NBA 2016-17 Preseason News.

That_Guy

Tim Duncan retires.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/7/11/9165781/tim-duncan-retires-san-antonio-spurs

One of the greatest careers in basketball history has come to an end. Tim Duncan, a five-time champion, two-time MVP, three-time Finals MVP and 15-time All-Star announced he's retiring on Monday

Paully D

That_Guy wrote: »

Tim Duncan retires.

A pleasure to watch him over the years.

I think he'd make an awesome coach if he goes in that direction.

LuckyLloyd

Draymond arrested for assualt:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/report-draymond-green-arrested-for-assault-in-east-lansing-162401461.html

ButtersSuki

Paully D wrote: »

A pleasure to watch him over the years.

I think he'd make an awesome coach if he goes in that direction.

Can't imagine him doing so. He doesn't exactly crave attention or the limelight, think he'll be happy without the fuss tbh.

True legend of the game. One of my favourite players to watch. Sad to see him gone.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Draymond arrested for assualt:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/report-draymond-green-arrested-for-assault-in-east-lansing-162401461.html

Could be nothing, could be major. You never know with Draymond......

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Harden practically guarantees a team playoffs in the West. In the current NBA landscape where only two teams have a realistic shot at titling anyway, that's worth a lot imo.

Aw come on. He's a black hole. All he guarantees is a first round exit. They scraped into the Play Offs this year.


He's supremely talented offensively, but he's not a team player in the truest sense of the word.

I was a big fan of his game when he was in OKC, but he's morphed into something horrible through having too much power and a coach and teammates who were basically afraid to stop him becoming what he's become. With a decent (i.e. strong) coach I still think he could be a LOT better, but if he doesn't get that he'll be come Melo II.

And D'Antoni isn't that coach btw.....

LuckyLloyd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd3C5ok9ZW0

Blocks are my favourite part of the game. Some unreal athleticism on show in Vegas.

Carcharodon

ButtersSuki wrote: »

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Draymond arrested for assualt:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/report-draymond-green-arrested-for-assault-in-east-lansing-162401461.html

Could be nothing, could be major. You never know with Draymond......

Sounds like nothing major but will only add fuel to the fire in regards to his reputation.
He is actually supposed to be extremely sincere and nice.
Warriors will need to talk to him, he has a target on his back and getting into silly altercations is not going to fly, even if not your fault, guy he slapped was also a spartan and still in college I think but from Ohio and a lebron fan...so just guessing, we might know what he said to piss him off, who knows though.
Any time he finds himself in a situation like this he has to ask himself, is this person also on a 85 million dollar contract, if not walk away, you have more to lose

Carcharodon

Also, what the hell was Drayminds posse doing, everyone knows NBA players have a designated person to do the slapping for you!

LuckyLloyd

"If you shoot me you're famous; if I shoot you I'm brainless"

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Aw come on. He's a black hole. All he guarantees is a first round exit. They scraped into the Play Offs this year.


He's supremely talented offensively, but he's not a team player in the truest sense of the word.

I was a big fan of his game when he was in OKC, but he's morphed into something horrible through having too much power and a coach and teammates who were basically afraid to stop him becoming what he's become. With a decent (i.e. strong) coach I still think he could be a LOT better, but if he doesn't get that he'll be come Melo II.

And D'Antoni isn't that coach btw.....

I'm not sure what Melo has done wrong tbh. He produces every year in New York and clearly plays hard. When they put some pieces around him they were a playoff team, but Stoudemire's contract became a black hole and they've made some terrible player decisions generally. I'd expect Melo to lead them to the playoffs this year with a slightly improved talent level around him, assuming Hornaek plays the role of facilitator rather than dictator.

People tend to treat high usage offensive stars very negatively. No one player can win a championship and it's ultimately the responsibility of an organisation to manage a roster correctly and install a coach that makes it work. At Houston the past three years Dwight Howard has been earning a max contract but producing increasingly league average play. Harden keeps producing at a top 10 in the league level and the objective needs to be to put complimentary pieces around that.

But ultimately the dude is balling out of his mind all season. 29 points and 8 dishes each night. It ain't his fault.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not sure what Melo has done wrong tbh. He produces every year in New York and clearly plays hard. When they put some pieces around him they were a playoff team, but Stoudemire's contract became a black hole and they've made some terrible player decisions generally. I'd expect Melo to lead them to the playoffs this year with a slightly improved talent level around him, assuming Hornaek plays the role of facilitator rather than dictator.

People tend to treat high usage offensive stars very negatively. No one player can win a championship and it's ultimately the responsibility of an organisation to manage a roster correctly and install a coach that makes it work. At Houston the past three years Dwight Howard has been earning a max contract but producing increasingly league average play. Howard keeps producing at a top 10 in the league level and the objective needs to be to put complimentary pieces around that.

But ultimately the dude is balling out of his mind all season. 29 points and 8 dishes each night. It ain't his fault.

First comment in bold: I give up. Can you honestly not see how Melo is the biggest problem with that offence in NY? Just google it. There's dozens of articles on it, and him.

Second comment in bold: Howard is now a Top 10 producing player in the league in your opinion?

Third comment in bold: who are you referring to here? Howard, Harden or Melo? NONE OF THEM AVERAGED THOSE STATS LAST YEAR.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

First comment in bold: I give up. Can you honestly not see how Melo is the biggest problem with that offence in NY? Just google it. There's dozens of articles on it, and him.

Second comment in bold: Howard is now a Top 10 producing player in the league in your opinion?

Third comment in bold: who are you referring to here? Howard, Harden or Melo? NONE OF THEM AVERAGED THOSE STATS LAST YEAR.

Harden is a top 10 player in the league
Harden averaged 29 pts and 7.5 assists per game during 2015 / 16

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Harden is a top 10 player in the league
Harden averaged 29 pts and 7.5 assists per game during 2015 / 16

You actually didn't mention Harden in your post.I never said he wasn't a Top 10 - and this is important - "individual" Player btw, but he's also deeply flawed. He plays no defence at all, and has morphed into a 1 v 5 iso player.....and that is not a winning formula. He must be incredibly frustrating to play with. You said it isn't his fault. It actually kind of is for the reason I've stated. They'll not win anything with him playing like that.

I've consistently said OKC should never have let him go and that they should have paid the luxury tax to keep him long term. They didn't even have to let him go the season they did, they traded him to avoid a situation where he became a FA.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Harden is a top 10 player in the league
Harden averaged 29 pts and 7.5 assists per game during 2015 / 16

Not to be pedantic but you originally said 8 APG.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

First comment in bold: I give up. Can you honestly not see how Melo is the biggest problem with that offence in NY? Just google it. There's dozens of articles on it, and him.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

You actually didn't mention Harden in your post.I never said he wasn't a Top 10 - and this is important - "individual" Player btw, but he's also deeply flawed. He plays no defence at all, and has morphed into a 1 v 5 iso player.....and that is not a winning formula. He must be incredibly frustrating to play with. You said it isn't his fault. It actually kind of is for the reason I've stated. They'll not win anything with him playing like that.

I've consistently said OKC should never have let him go and that they should have paid the luxury tax to keep him long term. They didn't even have to let him go the season they did, they traded him to avoid a situation where he became a FA.

Melo has averaged 22.42 PER on an average 32.34 usage rate in New York
Harden has averaged 24.63 PER on an average 30.15 usage rate in Houston

To put this into context, Curry's usage the last two years is 30.75 (29.75 PER) and LeBron's 31.85 (26.7 PER). So they're carrying the bulk of offensive load while still maintaining reasonable efficiency. Curry and LeBron also carry their teams to a similar extent but have much much better pieces around them and are, you know, Stephen Curry and LeBron James.

The real problems are the likes of Kobe's 14.9 PER on 32.2 usage (-0.2 VORP) from last year or Derrick Rose's 13.5 PER on 27.3 usage (-0.7 VORP). They're the disastrous ones - when your high volume number one offensive option has below league average efficiency and is less valuable than a random replacement player.

My point is that it isn't a case of me being unaware of articles and opinions of how Harden / Melo are 'black holes' or whatever. I just think it's bull**** analysis that is very appealing because it has a 'through the looking glass' feel to it - i.e. it sounds very smart to be the guy saying 'oh yeah I know he scores a lot but have you seen how he slows down his offense / have you seen how he makes everyone around him worse?' Houston and the Knicks lost a cumulative total of 91 regular season games last year so of course it's going to be easy to find lots of bad offensive sets and footage of the whole thing not working. And when Melo and Harden are the primary attacker on so many possessions it will be easy to draw a conclusion of how they're the problem.

The right question to ask however is whether the fortunes of the Knicks or Houston would have been significantly improved last year if either player had a reduced usage? The Knicks should route much more through Rose and an improved Porzingis this year and Courtney Lee could thrive as a shooting option if they gel well. But last season they had a very poor guard rotation and Porzingis suffered rookie struggles as the year went on. In that context putting less through Melo hardly seems like a recipe for success. Similarly, I'd have to ask the question about who was supposed to be getting the ball in Houston?

You take Harden out of Houston or Melo out of New York and you're looking at a Lakers / Philadelphia type mess in 2015 / 16 imo. As such, the idea that they are the key problem or black hole is nonsense imo. The problem is poor drafting and roster management around them (though I do believe that the Knicks have gotten better this offseason). And as much as the full tank and rebuild is an appealing idea and it sounds good to say 'you should either be trying to win a Championship or trying to start again'; I would much rather see my club winning more than they lose and getting into round one of the playoffs. Lakers fans and Philadelphia fans will be crossing the fingers that their young talent comes good, but having been to a couple of 76'ers games the past couple of years the reality is that the arena is empty and the place stinks of defeat.

Clinging to the coattails of a star and going to the first round of the playoffs is not the terrible thing it is made out to be imo. There are worse fates.

Carcharodon

Interesting discussion/ argument you guys are having, I would nearly of always of agreed with butters on this but luckylyod has made some very valid points.
I much prefer Melo than Harden, I just have a preconceived image of Harden as being a premadonna plus his defense is atrocious. Melo has in my view always played hard and was fantastic for Denver, he has kind of been forgotten about.
I agree with luckylyod that these players have never gotten the right pieces n place for them.

Paully D

Carcharodon wrote: »

I agree with luckylyod that these players have never gotten the right pieces n place for them.

Melo could have had it and joined Chicago in 2014 though. Unfortunately he obviously chose to stay in New York, but he did have the perfect chance to go to a team who had the pieces in place.

Carcharodon

Paully D wrote: »

Carcharodon wrote: »

I agree with luckylyod that these players have never gotten the right pieces n place for them.

Melo could have had it and joined Chicago in 2014 though. Unfortunately he obviously chose to stay in New York, but he did have the perfect chance to go to a team who had the pieces in place.

He did but I think in my unqualified opinion he wanted to finish what he started. You can never blame a guy for wanting to play for his home town and that huge market. He has been great for the Knicks in my opinion, it's just a pity the organization is run by a bunch of idiots

LuckyLloyd

lol Draymond

According to the police report, obtained by TMZ Sports, at least two officers witnessed Green slapping Edmondson across the face outside of Conrad's bar in East Lansing, Michigan in the early hours of July 10th.

Cops say they spoke with Edmondson who says the slap was the culmination of a 2-day feud that began at another bar the night before.

Edmondson told police he was hanging out with his girlfriend when Green bumped into him. Edmondson says he told Green, "Hey bro, you can at least say 'Excuse me.'"
Green allegedly responded by saying, "Do you know who I am?" ... and added, "I pay for n**gas like you scholarships."

Edmondson says 2 of Green's associates then began to choke him out right in the bar. He later noticed that Green's associates choked his girlfriend as well.

Edmondson says he and his GF left the bar without contacting police -- and returned to the bar scene the next day to celebrate his birthday.

That's when he ran into Green again -- and was confronted by the NBA star. Edmondson says he told Green that "last night wasn't cool" and Green started to poke him in the shoulder.
Edmondson says he told Green to take his hands off him -- and that's when "boom I'm punched in my jaw."

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Melo has averaged 22.42 PER on an average 32.34 usage rate in New York
Harden has averaged 24.63 PER on an average 30.15 usage rate in Houston

To put this into context, Curry's usage the last two years is 30.75 (29.75 PER) and LeBron's 31.85 (26.7 PER). So they're carrying the bulk of offensive load while still maintaining reasonable efficiency. Curry and LeBron also carry their teams to a similar extent but have much much better pieces around them and are, you know, Stephen Curry and LeBron James.

The real problems are the likes of Kobe's 14.9 PER on 32.2 usage (-0.2 VORP) from last year or Derrick Rose's 13.5 PER on 27.3 usage (-0.7 VORP). They're the disastrous ones - when your high volume number one offensive option has below league average efficiency and is less valuable than a random replacement player.

My point is that it isn't a case of me being unaware of articles and opinions of how Harden / Melo are 'black holes' or whatever. I just think it's bull**** analysis that is very appealing because it has a 'through the looking glass' feel to it - i.e. it sounds very smart to be the guy saying 'oh yeah I know he scores a lot but have you seen how he slows down his offense / have you seen how he makes everyone around him worse?' Houston and the Knicks lost a cumulative total of 91 regular season games last year so of course it's going to be easy to find lots of bad offensive sets and footage of the whole thing not working. And when Melo and Harden are the primary attacker on so many possessions it will be easy to draw a conclusion of how they're the problem.

The right question to ask however is whether the fortunes of the Knicks or Houston would have been significantly improved last year if either player had a reduced usage? The Knicks should route much more through Rose and an improved Porzingis this year and Courtney Lee could thrive as a shooting option if they gel well. But last season they had a very poor guard rotation and Porzingis suffered rookie struggles as the year went on. In that context putting less through Melo hardly seems like a recipe for success. Similarly, I'd have to ask the question about who was supposed to be getting the ball in Houston?

You take Harden out of Houston or Melo out of New York and you're looking at a Lakers / Philadelphia type mess in 2015 / 16 imo. As such, the idea that they are the key problem or black hole is nonsense imo. The problem is poor drafting and roster management around them (though I do believe that the Knicks have gotten better this offseason). And as much as the full tank and rebuild is an appealing idea and it sounds good to say 'you should either be trying to win a Championship or trying to start again'; I would much rather see my club winning more than they lose and getting into round one of the playoffs. Lakers fans and Philadelphia fans will be crossing the fingers that their young talent comes good, but having been to a couple of 76'ers games the past couple of years the reality is that the arena is empty and the place stinks of defeat.

Clinging to the coattails of a star and going to the first round of the playoffs is not the terrible thing it is made out to be imo. There are worse fates.

I'm not avoiding this. I will respond in the next few days, just up the walls and shattered at the mo.

I see what you're saying and there is some validity to it, but overall I disagree that they're not fundamentally part of the problem.

I think Melo is the bigger gunner/black hole of the two btw, but I feel Harden is guiltier/the bigger sinner as his baseline offensive skillset is greater than Melo's. But I'll come back to all of this.

One thing I'd ask you to think about in the interim however is ask yourself have you ever played with a guy like that? And if you haven't, ask yourself what it's like as a team mate to play with someone like that. I have, and it's completely demoralising.

Anyway, night.

brady23

I haven't posted in a while but I would have very similar views as LL. I think Harden is easily a Top 10 player, I think his defence is laughable at times but I have no doubt he's good enough to be the best player on a championship team.
His defence isn't as bad as people would think from a metrics perspective.

Here is total Defensive win shares(DWS) over the past 2 years has been 4.2 and 2.6 not stellar but acceptable given his Offensive Win share is 12.2 and 10.7

Comparing him to a few standard comparisons over last 2 years

Klay (DWS) 3.1 and 2.6

Kawhi (DWS) 4.4 and 5.5

DeRozan (DWS) 2.4 and 1.4

George (DWS) 4.4

He compares well to other guys who are deemed far better defensive players than him, he's not going to win individual accolades for defense but he's not hurting his team or is some sort of defensive black hole by any means.

On another point I disagree with the idea of settling for mediocrity, getting to the playoffs and losing the first round most often.
Obviously there are extreme cases such as Twolves etc but given Melo and Harden were the players being discussed, teams such as the Rockets and Knicks shouldn't settle for that.

NufcNavan

I must admit I have a soft spot for Melo. When his game is on there's very few players in the league I'd rather watch.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

One thing I'd ask you to think about in the interim however is ask yourself have you ever played with a guy like that? And if you haven't, ask yourself what it's like as a team mate to play with someone like that. I have, and it's completely demoralising.

You play to win the game. I've played on various teams in various sports where we had a star and you'd see lads getting rubbed up the wrong way because they weren't getting enough of the limelight. I could never understand that attitude personally. If you have a guy who has 30% of the points necessary to win most nights locked up when you step on the floor play your ****ing role. And that goes for any sport. If you have a star center forward in soccer or a star half forward you need to keep feeding them the ball and focus on the basics around them.

Because I've been on various teams bereft of a star and whilst eveyone might have liked the equality of involvement eventually losing more than you win is no fun.

LuckyLloyd

brady23 wrote: »

On another point I disagree with the idea of settling for mediocrity, getting to the playoffs and losing the first round most often.
Obviously there are extreme cases such as Twolves etc but given Melo and Harden were the players being discussed, teams such as the Rockets and Knicks shouldn't settle for that.

Well, to clarify, I'm not suggesting settling for mediocrity or that the Rockets / Knicks should be merely happy with first round exits. Though I could have articulated myself better for sure.

I'm a Knicks fan. So I'll discuss what they've done over the last half decade and a bit. After nine losing seasons in a row they made a move halfway through 2010 - 11 to cash in Lee, Galinari and cap space to get Melo and Stoudemire and try and win. Three straight trips to the playoffs followed, culminating in their first playoff win of the Millennium in 2013. That was a poor return really though for two max contracts, and in 2014 it was clear that they had too much money invested in the likes of Stoudemire and Bargani, who couldn't stay on the floor and were sucking up far too much of the cap between them. So the last three years have been about clearing those contracts off and building up some space again and getting a good young piece to build around.

Jackson has drafted his guy and this summer has made his moves, and if Rose doesn't recover a good level of play they'll have room again next year to try and max a guy around Melo and Porzingis. I like the moves they are making now, just as I liked what they were trying to do in January 2011. They are trying to win, and Rose may not work just as Stoudemire didn't but they have an exit from that second max level contract after a year this time round and can try something else next year.

My ultimate position is that I agree with holding Melo and trying to win around him. The challenge that the Knicks are facing down is to get the right mix around him so that they can win. Version 1.0 wasn't a million miles away and if Stoudemire's body had held up better who knows? Version 2.0 carries similar health risks and considering Melo's age the next evolution may very well be Porzingis's team rather than Melos.

That's the challenge for Houston too. To put the right pieces around Harden. Look at the history of the league. The Detroit Pistons team from the first part of the previous decade stand out as a major exception in being a title winning team without a star. You need that number one offensive option who can carry load and volume and keep the scoreboard ticking over.

I think we probably agree more than you realise. What I'm arguing against is the mindset of 'this isn't working, let's trade our high usage offensive star for picks / pieces and go full tank and rebuild'. I just don't think that has been proven to work anywhere near often enough. If the Knicks can win this year and get in the playoffs then maybe they can throw a max contract at Westbrook in Rose's stead if the latter suffers another inefficient season. I certainly think they'll be making a much stronger overall proposition than the Lakers at that point, that's for sure.

brady23

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well, to clarify, I'm not suggesting settling for mediocrity or that the Rockets / Knicks should be merely happy with first round exits. Though I could have articulated myself better for sure.

I'm a Knicks fan. So I'll discuss what they've done over the last half decade and a bit. After nine losing seasons in a row they made a move halfway through 2010 - 11 to cash in Lee, Galinari and cap space to get Melo and Stoudemire and try and win. Three straight trips to the playoffs followed, culminating in their first playoff win of the Millennium in 2013. That was a poor return really though for two max contracts, and in 2014 it was clear that they had too much money invested in the likes of Stoudemire and Bargani, who couldn't stay on the floor and were sucking up far too much of the cap between them. So the last three years have been about clearing those contracts off and building up some space again and getting a good young piece to build around.

Jackson has drafted his guy and this summer has made his moves, and if Rose doesn't recover a good level of play they'll have room again next year to try and max a guy around Melo and Porzingis. I like the moves they are making now, just as I liked what they were trying to do in January 2011. They are trying to win, and Rose may not work just as Stoudemire didn't but they have an exit from that second max level contract after a year this time round and can try something else next year.

My ultimate position is that I agree with holding Melo and trying to win around him. The challenge that the Knicks are facing down is to get the right mix around him so that they can win. Version 1.0 wasn't a million miles away and if Stoudemire's body had held up better who knows? Version 2.0 carries similar health risks and considering Melo's age the next evolution may very well be Porzingis's team rather than Melos.

That's the challenge for Houston too. To put the right pieces around Harden. Look at the history of the league. The Detroit Pistons team from the first part of the previous decade stand out as a major exception in being a title winning team without a star. You need that number one offensive option who can carry load and volume and keep the scoreboard ticking over.

I think we probably agree more than you realise. What I'm arguing against is the mindset of 'this isn't working, let's trade our high usage offensive star for picks / pieces and go full tank and rebuild'. I just don't think that has been proven to work anywhere near often enough. If the Knicks can win this year and get in the playoffs then maybe they can throw a max contract at Westbrook in Rose's stead if the latter suffers another inefficient season. I certainly think they'll be making a much stronger overall proposition than the Lakers at that point, that's for sure.

Like I said earlier, I have very similar views as you. I agree with your idea that trading away a star for lots of good pieces hasn't yielded too many winning situations but I also can't think of too many situations where the teams that have got the superstars have thrived.

Mega deals in recent times, D12 to LA, Garnett, Pierce etc to Brooklyn, Melo/Amare to NYK.

I think as front offices, heads of operations and coaches have become more savvy in recent times that the method of rebuilding is a longer process than initially thought and in the right setting can be brilliant.

Denver made a great run after the Melo trade, high tempo bball with a solid team. They still have flexibility but will struggle to do anything but build through the draft.
I think smaller market teams can't trade those stars because even with great role guys, they struggle to attract stars, it's changing a bit but it'll always be there.

I think it will work for example in Boston, they have taken loads of time, super front office, great head coach and enough allure as a franchise to attract a star.
They got Horford and gave up nothing, they have enough pieces now to make a trade for a star to go along with Horford or maybe they'll keep going and wait, see if they can attract Westbrook next summer.

I think either way neither side of the mega Melo type deals have proven to be super successful in recent years but I think the teams who appear to have gained the most from them, are definitely those who took the pieces and not the star

NufcNavan

"With these teams right now, they're saying us and Golden State are the superteams, and they're trying not to build that many superteams, and Adam Silver came out with the statement and this and that," Rose said.

No Derrick, no one is putting New York in that category..

Kobe248

NufcNavan wrote: »

"With these teams right now, they're saying us and Golden State are the superteams, and they're trying not to build that many superteams, and Adam Silver came out with the statement and this and that," Rose said.

No Derrick, no one is putting New York in that category..

I laughed so hard when he said it :pac:

ButtersSuki

Rose must be smokin' weed again.....

NufcNavan

Demarcus Cousins is one of the most talented guys in the NBA and no one even accepts it because the Kings are a flaming dumpster fire and somehow that is DMC's fault.

It's funny how his attitude doesn't seem to cause any issues on Team USA, in fact you had Albert praising him as one of the future leaders of the USA program. Some NBA franchises like the Kings would rather pin their issues on "immature players" instead of looking in the mirror that they've been poorly run for going on a decade.