Knife Attack London

Timberrrrrrrr

Widdershins wrote: »

Are you isis's public relations person ?

When all else fails :rolleyes:

Samaris

I think it's pushing it a bit too far to either claim that ISIS has -nothing- to do with religion or that it has -everything- to do with religion.

There is absolutely no denying that the people carrying out the attacks are motivated by the words of their leaders and the extremist religion they've been sucked into. Their version of their religion doesn't impact many ordinary practicing Muslims who don't reckon that disagreeing with their god is a cause for jihad.

People are complicated creatures and can have more than one motivation. I am suspicious of the leaders claiming it's a religious war and that people should blow themselves and innocent people up because heaven and all that, mostly because I note they're not blowing themselves up, they're just using the easily lead idiots whom they can brainwash with their "higher cause" and "noble" whatevers.

Yes, I do think there is a cynical use of Islam to rope people in. It's an ancient pattern and has been seen many times before. People have a dumb spot when it comes to religion (or nation) telling them to do evil things for the "greater good". That does not mean that the people actually -doing- it aren't intensely, maniacally, religious. Zealots, in fact.

There are also probably some in it for more personal revenge, if they've lost their home or family members to airstrikes. That's human nature. And whatever their own deepest convictions, they'll probably be fairly okay shouting the words and ideals of people who -also- want to blow those responsible up. Although they attack civilians who had nothing to do with it, its easy enough to see how they'd justify it to themselves - X didn't care about civilians when they destroyed my home, therefore, their own civilians are a target.

We're talking about people here. It's rarely all or nothing.

LuckyRoche

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I haven't heard anyone suggest it was. Have you? In fact, many people in this thread alone have suggested the issues are unrelated. Immigration isn't contributing to these attacks so stopping it in the name of preventing attacks is wrong.

Nearly all the attackers are first or second generation immigrants. How do you work out that it has nothing to do with immigration?

Widdershins

Samaris wrote: »

I think it's pushing it a bit too far to either claim that ISIS has -nothing- to do with religion or that it has -everything- to do with religion.

There is absolutely no denying that the people carrying out the attacks are motivated by the words of their leaders and the extremist religion they've been sucked into. Their version of their religion doesn't impact many ordinary practicing Muslims who don't reckon that disagreeing with their god is a cause for jihad.

People are complicated creatures and can have more than one motivation. I am suspicious of the leaders claiming it's a religious war and that people should blow themselves and innocent people up because heaven and all that, mostly because I note they're not blowing themselves up, they're just using the easily lead idiots whom they can brainwash with their "higher cause" and "noble" whatevers.

Yes, I do think there is a cynical use of Islam to rope people in. It's an ancient pattern and has been seen many times before. People have a dumb spot when it comes to religion (or nation) telling them to do evil things for the "greater good". That does not mean that the people actually -doing- it aren't intensely, maniacally, religious. Zealots, in fact.

There are also probably some in it for more personal revenge, if they've lost their home or family members to airstrikes. That's human nature. And whatever their own deepest convictions, they'll probably be fairly okay shouting the words and ideals of people who -also- want to blow those responsible up. Although they attack civilians who had nothing to do with it, its easy enough to see how they'd justify it to themselves - X didn't care about civilians when they destroyed my home, therefore, their own civilians are a target.

We're talking about people here. It's rarely all or nothing.

Yes . Recruits will have come to that point for various reasons , motivations, and through various enticements , and because of various circumstances in their own lives . That has always been the way with people who are drawn into cults and nefarious groups .

The main thing distinguishing i.s from revenge terrorists is the fact that they aim to create a caliphate .

Widdershins

Widdershins wrote: »

Yes . Recruits will have come to that point for various reasons , motivations, and through various enticements , and because of various circumstances in their own lives . That has always been the way with people who are drawn into cults and nefarious groups .

The main thing distinguishing i.s from revenge terrorists is the fact that they aim to create a caliphate .

I sincerely doubt most of the vast majority of their ranks give a damn about this.

Little CuChulainn

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Nearly all the attackers are first or second generation immigrants. How do you work out that it has nothing to do with immigration?

It has nothing to do with current immigration because they are not recent immigrants. Stopping the immigration of refugees now won't stop terrorism now.

Widdershins

Deleted User wrote: »

I sincerely doubt most of the vast majority of their ranks give a damn about this.

Ok.

Little CuChulainn

Widdershins wrote: »

Yes . Recruits will have come to that point for various reasons , motivations, and through various enticements , and because of various circumstances in their own lives . That has always been the way with people who are drawn into cults and nefarious groups .

The main thing distinguishing i.s from revenge terrorists is the fact that they aim to create a caliphate .

ETA wanted an independent country. IRA wanted a United Ireland. most terrorism is based on territorial disputes.

LuckyRoche

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It has nothing to do with current immigration because they are not recent immigrants. Stopping the immigration of refugees now won't stop terrorism now.

Germany was hit last month by a shooting spree, an axe attack, a suicide bombing and a machete assault that left 13 people dead. Three of the four assaults involved refugees. The subject of this thread was Somali. The guy that murdered 85 in Nice was North African.

Widdershins

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

ETA wanted an independent country. IRA wanted a United Ireland. most terrorism is based on territorial disputes.

None of them wanted to expand a caliphate .

Timberrrrrrrr

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Germany was hit last month by a shooting spree, an axe attack, a suicide bombing and a machete assault that left 13 people dead. Three of the four assaults involved refugees. The subject of this thread was Somali. The guy that murdered 85 in Nice was North African.

Now tell us how long each of those attackers were residents in the respective countries.

Mary63

Well actually,the Afghan who attacked innocent tourists on a Train In Germany was a recent immigrant and he was fostered by a German family.

Some of the terrorists who attacked the concert hall and the restaurants in Paris had travelled into Europe as refugees their details were taken at border points.

Stopping uncontrolled immigration most certainly will stop terrorism now and in the future.What we are mostly seeing now in third generation terrorism being caused by radicalised losers with not much brain power and some are homosexuals attacking gay clubs.In twenty years time if we go on the way we are going we are going to see attacks by fourth generation terrorists and the existing Muslim communities as far as I known haven't acknowledged how much their self segregation has led to the current situation.

Little CuChulainn

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Germany was hit last month by a shooting spree, an axe attack, a suicide bombing and a machete assault that left 13 people dead. Three of the four assaults involved refugees. The subject of this thread was Somali. The guy that murdered 85 in Nice was North African.

Are you talking about the Munich shooting spree?

LuckyRoche

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Are you talking about the Munich shooting spree?

Second generation Iranian. The other three attacks were carried out by 'refugees'. The attack in London was carried out by a Somali. The Nice attack was carried out by a North African.

Tell us again how these attacks have nothing to do with immigration.

Timberrrrrrrr

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Second generation Iranian

Born in Munich

The other three attacks were carried out by 'refugees'. The attack in London was carried out by a Somali.

Lived in London since he was 5

The Nice attack was carried out by a North African.

True, lived in France 11 years

Tell us again how these attacks have nothing to do with immigration.

Tell us how stopping immigration now will stop attacks by people who have been here decades?

Widdershins

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Second generation Iranian. The other three attacks were carried out by 'refugees'. The attack in London was carried out by a Somali. The Nice attack was carried out by a North African.

Tell us again how these attacks have nothing to do with immigration.

If this is legitimate you can add it to that list. Allegedly another incident of media cover up
http://dailycaller.com/2016/08/03/media-fails-to-report-gang-firebombing-paris-bus-while-yelling-allah-akbar/

Butters1979

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You'require the one denying civilian deaths by drone strike has no significance not me.

Any sign of those statistics on Pakistani terrorist attacks in the west?

Drone strikes is a reaction to Islamic terrorism, not a cause. Tell me, what country was the west bombing at September 11th? Or when the Lockerby bombing went down.

Timberrrrrrrr

Widdershins wrote: »

If this is legitimate you can add it to that list. Allegedly another incident of media cover up
http://dailycaller.com/2016/08/03/media-fails-to-report-gang-firebombing-paris-bus-while-yelling-allah-akbar/

There's the thing, any further reports of it?

Butters1979

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Born in Munich



Lived in London since he was 5



True, lived in France 11 years



Tell us how stopping immigration now will stop attacks by people who have been here decades?

Muslim migrants, or the offspring of Muslim migrants. It's the same problem.
Stopping immigration won't prevent attacks from those already here, but it will prevent attacks from those not here yet.

Timberrrrrrrr

Butters1979 wrote: »

Drone strikes is a reaction to Islamic terrorism, not a cause. Tell me, what country was the west bombing at September 11th? Or when the Lockerby bombing went down.

Sept 11th lol, why did they invade Iraq and Afghanistan after that instead of going after the country that funded it and where the majority of the attackers came from?

And I'm sure the families of all those innocent civilians killed by drone strikes would be very happy with your explanation :rolleyes:

LuckyRoche

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Tell us how stopping immigration now will stop attacks by people who have been here decades?

All the attackers are second generation immigrants or immigrants themselves. All of them. Of course Europe's ridiculous immigration policy throughout the previous few decades is responsible. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it were not for immigration. And people want mass immigration to continue? Think it's bad now? Import millions more from the same regions and it will only get worse and worse.

Widdershins

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

There's the thing, any further reports of it?

Well there is a video in that link. I'm not sure if there is anything dubious about it .Yes as you will see when you google it, some websites covered it but it doesn't seem to have made the Irish Times for example . Hence the accusations of a cover up.We never have covered every single incident though. And some journalists fee a responsibility to protect immigrants from potential racism by containing certain facts.

Another report here: http://www.clarionproject.org/videos/reported-muslim-migrant-gang-firebombs-bus-paris

Butters1979

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Sept 11th lol, why did they invade Iraq and Afghanistan after that instead of going after the country that funded it and where the majority of the attackers came from?

And I'm sure the families of all those innocent civilians killed by drone strikes would be very happy with your explanation :rolleyes:

Answer the question. Who were we bombing when that happened. You sympathise with these attacks don't you?

Little CuChulainn

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Germany was hit last month by a shooting spree, an axe attack, a suicide bombing and a machete assault that left 13 people dead. Three of the four assaults involved refugees. The subject of this thread was Somali. The guy that murdered 85 in Nice was North African.

Do you even know what a refugee is? German born with far right inspiration. The Munich shooter was following a man who had your kind of ideology. The knife attack had nothing to do with immigration. The suicide bomber should have been deported but wasn't. The only one you can blame on open immigration is the axe attack. Even the guy in Nice was in the country over a decade.

Widdershins wrote: »

None of them wanted to expand a caliphate .

So? Is terrosim more justified when it's a result of religious pride as opposed to nationalist pride?

Mary63 wrote: »

Well actually,the Afghan who attacked innocent tourists on a Train In Germany was a recent immigrant and he was fostered by a German family.

Some of the terrorists who attacked the concert hall and the restaurants in Paris had travelled into Europe as refugees their details were taken at border points.

Stopping uncontrolled immigration most certainly will stop terrorism now and in the future.What we are mostly seeing now in third generation terrorism being caused by radicalised losers with not much brain power and some are homosexuals attacking gay clubs.In twenty years time if we go on the way we are going we are going to see attacks by fourth generation terrorists and the existing Muslim communities as far as I known haven't acknowledged how much their self segregation has led to the current situation.

Nobody is suggesting allowing uncontrolled immigration. Vet the, interview them, give them an orientation if you want. Deport the radicals. No problem there. But don't simply refuse people because they come from an area where radicals are. It wasn't right when the Brits did it to us and it's not right now.

Widdershins

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

So? Is terrosim more justified when it's a result of religious pride as opposed to nationalist pride?

No . Re-read the page you are uncertain about .

conorhal

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Born in Munich



Lived in London since he was 5



True, lived in France 11 years



Tell us how stopping immigration now will stop attacks by people who have been here decades?

By not importing cultures that integrate so poorly that even after decades to adapt to Western norms they still view their fellow citizens as a kuffar other to be murdered for no reason? Something like that?

LuckyRoche

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Do you even know what a refugee is? German born with far right inspiration. The Munich shooter was following a man who had your kind of ideology. The knife attack had nothing to do with immigration. The suicide bomber should have been deported but wasn't. The only one you can blame on open immigration is the axe attack. Even the guy in Nice was in the country over a decade.

Three of the four attacks were carried out by 'refugees'. They all boil down to immigration. It's how the attackers got into the country. The fourth attacker was a second generation immigrant.

All of this is due to Europe's crazy immigration policies of the past few decades.

LuckyRoche

conorhal wrote: »

By not importing cultures that integrate so poorly that even after decades to adapt to Western norms they still view their fellow citizens as a kuffar other to be murdered for no reason? Something like that?

Throw open the borders to millions of relatively unskilled and uneducated people from regions were radical religious and cultural beliefs are the norm. What could go wrong?

We are just starting to see what can go wrong.

testaccount123

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting allowing uncontrolled immigration.

Uncontrolled immigration is way past being "suggested", its been happening for nearly two years. Not only is it happening, its being cheerleaded by many in Europe. Madness.

Butters1979

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Do you even know what a refugee is? German born with far right inspiration. The Munich shooter was following a man who had your kind of ideology. The knife attack had nothing to do with immigration. The suicide bomber should have been deported but wasn't. The only one you can blame on open immigration is the axe attack. Even the guy in Nice was in the country over a decade.



So? Is terrosim more justified when it's a result of religious pride as opposed to nationalist pride?



Nobody is suggesting allowing uncontrolled immigration. Vet the, interview them, give them an orientation if you want. Deport the radicals. No problem there. But don't simply refuse people because they come from an area where radicals are. It wasn't right when the Brits did it to us and it's not right now.

Who says it isn't right? You? I say it is right. Over 1 million migrants and year and your solution is to interview them? What question would we ask? What if they lied and fooled the interviewer.

You seem to think anyone has a right to come to a country unless they can be proven to be radicalised. That's your point of view. I say we have a right to deny entry to our countries without proof, for the safety and stability of Europe. We're not a charity and we're not shelter.