5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

Autonomous Cowherd

demfad wrote: »

We do not want to see this happen again therefore a truthful assessment of why these cases happen is needed. Have you tried to find out about other cases like this in order to inform your 'opinion'? Have you actually read any studies on familicide?
Here is a summary of scholarly studies often using testimonies from murderers that botched up their suicide attempt and victims who survived.
Here is an excellent piece about Clarissa McCarthy who was murdered by her Father in 2013.

What this demonstrates is that mental health issues (present in a minority) of cases can explain the suicide but does not explain the murders. According to studies on this type of mass murder the killer usually believes that his family are somehow his 'property' and does not have a right to life if he cannot live. This rather than mental health is what connects these type of murders.

I actually wish that the murderer had botched this suicide. I'm sure when he had to stand up in a court of Law and explain in detail how he first butchered his wife, why he chose her first (presumably because he knew she would fight to her death for the lives of her children if he rattacked them first). He would have to recount how his wife suffered at the end of her life, Did he cruelly tell her his intentions for the children as she died? He would have to recount in detail the order of murder, how long each murder took, the reaction after the first cut, the realisation, did the others wake during the butchering, how would he rate the terror, the suffering?

Clearly if this man had survived the public reaction would be entirely different. It would be honest. He would be completely vilified.

Instead this man's terrible crimes will be excused as 'complicated'. It will be claimed he 'loved' his children when he, infact, butchered them like animals.
He will probably even be buried in the same graves as the people he executed. And as a result the next potential murderer, seeing that the public agree with his view of things, that there will be minimal consequences to his lagacy, will be more inclined to take that next horrific step.

PS "Something was clearly wrong in this family"

I find this a despicable comment on your behalf. You seem to be trying to hint at blame elsewhere in that family. The problem with that family was with the father who regarded the lives of other members of his family as worthless without his own.

Though your post is stark and some may see it as confrontational, I find myself agreeing with the overall thrust of it. The more details that emerge in this case make me believe there was an element of fore-thought. This was a dreadful crime. If the murderer had survived they would be one of the worst mass murderers in our history and duly reviled. I am weary of hearing that family matters are ''complicated''. When we marry people, or parent them, they are still and always autonomous humans. And I do not go along with the ''anyone can cross the line'' argument. Millions endure bereavement, estrangement, deceit, terminal diagnosis, and a myriad of other sufferings with dignity and wisdom. People who ''snap'' like this and savage their loved ones are not everyday people; most of us would never dream of harming another. The whole spiel about school teacher, sportsman, etc leaves me cold. But it does demonstrate the narrow parameters the 'public' use to assess the status of another person. If they were unemployed or homeless would the emotional arc be different? Horrible case.

demfad

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Ah come on now, I never said it was justifiable or acceptable. Just the opposite in fact.

All I said was surely the vitriolic hatred been shown towards the father would deter other men from coming forward for help.

Why would you want to ask for help, no matter how badly you want and need it, if all you see is hatred been projected towards other men who felt what you feel and who sadly acted on it?

I don't think you have the first clue what you are talking about.

It is not by other men like this coming forward that lives will be saved, it is by previous behaviour of these men being noticed and getting the people he might hurt away from him.

One common factor in all cases like this seems to be controlling possessive behaviour. He will do his best to disguise this, so symptoms should be identified.
From what I have seen to date it has been reported locally that for the most part the family kept to themselves and that there was 'never a sound' out of that house. This is highly unusual for a family with 3 children and would only seem to be possible if one person is exerting a great level of control over other family members.
It was also reported that they were a 'tight' family: you 'see one, you see them all'. That could also be a symtom of a controlling husband not allowing his wife to go anywhere alone.

Saving lives means first and foremost, making the people likely to be attacked safe. Telling the truth about what these men do, why they do it, how to recognise it and how to get other family members away and safe for him is whats needed here.
People should not view these things as 'domestic' and none of their business.
Pandering to the killers view that the slaughter was justified and giving him a dignified legacy only makes more slaughter likely.


Please show some common decency and substantiate your opinions with facts from previous cases of familicide etc.

Wigglepuppy

Shop40 wrote: »

Have to say I think it's significant that this happened the night before the father was due to return to teaching. My dad was a teacher who struggled deeply with this role (although this was a secondary school with tough to control kids). Now a completely different situation as he didn't resort to actions such as what happened in Cavan, but he did confide in me in later years that he contemplated suicide many times, how he planned he would do this etc. He suffered a complete breakdown when I was very young, never worked again and has suffered from depression since 25 years later. It completely changed our family and my childhood i.e. he stopped socialising with friends/his siblings, unleashed his mood swings daily, hit me, called me horrible names. I let men mistreat me all through my twenties as it was what I was used to. It was very tough growing up in a house where depression had its foot in the door.

I suppose, where I'm coming from is that teaching can be a very difficult profession and sometimes people can feel trapped, lose all reason and snap.

Try as I might, I can't make myself think this man was simply evil. Obviously he committed one of the worst acts possible, and he may not have been a good person (that I simply don't know) but for me it just keeps going back to a man who was extremely troubled and snapped, not wanting to leave his family behind. That doesn't change how horrific and unforgivable it is though.

I don't buy this "As a society we should do something about severe mental illness" stuff though - those kinds of proclamations always mean "Someone else should do something". There are much more supports for mentally ill people these days too - it's simply not as taboo as some say it is. There are individual prejudices and misunderstandings but as a society I think we are overall receptive and understanding.
And no matter what, he was still responsible for carrying out the act, and for seeking help beforehand.

demfad

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Try as I might, I can't make myself think this man was simply evil. Obviously he committed one of the worst acts possible, and he may not have been a good person (that I simply don't know) but for me it just keeps going back to a man who was extremely troubled and snapped, not wanting to leave his family behind. That doesn't change how horrific and unforgivable it is though.

The part in bold is what differenciates him from people who are just suicidal.

Why did he think his families lives would be worthless without his own? His wife and each one of those children had a right to live out their lives as seperate people.
The attitude that as the man of the house he holds power over the lesser family members is utterly despicable. He loved them as much as he loved his other possessions. Ultimately he believed they were worthless without him alive to use them.

And please justify why you cant say he was not a good person when you admit he committed one of the worst acts imaginable.
Are you suggesting good men would butcher their family with a knife?

Ceist_Beag

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But in a time when we are trying to encourage men to speak out about what they are feeling and going through, trying to paint the men who commit these acts, or think about committing these acts, as cold unfeeling monsters really does nothing to help the situation.

If anything, in my opinion anyway, all such reactions do is re-enforce the belief that a lot of men have that they cannot speak out, that they are not allowed to feel weak and ill and desperate.

With all due respect, that is a ridiculous statement. The vast majority of men who suffer from mental illness and are afraid to speak out should not be compared to this man and to associate one with the other is ludicrous.

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Try as I might, I can't make myself think this man was simply evil. Obviously he committed one of the worst acts possible, and he may not have been a good person (that I simply don't know) but for me it just keeps going back to a man who was extremely troubled and snapped, not wanting to leave his family behind.

I have a massive problem with this type of judgement. Lots of people have mental issues. Only a tiny few act the way this man did. If killing your wife and 3 children is not an act of evil then I don't know what is. This man was a monster and just because he killed himself at the end should not take away from what he did prior to that.

strandroad

demfad wrote: »

He will probably even be buried in the same graves as the people he executed. And as a result the next potential murderer, seeing that the public agree with his view of things, that there will be minimal consequences to his lagacy, will be more inclined to take that next horrific step.

It sounds harsh spelled out like this but I agree that it must be said.

There was an interview with Una Butler yesterday in which she said that there were 27 cases of family murder-suicide in Ireland in recent years. What it means is that there are people turning such thoughts in their heads right now, aceessing the media and absorbing the message. Possibly reading this thread for all we know.

Whatever dark cloud they live under, there is always this moment when they decide on the logistics and the tools, compose their letters etc. The also decide on the scope - whether to go alone or to obliterate their family with them.

If the message they receive is that they will be remembered no differently to a suicide victim, and the priest will talk about God's love, understanding and "reuniting families"... yes I believe that for some it can make a difference in which way they decide to go.

And I'm not saying this with hate because the anguish they go through must be torture. But I'm really disturbed by the suffering of the victims here, I especially can't stop thinking about the mother when she realised that she is losing her life and her boys will be next without her there to defend them.

To treat them as if they were just an extension of a suicide is to deny them the memory of their four full lives and futures they had as individual, realised people. They were not his to take, the crime, or mortal sin if you prefer needs to be spelled out and acknowledged, but it probably won't be and will drown is empathy instead.

Wigglepuppy

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Try as I might, I can't make myself think this man was simply evil. Obviously he committed one of the worst acts possible, and he may not have been a good person (that I simply don't know) but for me it just keeps going back to a man who was extremely troubled and snapped, not wanting to leave his family behind.

From what I've been reading lately, it's more often a case of them not wanting the family left behind to think or speak badly of them or a sense of ownership over the lives of the wife and children, rather than wanting them 'with' him. Who can ever know though?

I do think you're right, and that this man is likely to have been very, very, unwell and reached the point where he could not cope anymore, and for that I have some compassion for him even in the face of his crimes.

I just feel so sorry for his family of origin, trying to grieve the son/brother they loved, as well as the children their beloved son/brother murdered. That must be absolute hell.

I wonder why we have more compassion (and I do myself, but I'm not sure why) for a man who is suicidal and murders his family, than a person who is suicidal and murders strangers. I have much colder feelings and less understanding towards the pilot who suicided and murdered all his passengers by bringing down the plane, even though you'd imagine the killing of loved ones to be a much colder act of violence.

Wigglepuppy

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

I have a massive problem with this type of judgement. Lots of people have mental issues. Only a tiny few act the way this man did.

So you have a massive problem... yet you also say it can happen.
Yeah it is extremely rare, yes most people with severe mental illness don't do such a thing, but it's not impossible - as you acknowledge yourself.

Ceist_Beag

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

So you have a massive problem... yet you also say it can happen.
Yeah it is extremely rare, yes most people with severe mental illness don't do such a thing, but it's not impossible - as you acknowledge yourself.

The problem I have is that you conclude that it was just someone who snapped, that you cannot accept that he was evil. This suggests that it could happen to anyone suffering from mental illness. I cannot agree with that conclusion - I would expect that this man displayed warning signs in the past and that he was very different from most people (and I very much believe he was evil, just that he was good at hiding it).
I suppose the point I'm trying to make here is that this cannot just happen to people that suffer from mental illness - they cannot just snap and do something like this. This is in people like this man, they know it themselves and the vast majority of people who suffer from mental illness need not burden themselves with worry that they could do something like this some day. I think there is a danger that we under emphasise this point here.

demfad

demfad wrote: »

He will probably even be buried in the same graves as the people he executed. And as a result the next potential murderer, seeing that the public agree with his view of things, that there will be minimal consequences to his lagacy, will be more inclined to take that next horrific step.

I hope not. His love for his wife & children up to this point has been forfeited as a result of his despicable actions.

seamus

captbarnacles wrote: »

If he killed the neighbours kids and then himself would there be sympathy for him? Probably not so why when its his own children - is it because at some level they are seen as his 'property'?

No. It's because most people recognise that killing your own children and killing someone else's for most people are two acts which actually differ massively in the thought processes that might precipitate such an act.

At the most basic level, a rational person cannot imagine ever bringing harm to their own children and therefore have to attempt to imagine the mental barriers that were broken down in order for someone to commit such an act, the level of mental anguish someone must have been in.

Because of course, as human beings we have difficulty actually placing ourselves in someone else's state of mind. We try to imagine ourselves carrying out their actions, and what that would require. Which is not the same as actually being in that person's shoes.

In some cultures and some families it's acceptable to kill your own child for some honourable reason. Or as pointed out above, some parents may consider children "property" that they may do with as they see fit.

In this particular case I see a family of high achievers. Someone well ingrained in the local community with a facade to maintain. I've seen this issue quite often with depression and suicide - people who appear to "have it all" from the outside are actually placing themselves under immense pressure to maintain this facade and cannot consider a way in which they can keep up appearances while simultaneously getting help for their issues.

For those of us who don't really care about keeping up appearances, it's impossible to understand why it would be so important as to consider taking one's life over, but these things are never rational. To try and ascribe any rational motive to it, up to and including, "he's an evil monster" is folly.

captbarnacles

seamus wrote: »

No. It's because most people recognise that killing your own children and killing someone else's for most people are two acts which actually differ massively in the thought processes that might precipitate such an act.

At the most basic level, a rational person cannot imagine ever bringing harm to their own children and therefore have to attempt to imagine the mental barriers that were broken down in order for someone to commit such an act, the level of mental anguish someone must have been in.

Because of course, as human beings we have difficulty actually placing ourselves in someone else's state of mind. We try to imagine ourselves carrying out their actions, and what that would require. Which is not the same as actually being in that person's shoes.

In some cultures and some families it's acceptable to kill your own child for some honourable reason. Or as pointed out above, some parents may consider children "property" that they may do with as they see fit.

In this particular case I see a family of high achievers. Someone well ingrained in the local community with a facade to maintain. I've seen this issue quite often with depression and suicide - people who appear to "have it all" from the outside are actually placing themselves under immense pressure to maintain this facade and cannot consider a way in which they can keep up appearances while simultaneously getting help for their issues.

For those of us who don't really care about keeping up appearances, it's impossible to understand why it would be so important as to consider taking one's life over, but these things are never rational. To try and ascribe any rational motive to it, up to and including, "he's an evil monster" is folly.

That might be a popular consensus but that doesn't mean it is correct. From reading about these cases it appears the perpetrators tend to be selfish, controlling people with a hidden violent streak and plenty of pent-up rage.

People want to believe it was done out of perverse misguided love. Rubbish. Look at the violence of the deaths. Multiple stab wounds on each(apparently) That alone tells you what this act was. Rage.

seamus

captbarnacles wrote: »

That might be a popular consensus but that doesn't mean it is correct.

If you read the rest of my post, that's basically what I'm saying.

People put themselves in someone else's shoes. But it's them, their mindset, their thoughts. Not the thoughts of the perpetrator.

demfad

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

So you have a massive problem... yet you also say it can happen.
Yeah it is extremely rare, yes most people with severe mental illness don't do such a thing, but it's not impossible - as you acknowledge yourself.

Do you have any substantiation that this man sufferred from severe mental illness?

The point you are missing is that according to ACTUAL RESEARCH into cases of familicide where the murderer/victims survived: their testimonies show that only in a minority of cases is a mental illness responsible for the suicide and it is rarely ever responsible for the murders. DO YOU GET THIS?


IF you know something about this case that the rest of us don't or if you have substantiation for your position that familicides are the result of mental illness then please share. Otherwise your position has absolutely NO BASIS and your stating them is completely irresponsible.

demfad

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope not. His love for his wife & children up to this point has been forfeited as a result of his despicable actions.

His despicable actions reveal that he had no real love for his wife and children.
He loved them only as a selfish man might 'love' valuable possessions. Nobody else is getting them when he is gone. Nothing to forfeit.

tinz18

I actually understand why people find it hard to understand that there might have been no mental health issues involved or that he couldn't be evil. For a normal caring person, the thought is too horrible that there might be people out there that aren't normal like us. However there are, they're called sociopaths (more commonly known as psychopaths) and research has indicated that they can be as common as 1 in 25. These people don't have a conscious, they are brilliant at putting on an act, they can be charmers and seem perfectly normal even amazing to the outside world.

I came out of a relationship with one of these people and the thing I found hardest to deal with was that traumatic things he did to me were done just because he could, that the control he exerted over me was because he viewed me as an object/a plaything rather than someone with their own feelings. He'd fooled even me, I couldn't comprehend that I was with someone who'd deliberately be so evil but through therapy I'm seeing the truth. When he broke up with me he said that it was because he was getting near the point that he would seriously harm me...this is a guy most people think wouldn't harm a fly to the point of being pathetic. I took this as a sign that I was a terrible person (hence the therapy) when all my friends and family would say I'm too nice for my own good.

This might not be the case with the BJD case but I have a horrible feeling there will be more coming out. My heart goes out to the family, friends and community, things like these affect so many people in so many ways and are felt for years. Yes mental illness could play a part, there's no ruling one way or another and until its investigated I reserve my judgement. But for everyone who's saying that mental issues are a dead cert - don't rule out that he could of done it "just because he could" and it was a final act of control over beautiful people he believed he owned.

Omackeral

On mental illness. I've found that in the last couple of years it's never been more 'acceptable' to admit you suffer from it. There's less stigma towards it. You regularly hear the phrase It's OK not to be OK and other such things. Just this year, Shamrock Rovers player Mikey Drennan came out publicly and said he was suffering from depression and would be taking a break from the game. He got nothing but support from everyone in the League of Ireland and I saw no barbs thrown his way. Fans of other teams contacted him and wished him the best. If that were 15 years ago, he's have been ridiculed. Attitudes are thankfully changing. Obviously mental illness isn't a definitive singular disease and there's varying degrees of depression etc but I really feel now, more than ever, men especially can open up on issues. Hopefully that message can resonate with people if they ever feel a horrible cloud. Talking absolutely is the best way to start to get help.

Amanda.ie

tinz18 wrote: »

I actually understand why people find it hard to understand that there might have been no mental health issues involved or that he couldn't be evil. For a normal caring person, the thought is too horrible that there might be people out there that aren't normal like us. However there are, they're called sociopaths (more commonly known as psychopaths) and research has indicated that they can be as common as 1 in 25. These people don't have a conscious, they are brilliant at putting on an act, they can be charmers and seem perfectly normal even amazing to the outside world.

I came out of a relationship with one of these people and the thing I found hardest to deal with was that traumatic things he did to me were done just because he could, that the control he exerted over me was because he viewed me as an object/a plaything rather than someone with their own feelings. He'd fooled even me, I couldn't comprehend that I was with someone who'd deliberately be so evil but through therapy I'm seeing the truth. When he broke up with me he said that it was because he was getting near the point that he would seriously harm me...this is a guy most people think wouldn't harm a fly to the point of being pathetic. I took this as a sign that I was a terrible person (hence the therapy) when all my friends and family would say I'm too nice for my own good.

Reading that is like reading my own life, nearly a year on and I still go over things in my head, why I allowed all the ****ty things to happen.
I had begun to take control which he didn't like so of course had to be the bully etc you know how it goes.

Can you tell me why I would still let him back in my life?
I know he will not change because sociopaths don't change.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/home/ovc-20198975

Abti-social personality disorder.

Just putting that out there, after reading tinz18's post, above, regarding her sociopathic ex.

It's a psychological condition, but at the same time, I'd be very wary of letting someone 'off the hook' for carrying out an act of such wretched violence in the name of a condition that can be controlled and can be treated. There are lots of people walking around with ASPD who are in control of their condition. Having a psychological condition of this nature does not liberate you from your personal responsibilities.

In the absence of outright insanity, which appears not to be the case, I find it very very difficult to think of any reason why Alan Hawe's guilt should be abated.

SEPT 23 1989

Buried in the same grave?

They wouldn't be buried in the same county if that was my daughter and grandchildren

JCX BXC

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Buried in the same grave?

They wouldn't be buried in the same county if that was my daughter and grandchildren

The man who drove straight into a truck near oola in a murder suicide is also buried with his child.

Hrududu

Imagine visiting your grandchildrens grave knowing their killer was in there too

Amanda.ie

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Buried in the same grave?

They wouldn't be buried in the same county if that was my daughter and grandchildren

I wouldn't care if they were in the same grave tbh if it were my family. He is still their father regardless. No parent wants to hurt their children but we cant know his state of mind at the time. Nothing will bring them back and holding a grudge hating him wont make the pain any easier for both their families.

sadie06

We don't know what was in the note he left. I'm sure its contents somehow influenced the decision to bury them all together.

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Buried in the same grave?

They wouldn't be buried in the same county if that was my daughter and grandchildren

I wonder who decides? Alan Hawe's family or his wife's family?

Since Alan Hawe died last, wouldn't his parents be next of kin for the purposes of funeral arrangements?

In practice, I suppose it's a joint decision. Nobody is likely to be antagonistic at this time, so I assume both families are in agreement (?)

SEPT 23 1989

Amanda.ie wrote: »

I wouldn't care if they were in the same grave tbh if it were my family. He is still their father regardless. No parent wants to hurt their children but we cant know his state of mind at the time. Nothing will bring them back and holding a grudge hating him wont make the pain any easier for both their families.

What sort of father murders his innocent children

If that was my daughter he killed I would hold a major grudge

Which I think would be a fair reaction

captbarnacles

Amanda.ie wrote: »

I wouldn't care if they were in the same grave tbh if it were my family. He is still their father regardless. No parent wants to hurt their children but we cant know his state of mind at the time. Nothing will bring them back and holding a grudge hating him wont make the pain any easier for both their families.

Eh? that would be lovely if true but....

Amanda.ie

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

What sort of father murders his innocent children

If that was my daughter he killed I would hold a major grudge

Which I think would be a fair reaction

It is a fair reaction but what does it achieve?

I don't know why he murdered his sons and we will probably never know why.

purplecow1977

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

What sort of father murders his innocent children

If that was my daughter he killed I would hold a major grudge

Which I think would be a fair reaction

A father that was not in a 'normal' state of mind I guess.
It's difficult to feel sympathy, but we don't know all the facts, and never will probably understand what would drive someone to do such a thing.

It's an absolutely heartbreaking situation that is incomprehensible. I am not a religious person, but I certainly will keep them & their extended family/friends in my prayers tonight.

Tasden

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

What sort of father murders his innocent children

If that was my daughter he killed I would hold a major grudge

Which I think would be a fair reaction

A woman in work was discussing it and she seemed to be of the opinion that whatever was making him think life was too much for him, he also thought it was too much for the family and that he was "saving" them.
Much like when people commit suicide they see it as the only way out, he saw this as their only way out.
I hadn't thought of it that way til she said it (in much better words than mine). I don't know what to think of it. Logically I know I'd never be able to hurt my child, but if I was in such a state that I thought the only way out was suicide would I feel like she needed saving from that too? I obviously can't see it that way now but if I had psychological issues and was genuinely in that state of mind.. I don't know. It's mind boggling. The more you try to understand it the more it makes no sense, but then if there was psychological conditions he wasn't thinking logically. I mean there are certain conditions that can make you hallucinate/genuinely believe certain things are your reality etc, but he left such a logical note on the door about the guards... I don't know enough about psychological orders to even think about it. It's just really tragic, the poor kids.