleyes: growing in a rural community.

strandroad

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Exactly and the Irish public is showing the media coverage on this up this evening on twitter. #hernamewasclodagh

Statement from the school... see who is mentioned and how:
http://i2.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/article8743537.ece/ALTERNATES//s458b/I160831_171411_2006803oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000098350457o.jpg

eviltwin

mhge wrote: »

Statement from the school... see who is mentioned and how:
http://i2.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/article8743537.ece/ALTERNATES//s458b/I160831_171411_2006803oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000098350457o.jpg

Wow :eek:

Tasden

mhge wrote: »

Statement from the school... see who is mentioned and how:
http://i2.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/article8743537.ece/ALTERNATES//s458b/I160831_171411_2006803oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000098350457o.jpg

Did the mam work at the same school?

GLaDOS

mhge wrote: »

Statement from the school... see who is mentioned and how:
http://i2.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/article8743537.ece/ALTERNATES//s458b/I160831_171411_2006803oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000098350457o.jpg

Fúcking hell

Lisha

mhge wrote: »

Statement from the school... see who is mentioned and how:
http://i2.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/article8743537.ece/ALTERNATES//s458b/I160831_171411_2006803oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000098350457o.jpg

I'm speechless that Clodagh's name was not used at all. They didn't even refer to her.

Lisha

Tasden wrote: »

Did the mam work at the same school?

No a different school

Hrududu

Jesus at this rate by the end of the week yer man will be the real victim in all this.

Green Peter

lillycakes2 wrote:

I do not understand why the Murderers wishes are being granted to only show his explanation to relatives of why he murdered 4 people??? The public should be entitled to know what his reasons were for murdered? Why is he being protected?

Do you want the Garda to call round and tell you personally, fcuk sake are you in the real world, there will be an inquest and it's held in public in due course, surely the family are next of kin not you or Joe public !

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Exactly and the Irish public is showing the media coverage on this up this evening on twitter. #hernamewasclodagh

Good. The press isn't known for it's good taste in reporting events like these, but piling the accolades on a child killer isn't acceptable.

I'm not saying the guy should be vilified either, he may have been desperately ill, but no one has to tell us what a great guy he was on one hand, and barely mention the wife and children he murdered on the other.

strandroad

Tasden wrote: »

Did the mam work at the same school?

No but she was the mother of their three pupils, wife of their teacher and died with them all?

Tasden

mhge wrote: »

No but she was the mother of their three pupils, wife of their teacher and died with them all?

I'm well aware of that.

lillycakes2

None of the Murderer's wishes should be granted. He didnt grant his family the wish to live !