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South Africa v Ireland, Second Test. Match Thread

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    #722
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    It must be very disappointing if not completely embarrassing for the 3 backs on the bench, not to be given the chance to help the team.
    The try to take the lead came in 75th minute, conversion on 76th minute, and then the 3 sub backs came on.
    For me it's disappointing, because I believe we have great potential in our subs, but clearly the coach, who is the closest to the players, doesn't believe in them at all.


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    #723
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx5jYzgZEzk


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    #724
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Like he says. In a game so close, it's not an easy decision to take off players who are core to keeping your structure in place. Players on the field for the first 60+ will have a feel for the game and someone coming off the bench will have to find their way into the game. That in itself can be costly.


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    #725
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    It must be very disappointing if not completely embarrassing for the 3 backs on the bench, not to be given the chance to help the team.
    The try to take the lead came in 75th minute, conversion on 76th minute, and then the 3 sub backs came on.
    For me it's disappointing, because I believe we have great potential in our subs, but clearly the coach, who is the closest to the players, doesn't believe in them at all.

    Joe never likes changing his half-backs. Go back to the Argentina game, I think Reddan got two minutes and Jackson got zero. Likewise in the Six Nations, Marmion and Madigan got negligible game time. Your half backs are just so central to everything that even bringing in fresh legs is bound to cause disruption elsewhere so I can see where he's coming from. I don't think anyone realised how wrecked Murray was until he wilted under de Allende and by then it was too late.

    As for TOH, well, no, he wouldn't have wanted to take any of his starting 11 - 15 off to be replaced by a guy with zero caps and not much time in camp. (Yes, yes, I know that he can't get experience if he's never tried, I know.)


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    #726
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,540 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Vermeulen injured? http://www.the42.ie/south-africa-injury-vermeulen-2834226-Jun2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

    Live by the sword, etc.


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    #727
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    Just for the record,
    Tries came 55, 63, 69, 75, and last penalty came at 80.
    3 out of 4 tries were converted.
    If we had held out just one of the converted tries we would have won.
    If the 3 sub backs had been on at 55-60 minutes we could have seen a difference.
    The forward subs did come on roughly in good time.
    Perhaps Best and McGrth could have gone off a bit before their eventual exit at 65 mins.
    Also perhaps Henderson could have gone off for Reidy before the 70th minute.
    With margins so thin, and a few costly errors between Jackson and the backs (crossing when on their 22, and knock on due to miscommunication) perhaps with fresh legs those mistakes could have been avoided and we could have kept possession better towards the end of the match.

    I think it is very difficult to call. On the one hand, a few of the players looked in bits (esp Best and Trimble). On the other hand, the disruption caused by the mass substitutions really destroyed our concentration and focus - we looked like a disorganised rabble by the end.
    While many are blaming the altitude, any of the post match interviews I have read have completely dismissed this as an issue - and I am inclined to think that it was not the main problem.
    On balance, I think we may have been better keeping the same team on until the end (except for Best and Trimble) - the substitutions destroyed our rhythm.
    I feel sorry for Joe - these decisions are very difficult.


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    #728
    Bigbok
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 291 ✭✭Bigbok


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Vermeulen injured? http://www.the42.ie/south-africa-injury-vermeulen-2834226-Jun2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

    Live by the sword, etc.

    Live by the sword???bit like dirty stander then.anyway duene shouldn't be in the squad,bench at best.louw at 8,warren at 6 and Jaco at 7


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    #729
    cormpat
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭cormpat


    Bigbok wrote: »
    Live by the sword???bit like dirty stander then.anyway duene shouldn't be in the squad,bench at best.louw at 8,warren at 6 and Jaco at 7

    Come on, its laughable that you South Africans are trying to play the innocent lambs when it comes to dirty play!

    What about Burger's eye gouge on Luke Fitz? Or nearly any game Bakkies Botha played in?


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    #730
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,540 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Bigbok wrote: »
    Live by the sword???bit like dirty stander then.anyway duene shouldn't be in the squad,bench at best.louw at 8,warren at 6 and Jaco at 7

    I didn't say Vermeulen's elbow-leading was particularly dirty (it is arguable), but it's downright stupid. Not surprised at all that he picked up an elbow injury.


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    #731
    Bigbok
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 291 ✭✭Bigbok


    cormpat wrote: »
    Come on, its laughable that you South Africans are trying to play the innocent lambs when it comes to dirty play!

    What about Burger's eye gouge on Luke Fitz? Or nearly any game Bakkies Botha played in?

    So if u want to bring up stuff from 7yrs ago what about POC kicking a player in the head,BOD stamping on a players chest?but no I guess the Irish are the cleanest players around.


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    #732
    FACECUTTR
    Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭FACECUTTR


    Bigbok wrote: »
    Live by the sword???bit like dirty stander then.anyway duene shouldn't be in the squad,bench at best.louw at 8,warren at 6 and Jaco at 7

    Whitely is a fantastic player.


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    #733
    Bigbok
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 291 ✭✭Bigbok


    FACECUTTR wrote: »
    Whitely is a fantastic player.

    Been knocking on the door for ages now but unfortunately not getting rewarded for his hard work,same with Jaco and Marx too


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    #734
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Bigbok wrote: »
    Live by the sword???bit like dirty stander then.anyway duene shouldn't be in the squad,bench at best.louw at 8,warren at 6 and Jaco at 7
    cormpat wrote: »
    Come on, its laughable that you South Africans are trying to play the innocent lambs when it comes to dirty play!

    What about Burger's eye gouge on Luke Fitz? Or nearly any game Bakkies Botha played in?
    Bigbok wrote: »
    So if u want to bring up stuff from 7yrs ago what about POC kicking a player in the head,BOD stamping on a players chest?but no I guess the Irish are the cleanest players around.

    People in glasshouses comes to mind. No more of this rubbish please.


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    #735
    cormpat
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭cormpat


    Bigbok wrote: »
    So if u want to bring up stuff from 7yrs ago what about POC kicking a player in the head,BOD stamping on a players chest?but no I guess the Irish are the cleanest players around.

    Look, if you want to get into a situation where I list all South African dirty play I'd be writing a book longer than Lord of the Rings. Anyway, I thought all you Boks loved a bit of biff?


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    #736
    Bigbok
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 291 ✭✭Bigbok


    cormpat wrote: »
    Look, if you want to get into a situation where I list all South African dirty play I'd be writing a book longer than Lord of the Rings. Anyway, I thought all you Boks loved a bit of biff?

    https://youtu.be/hekw9Q0b_eI


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    #737
    Adbrowne
    Site Banned Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Adbrowne


    before the thread gets locked, inevitably, what did people think of the ref on saturday, I thought he was very good.


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    #738
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Adbrowne wrote: »
    before the thread gets locked, inevitably, what did people think of the ref on saturday, I thought he was very good.

    I don't even remember who it was.

    Therefore, he had a cracking match.


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    #739
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Adbrowne wrote: »
    before the thread gets locked, inevitably, what did people think of the ref on saturday, I thought he was very good.

    Me too seemed pretty balanced

    Apart from him constantly calling the tmo "mate"


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    #740
    Adbrowne
    Site Banned Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Adbrowne


    former total wrote: »
    I don't even remember who it was.

    Therefore, he had a cracking match.

    Angus Gardner. He did one of our games in the 6n


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    #741
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Angus Gardner had a great game. He's had a few good games recently tbh and seems to know a bit about the scrum (which I take as a bonus with rugby refs). Only 31 too, so plenty left in the tank for him.


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    #742
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,195 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I was very impressed with Gardner and his confident, no bull**** approach. He even admitted a minor error at one stage.

    I thought the south African commentators wee very good, knowledgeable and balanced as well, FWIW. I'd never heard of 'changing lanes' in a maul before.


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    #743
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    It must be very disappointing if not completely embarrassing for the 3 backs on the bench, not to be given the chance to help the team.

    They are all clearly third rate. No right to be given a chance to help the team. They are back up. To be used if those ahead of them are injured.


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    #744
    Billysays no
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    Will be interesting to see how the team changes for the final test. Will Healy or Reddan feature in the match day 23? Will Marmion and Madigan form the initial partnership to allow impact substitutions from Murray and Jackson. Who will form the centre partnership. If you put olding and marshall (which would be a reasonably fresh centre partnership) so do you put toh at fullback and have payne on the bench. Does toner need a break and should he be on the bench.

    Looking back at the world cup it struck me that we had the weaker opposition to start and we simply played our best team from the start. So when it came to the crunch games the team was tired. The French game was really attritional which left us really stuffed when we got to the tougher games.

    So we didn't learn from that. Hopefully we have learnt this time.


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    #745
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I had never heard of Ruan Combrinck. I have now.

    I would wonder at how effective he will be starting? SA might have their best team on the field come sat, but how much impact will be left for their bench i that's the case?


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    #746
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,602 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I had never heard of Ruan Combrinck. I have now.

    I'm in a South African fans FB page and they've been calling for him from the start. The lads down the pub were very impressed when I was able to identify Combrinck coming on as a potential game changer!


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    #747
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Billysays no wrote: »
    Looking back at the world cup it struck me that we had the weaker opposition to start and we simply played our best team from the start.

    We played the seconds in the second match vs Romania, so the above isn't correct.


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    #748
    Billysays no
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    We played the seconds in the second match vs Romania, so the above isn't correct.

    I really, really said that badly. what I was trying to say is that is we were disadvantaged. We had the easy stuff first. Then we were hitting hard attritional games. And we lost players with no time to recover for the important stages. So thomond you are spot on.


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    #749
    Adbrowne
    Site Banned Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Adbrowne


    Billysays no wrote: »
    I really, really said that badly. what I was trying to say is that is we were disadvantaged. We had the easy stuff first. Then we were hitting hard attritional games. And we lost players with no time to recover for the important stages. So thomond you are spot on.

    POC, POM suffered long term injuries. The run of the games had no impact. Sexton might have been out of the argentina game even if he had two weeks recovery time


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    #750
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,483 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Teferi wrote: »
    Angus Gardner had a great game. He's had a few good games recently tbh and seems to know a bit about the scrum (which I take as a bonus with rugby refs). Only 31 too, so plenty left in the tank for him.

    He's a great ref. I expect him to motor up the ranks. Most promising newbie in a while.


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    #751
    Billysays no
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    Adbrowne wrote: »
    POC, POM suffered long term injuries. The run of the games had no impact. Sexton might have been out of the argentina game even if he had two weeks recovery time

    every game hurts for every player. we just had an unfortunate sequence of games. no more than the u20s, we got a break against Georgia before argentina. this allowed the possibility of making 13 changes to freshen the team.

    what we see on the sa tour is an unwillingness to change a team which leaves us a total puzzle for last test. paddy is shagged, conor is shagged, devin is shagged. is marmion so rubbish. he just led Connacht to a pro12 title. I don't rate Madigan but Jackson needs a rest at some stage.

    what is the point of 'impact' subs if you believe they have no impact. then they are simply useless .

    and I have a real problem with toh, marmion, Madigan, ryan, Gilroy, dillane, bealham, strauss as its always the last minutes. so you simply have no clue if they are useless or not. and pro12 form seems utterly irrelevant.

    I am happy for furlong. that's a start. not a surprise. just a start


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