SFC Final - Dublin v Mayo - *Read Mod Note in post #1 & #1393*

Slattsy

You don't put lentils on coddle !!

(although carrots are allowed)

gormdubhgorm

seligehgit wrote: »

I'd agree,imo this team is quite a bit superior to the 2011 team.

That 2011 Dublin team were very lucky to win that Sam.

It was an all-ireland they should have lost.

Whereas 2012 was an all-ireland they should have won.

I think the 2014 loss to Donegal in the semis was the making of this Dublin team.

Which is why you see a much more controlled patient style of play in games where necessary.
Plus they have the skill to control and keep ball and make it look very easy.

They also have the speed and incision to attack when required.

Rock pops over the frees he gets from these runs others make.

Then when the opposition are behind Dublin can attack and counter at great speed.

It is similar to the Donegal style (when it worked) except not as dull and with much better players and the forwards are given licence to attack when they see fit.

The other difference with the Donegal team is a that the Dublin subs are of better quality. There are no grey heads on the Dublin bench like Christy Toye.

Also Paddy Andrews has great movement if he starts/when he comes on and he creates space for the other forwards with his selfless running.

Mayo need to climb the reek a few times before this game. Because I honestly cannot see how they can get at this Dublin team bar riling up Connolly/Philly and hoping for sendings off!

Lamping the ball up to Aidan O'Shea is their only other tactic but I think Cooper and COS are capable of quieting him.

Mayo will give away too many fouls and hit too many wides it is in the Mayo GAA DNA it is just the way they do things.

If Mayo had a real flair player like a Ciaran McDonald that can kick points from all angles or a great high fielder like a McHale, or a creative player with a big Moustache like Willie Joe, then I might be a little concerned. But I am not in the slightest because they don't.

All I know is Mayo fans that will be at the final will be privileged to see see this Dublin team and they will be able to tell their grandkids how good they were.

Bunny Colvin

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

All I know is Mayo fans that will be at the final will be privileged to see see this Dublin team and they will be able to tell their grandkids how good they were.

Past30Now

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That 2011 Dublin team were very lucky to win that Sam.

It was an all-ireland they should have lost.

Whereas 2012 was an all-ireland they should have won.

I think the 2012 loss to Denegal in the semis was the making of this Dublin team.

We lost to Mayo in the 2012 semi final by 3 points. The loss to Donegal was two years later, and was the day Johnny Cooper was nominally centre back and ROC was dragged out of position to compete with McGee and McFadden for high ball at centre back. I agree that this loss in 2014 was the makings of this team, in that we haven't got caught out as badly since.

Since that semi final defeat we played Mayo in the 2013 Final, which we won by a point, and the 2015 semi final, which we initially drew, and subsequently won the replay by 7 points.

In four matches over four years we've won two, lost one and drawn one championship match. Overall points difference of 5 points, or 1.25 points per match.

Since that semi final loss in 2012, we've played Mayo in the league on 4 occasions, winning three and drawing one. Excluding 2015, when we hammered them by 14 points, the average margin has been two points.

Eight games, excluding one outlier, average winning margin of less than two points per game. Two good teams. Mayo haven't been great this year, need to perform to their best, but any idea that we just have to turn up is nonsense.

ProudDUB

Menoetius wrote: »

I suppose that ends the entire forum so, no point anymore

I never said there is no point. Isn't it great craic to be able to waste time at work, or come on here immediately after a game & talk about our favourite past time, hobby, or however we classify our love of GAA & our county. But that still doesn't mean that what we say here, has any impact on the outcome of games. It doesn't.

Menoetius

ProudDUB wrote: »

I never said there is no point. Isn't it great craic to be able to waste time at work, or come on here immediately after a game & talk about our favourite past time, hobby, or however we classify our love of GAA & our county. But that still doesn't mean that what we say here, has any impact on the outcome of games. It doesn't.

Thanks ProudDUB, you've re-instated my faith, I had a moment of weakness back then

Fr Tod Umptious

Just found the old Kerry v Mayo thread from 2006, won't link it cos I'm on the phone but its only 10 pages long, and there was a fair bit of Mayo optimism pre match then also.

seligehgit

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Just found the old Kerry v Mayo thread from 2006, won't link it cos I'm on the phone but its only 10 pages long, and there was a fair bit of Mayo optimism pre match then also.

Do you think there is the same levels of optimism this time around Father Tod?I don't honestly think there is,I'd suggest the polar opposite...Realism bordering on pessimism.The majority of the fanbase are aware of the task that faces us and more hoping for than expecting a victory.

Fr Tod Umptious

I suppose I just looking at it from my own perspective.

Even though I know full well Dublin are the best team in the country and that Mayo have played in dribs and drabs, I still find ways to think of how Mayo will win this game, 90% of my total daily thoughts right now are related to Mayo winning.

Realistically they will probably lose, but I find it hard to day dream that the way I can day dream them winning.

I felt the same in '06.

seligehgit

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I suppose I just looking at it from my own perspective.

Even though I know full well Dublin are the best team in the country and that Mayo have played in dribs and drabs, I still find ways to think of how Mayo will win this game, 90% of my total daily thoughts right now are related to Mayo winning.

Realistically they will probably lose, but I find it hard to day dream that the way I can day dream them winning.

I felt the same in '06.

Believe me 90% of my day is finding rational bases for a Mayo win....dreaming......dreaming of unabounded joy.Then reality hits me.:(

Dirty Dingus McGee

Surely Mayo need to try Barry Moran or Aidan O'Shea (or both) in the full forward line and go long.

Dublins weakest line is their full back line and they were in a bit of trouble on a few occasions under high balls against Kerry.


O'Shea and Moran won't really be as suited to midfield against Dublin as they are not mobile enough and I think if Mayo try to play through Dublin they are not good enough to beat them they need to score at least 3 goals to win this game in opinion.

I don't think they'll have the balls to do it but I think they should go for broke and bombard Dublin with long balls and do it properly not the half arsed effort they made last year with this tactic against Dublin.

I think one way to beat Dublin (or any team that are better than you) is to not have as much football played in the game and bypass a lot of the field.

gormdubhgorm

Past30Now wrote: »

We lost to Mayo in the 2012 semi final by 3 points. The loss to Donegal was two years later,

I hit 2 instead of 4! although the irony is lovely since 2012 was the year Mayo beat Dublin in the semi.

The 2006 Defeat to mayo in the semis was the one that really sickened me. The time Mayo had the nerve to warm up at the hill end.

I often wonder if Mayo had not done that, or if Dublin just ignored them prematch, would result have been different?

PARlance

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Surely Mayo need to try Barry Moran or Aidan O'Shea (or both) in the full forward line and go long.

Dublins weakest line is their full back line and they were in a bit of trouble on a few occasions under high balls against Kerry.


O'Shea and Moran won't really be as suited to midfield against Dublin as they are not mobile enough and I think if Mayo try to play through Dublin they are not good enough to beat them they need to score at least 3 goals to win this game in opinion.

I don't think they'll have the balls to do it but I think they should go for broke and bombard Dublin with long balls and do it properly not the half arsed effort they made last year with this tactic against Dublin.

I think one way to beat Dublin (or any team that are better than you) is to not have as much football played in the game and bypass a lot of the field.

Where does Andy Morn fit into the equation?

corny

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Surely Mayo need to try Barry Moran or Aidan O'Shea (or both) in the full forward line and go long.

Dublins weakest line is their full back line and they were in a bit of trouble on a few occasions under high balls against Kerry.

Thats said so often now people just don't question it. Actually it was said even when ROC was in there. Further digression....ROC has actually become a much better player in the national media by moving abroad. Its elevated his standing something fierce. Baffling stuff.

Anyway, Donaghy won one ball against Dublin. He lost more than that to McMahon. Geaney won ball but he won it with good movement so it does nothing to further the notion that Dublin are weak under the high ball.

Cooper has arguably been our best performer this year. McMahon was stellar in the semi and although Byrne had a bit of trouble with Geaney he's had a good season overall. I'd argue Mayo don't have anyone as threatening as Geaney anyway.

So, weakest line? The rest aren't bad i'll give you that but no way in hell are the 3 lads back there are suspect.

Dirty Dingus McGee

corny wrote: »

Thats said so often now people just don't question it. Actually it was said even when ROC was in there. Further digression....ROC has actually become a much better player in the national media by moving abroad. Its elevated his standing something fierce. Baffling stuff.

Anyway, Donaghy won one ball against Dublin. He lost more than that to McMahon. Geaney won ball but he won it with good movement so it does nothing to further the notion that Dublin are weak under the high ball.

Cooper has arguably been our best performer this year. McMahon was stellar in the semi and although Byrne had a bit of trouble with Geaney he's had a good season overall. I'd argue Mayo don't have anyone as threatening as Geaney anyway.

So, weakest line? The rest aren't bad i'll give you that but no way in hell are the 3 lads back there are suspect.

It's still there weakest line.I'm not saying it is necessarily weak but it's an area they are more vulnerable in than any other sector of the field.

Kerry should have try the long ball tactic more often it worked a few times in the first half and they didn't do it often enough in my opinion.

Also as I mentioned in my post one way to get the better of a team that is better than you is bypass a lot of the field and go long and Mayo are not as good as Dublin and trying to play through them and beat them playing "normal" football won't work in my opinion.

Dirty Dingus McGee

PARlance wrote: »

Where does Andy Morn fit into the equation?

In their feeding of the big man/men, Cillian O'Connor at Centre forward perhaps.

corny

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Kerry should have try the long ball tactic more often it worked a few times in the first half and they didn't do it often enough in my opinion.

It worked twice. Donaghy won one ball cleanly and shipped it to Geaney for a score. Mahers hail mary that lead to the goal was the other one. Dublin must have disrupted 10 long balls by comparison. Thats not an exaggeration either. I checked. I don't know how you can justify giving the ball away 10 times to a side like Dublin if all you get is two scores. Thats wasting five possessions for every score. Madness. Mayo won't fair better if history is anything to go by.

Kerry were much more dangerous when they focused on accurately moving the ball imo. The long balls and the solo running in the second half handed Dublin a lot of easy turnovers.

Two and one

From my memory long ball was put into Donaghy twice. One he caught and laid off, the other was a penalty appeal. Donaghy was out the field for all the other long ball efforts and for some reason the majority were landed on Gooch!

Dirty Dingus McGee

corny wrote: »

It worked twice. Donaghy won one ball cleanly and shipped it to Geaney for a score. Mahers hail mary that lead to the goal was the other one. Dublin must have disrupted 10 long balls by comparison. Thats not an exaggeration either. I checked. I don't know how you can justify giving the ball away 10 times to a side like Dublin if all you get is two scores. Thats wasting five possessions for every score. Madness. Mayo won't fair better if history is anything to go by.

Kerry were much more dangerous when they focused on accurately moving the ball imo. The long balls and the solo running in the second half handed Dublin a lot of easy turnovers.

But Donaghy wasn't inside for a lot of the game so the long balls were never going to be effective if he wasn't the one they were directed to.He's a complete waste in midfield and I couldn't understand why he wasn't kept in there.

In my opinion Mayo aren't good enough to beat Dublin playing proper football though, they have to at least try something different and give themselves a target so that of they can't move the ball through Dublin they have something to hit inside.

PARlance

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

In their feeding of the big man/men, Cillian O'Connor at Centre forward perhaps.

I've mentioned it in the Mayo thread a while back but I hate that idea tbh. I wouldn't be adverse to giving Barry and Aidan a go in there but I would see it as something to do in the final quarter, once Andy's legs have gone you could bring in Barry.

Some reasons why I hate it

Andy Moran has been one of our best players this year, making smart runs, taking responsibility, winning ball. Crowding the FF line will only hinder this. Playing 2 big men beside him will mean it's nearly all high ball.
What team can afford the luxury of a 3 man full forward line, especially vs Dublin.
Cillian isn't the most mobile, he needs to be close to and feeding off the FF line. He would be wasted tracking Dublin's half backs.
The 2 big men idea is often suggested and rarely delivers, if it was a winning formula, then it would be a template by now.
It's fairly easy to defend against.
It depends on quality ball, we proved last year that we can't deliver this to one big man. See Aidan O'Shea's frustration in the replay last year.
Dublin play a free flowing style of football. As a result, they can be run at. We've had success when doing so in the past.

DDC1990

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote:

In their feeding of the big man/men, Cillian O'Connor at Centre forward perhaps.

Andy Moran wouldn't be that fond of passing.

The last pass I recall him giving went over the bar from an impossible angle against Galway 2 years ago!

Stoner

DDC1990 wrote:

The last pass I recall him giving went over the bar from an impossible angle against Galway 2 years ago!

Lol he's was playing well at the start of the year and was still a hungah , however I think the lads have been working on him alright as his link up play seems to have improved.
He was a terrible man for not passing though,

corny

PARlance wrote: »

I've mentioned it in the Mayo thread a while back but I hate that idea tbh. I wouldn't be adverse to giving Barry and Aidan a go in there but I would see it as something to do in the final quarter, once Andy's legs have gone you could bring in Barry.

Some reasons why I hate it

Andy Moran has been one of our best players this year, making smart runs, taking responsibility, winning ball. Crowding the FF line will only hinder this. Playing 2 big men beside him will mean it's nearly all high ball.
What team can afford the luxury of a 3 man full forward line, especially vs Dublin.
Cillian isn't the most mobile, he needs to be close to and feeding off the FF line. He would be wasted tracking Dublin's half backs.
The 2 big men idea is often suggested and rarely delivers, if it was a winning formula, then it would be a template by now.
It's fairly easy to defend against.
It depends on quality ball, we proved last year that we can't deliver this to one big man. See Aidan O'Shea's frustration in the replay last year.
Dublin play a free flowing style of football. As a result, they can be run at. We've had success when doing so in the past.

Agree with all of that.

Just to add, saying we need to play quality ball in on top of the big lads and going out and doing it are two different things. Its hard when the defender knows all he has to do is break it. The attacker has to win it cleanly. Cooper and especially McMahon are not easily brushed off.

If Mayo focus on the long ball stuff they'd waste loads of possession. AOS and Moran are well capable of showing for the ball and winning it. Plus Mayo are notorious for hard running from midfield. Stupid to let the opposition put you off your strengths.

PARlance

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

But Donaghy wasn't inside for a lot of the game so the long balls were never going to be effective if he wasn't the one they were directed to.He's a complete waste in midfield and I couldn't understand why he wasn't kept in there.

In my opinion Mayo aren't good enough to beat Dublin playing proper football though, they have to at least try something different and give themselves a target so that of they can't move the ball through Dublin they have something to hit inside.

Iirc Donaghy was inside for the first 20 mins or so and Kerry were brutal. There were plenty of hopeless balls that went in and it was looking very bleak for Kerry at the time. Dublin should have had more of a lead at that stage.

Mayo got the draw last year by throwing everthing at Dublin. We then decided to lump long balls into O'Shea in the replay. I think we got one score from it in the first half. It was painful to watch.

We do have something different this year. We've a manager, who against Tipp & Tyrone, showed us that he can study the opposition and make an astute tactical change. For years it was "what you see is what you get" from us, too predictable.

Bunny Colvin

DDC1990 wrote: »

Andy Moran wouldn't be that fond of passing.

The last pass I recall him giving went over the bar from an impossible angle against Galway 2 years ago!

Some of his passing has been great to watch this year. I remember one diagonal long ball he played against Kildare to set up a chance, unreal technique and vision to even spot the man, one of those where you had to be there to appreciate it. Sometimes he can be guilty of not laying it off but he's having some season and to think some people didn't even want him on the panel this year! Sunday week will probably be the last chance for Andy to win it, some goes for other lads on the team.

PARlance

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

Sunday week will probably be the last chance for Andy to win it, some goes for other lads on the team.

He would be one hell of a loss to the squad next year. I would keep him in the squad without hesitation.

I'm always surprised when I think about the age profile of this team. They've a lot of miles under the belt over the last 6 years but it's not an old team at all. It could even be described as peak! (Ok I'm getting a little excited).

There are less than a handful of starters over 30 iirc?

Clarke, doesn't really matter.
Boyle, Higgins, Seamie, Barry Moran are all just the wrong side of 30 I think. Still a year or two left there easily.
Andy is 33ish, hasn't shown this year.
Donal looks 37 but is about 27.
Dillon, only coming on in cameos so not an issue but could be his last, his experience will be a big loss when that time comes.

I've probably missed someone obvious but it's getting late. I don't think age is an issue, mileage maybe.

Dirty Dingus McGee

PARlance wrote: »

Iirc Donaghy was inside for the first 20 mins or so and Kerry were brutal. There were plenty of hopeless balls that went in and it was looking very bleak for Kerry at the time. Dublin should have had more of a lead at that stage.

Mayo got the draw last year by throwing everthing at Dublin. We then decided to lump long balls into O'Shea in the replay. I think we got one score from it in the first half. It was painful to watch.

We do have something different this year. We've a manager, who against Tipp & Tyrone, showed us that he can study the opposition and make an astute tactical change. For years it was "what you see is what you get" from us, too predictable.

But that's the point.They didn't do it properly, the long ball tactic can work if it's done properly.

I just think Mayo need to do something different to get the better of Dublin because Dublin are better than Mayo all over the field.

DDC1990

Bunny Colvin wrote:

Some of his passing has been great to watch this year. I remember one diagonal long ball he played against Kildare to set up a chance, unreal technique and vision to even spot the man, one of those where you had to be there to appreciate it. Sometimes he can be guilty of not laying it off but he's having some season and to think some people didn't even want him on the panel this year! Sunday week will probably be the last chance for Andy to win it, some goes for other lads on the team.

Ah yeah I know, I'm just having a laugh.
He was the same old Andy vs Fermanagh but since then he's been a revelation. A tpugh ball winner inside to take the focus off Cillian, who has been doing a lot more tracking back and defensive work this year.

The key for Mayo is how they will get AOS into the match and on the ball, without putting him in a position where he has to tire himself out chasing back.

The hybrid Midfield, CF, FF role that Donaghy played against Dublin might suit him. Having the extra runner from midfield like Vaughan will certainly help him in his defensive capacity.

PARlance

DDC1990 wrote: »

Andy Moran wouldn't be that fond of passing.
The last pass I recall him giving went over the bar from an impossible angle against Galway 2 years ago!

DDC1990 wrote: »

Ah yeah I know, I'm just having a laugh.

It was post of the week for me tbf. Still smirking at it.

DDC1990 wrote: »

He was the same old Andy vs Fermanagh but since then he's been a revelation. A tpugh ball winner inside to take the focus off Cillian,

In fairness to him, he was brought on late enough in the Fermanagh game. A game that we were losing for most of it, I think we were behind when he came on. At that moment in time, he was seen as nothing more than an impact sub by most. He was a little eager when he came on, you could probably describe him as excitable and he did try to rush a few things but overall I think he definitely showed enough to prove he deserved a starting spot. He got it and hasn't looked back since. There were a good few of us calling for him to start based on the Fermanagh game.

harpsman

corny wrote: »

It worked twice. Donaghy won one ball cleanly and shipped it to Geaney for a score. Mahers hail mary that lead to the goal was the other one. Dublin must have disrupted 10 long balls by comparison. Thats not an exaggeration either. I checked. I don't know how you can justify giving the ball away 10 times to a side like Dublin if all you get is two scores. Thats wasting five possessions for every score. Madness. Mayo won't fair better if history is anything to go by.

Kerry were much more dangerous when they focused on accurately moving the ball imo. The long balls and the solo running in the second half handed Dublin a lot of easy turnovers.

Funny, when i was watching the game i said to the wife after 20 minutes that kerry need to stop the long ball in as it wasnt working. Then at half time the "analysts" said kerry need to use more of the long ball. So glad it wasnt just me that thought it wasnt working.

As an aside back in 2013 kerry brought on Donaghy in the 2nd half and started hitting in long balls which failed, costing them the game. Now it might be the case that they just werent fit enough to play like they did in the first half for a whole game-Dublin and probably Mayo are the only teams who can keep that tempo up for 75 minutes. In 2014 they brought Donaghy on as a last throw of the dice and he got them the goal which saved them, however that was against Mayos dodgy full back line which has conceded bad goals at crucial times in almost every big match theyve played in the last 5 years-hopefully their new system will prevent that in the final but I wouldnt bet on it.

Lastly(yawn i know) the long ball had Donegal in big trouble in the '14 final and nearly finished the game in the first 15 minutes