South Africa v Ireland, Second Test. Match Thread

Ardillaun

matthew8 wrote: »

Altitude was a factor in the team getting tired but a total lack of possession in the second half was a big factor too. You can't constantly defend for 40 minutes.

England did something like that today. They are a fair bit ahead of us in that regard at the moment.

Billysays no

jm08 wrote: »

Marmion is probably a bit unlucky that Sexton didn't travel. Hard to see Schmidt letting a Jackson & Marmion halfback partnership lose on the Boks, though in fairness to Jackson he has been very good.

Jackson can be excellent (oh, sexton is injured and Jackson is in fact excellent). marmion can be excellent. joe, cut him a break

jm08

Billysays no wrote: »

Jackson can be excellent (oh, sexton is injured and Jackson is in fact excellent). marmion can be excellent. joe, cut him a break

How good is Marmion's defence?

Dave_The_Sheep

Ive watched the game twice today, because I love a bit of masochism.

Positives.
We nailed SA to the ****ing board today for 40 minutes.
Furlong and McGrath ruled the scrum. We are in good hands for the next while with those lads.
Maul defense and attack was great.
When we're in the mood, we'll score. I didn't agree with the lineout choice, but it paid off. Well pressured.

Negatives:
Our bench ... weak. We suffered massively in the last 20 minutes. Call it height/atmospheric conditions, who cares? Our bench wasn't good enough.
Altitude ... ? Next week we'll see.
Question of subs. Subs were very late. Joe still has loads of protection.
We were under pressure and nobody seemed to stand up and stem the tide of game momentum. Needs someone.

All in all, I'm ok and more so going into the 3rd test. These bastards are here to be taken. Let's ****ing do it.

Billysays no

jm08 wrote: »

How good is Marmion's defence?

I could say I don't understand that question as marmion lives attack. but as a defensive scrum half marmion is under everything. nobody gets past him. I am left scratching my head.

Billysays no

I really thought we were heralding a new era. I was errant

vetinari

Billysays no wrote: »

that's unfair. joe played a good team. he just didn't refresh. it was the same in the first test. when will he learn to use a match day 23

A 16 point lead at halftime, a 16 point lead at 60 minutes.
Ireland were out on their feet in the last 20 minutes. That's down to the manager. He needs to give more game time to more players to build a squad that can contest the full 80 minutes. There's an element of flattering to deceive. We won last week with a huge performance in the face of adversity. This week we had the Boks completely on the rack but couldn't last the pace.

If we're ever going to get to the next level and genuinely compete with the top nations, we can't be losing games like today. It's no better than Wales giving New Zealand a game for 40 minutes and then getting blown out of it.

CatFromHue

the full game is up on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlpfTNCNuLs

1.41.45 on the youtube clock is the play that Henshaw gets injured and it doesn't look good. I don't think we'll be seeing him next week anyway, it's nearly 4 mins later before they get him off the pitch and he's just prone on the ground with an ice pack on his knee the whole time.

CatFromHue

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Negatives:
Our bench ... weak. We suffered massively in the last 20 minutes. Call it height/atmospheric conditions, who cares? Our bench wasn't good enough.

We prob knew that before the game but had to see how they'd get on.

the guys who came on in the pack were Strauss, Kilcoyne, Bealham, Ryan, and Reidy.

Take away Ryan and Strauss and you have a combined 4 starts between Kilcoyne, Bealham, and Reidy and all 4 come from Kilcoyne

vetinari

Exactly, some players can be like an Itoje and be world beaters from the get go.
Most players will however be of a lower standard but will improve with more game time.
Test matches are at an higher intensity.
Bizarrely the Irish response to that at times is to say its thus to risky to voluntarily introduce too many new players.
But there's no substitute for it. We simply can't build a stronger squad without exposing more players to test rugby.

CatFromHue

vetinari wrote: »

A 16 point lead at halftime, a 16 point lead at 60 minutes.
Ireland were out on their feet in the last 20 minutes. That's down to the manager. He needs to give more game time to more players to build a squad that can contest the full 80 minutes. There's an element of flattering to deceive. We won last week with a huge performance in the face of adversity. This week we had the Boks completely on the rack but couldn't last the pace.

If we're ever going to get to the next level and genuinely compete with the top nations, we can't be losing games like today. It's no better than Wales giving New Zealand a game for 40 minutes and then getting blown out of it.

In a way today was all about squad building as we'd

Gilroy back in a green jersey
Jackson starting again
Olding getting a start
Furlong getting a start
Roux getting a start
Ruddock getting another start

Then on the bench you'd newbie's in Kilcoyne, Bealham, Reidy, and Marmion.

I'm not sure if there is a combined 30 starts between the 10 players here, and that's with PJ and Gilroy having 14 between them!

AbusesToilets

Ireland were unlucky with some of those calls. The turn over by SA on about 65, where Ireland were attacking from the kick-off, SA players flying in off their feet. Likewise the turn over Ireland should have been awarded just before De Toit's try. Small margins.

Felix Jones is God

We mixed the very good with the very bad yesterday. Paddy Jackson was magnificent in the first half and very happy for the guy.
Our scrum was excellent, Roux acquitted himself well for the most part, likewise Ruddock & Olding....but after 60 mins, we switched off. Tiredness, cramp, missed tackles, altitude, poor decisions, no attacking emphasis with our subs all led to our downfall...and it hurts.
But, it's all to play for next week, Stander, Dillane, Earls will all be back fit and firing, possibly only Henshaw will be missing, but we have the midfield cover to negate that loss.... Personally, I think we are for the game and that we should wrap up a 2-1 series win

kuang1

thomond2006 wrote: »

Furlong was really good. Why revert to Ross?

Because he was really good in the 1st test, now he's also the fresher player.
That's why.

kuang1

vetinari wrote: »

But there's no substitute for it. We simply can't build a stronger squad without exposing more players to test rugby.

Eh...how long have you been watching Ireland under Joe????

An absolutely rib-tickling remark!

salmocab

For me it was a good performance for first hour or so, pity we didn't have a stronger bench but in fairness people were calling for new blood which we got and the reality is not too many of yesterdays bench will make next weeks bench probably Bealham and Madigan.
Id bring Ross back in purely because he can do his job for an hour then spring Furlong who can make a difference but the opposite wouldn't be true. There is a lot to be said to finishing with a strong XV which happened last week but wasn't a possibility this week. Next week being able to bring in late Furlong Cronin Dillane and one of Stander Ruddock or Jordi can make a massive difference.

awec

former total wrote: »

I think today confirmed what most of us already knew. We are not as bad as was made out after the 6N but not as good as was made out after last week.

Likewise, South Africa were always going to improve as they went on.

Big performers for me today were Furlong, Ruddock, Henderson and Trimble. Payne was very good but continues to show me that 13 is his best position.

Jackson was OK but that's about it. We are still hopelessly reliant on Sexton.

Gilroy did well. His main objective was to remain solid and he did.

No one played badly really but too many tired bodies and too many missed tackles in the last 20. Joe has to shoulder some blame for that.

Really? I don't think we've missed sexton at all these two tests.

Murray is the half back that Ireland are hopelessly dependent on at this point, not sexton.

Also I cannot fathom how anyone can watch Payne these past two weeks and come to the conclusion he's better at 13. Makes no sense whatsoever.

kuang1

awec wrote: »

Really? I don't think we've missed sexton at all these two tests.

Murray is the half back that Ireland are hopelessly dependent on at this point, not sexton.

Also I cannot fathom how anyone can watch Payne these past two weeks and come to the conclusion he's better at 13. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Agreed, agreed and agreed.

However we may yet see him back at 13 if Henshaw is out.
And I wouldn't object too much given that the drop off from Payne to (for example) TOH at 15 would be a lot less than the drop to having say an Olding/Marshall centre combo.
(I do rate both olding and marshall btw.)

phog

awec wrote: »

Really? I don't think we've missed sexton at all these two tests.

Murray is the half back that Ireland are hopelessly dependent on at this point, not sexton.

Also I cannot fathom how anyone can watch Payne these past two weeks and come to the conclusion he's better at 13. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Agree on all three points.

LorMal

awec wrote: »

Really? I don't think we've missed sexton at all these two tests.

Murray is the half back that Ireland are hopelessly dependent on at this point, not sexton.

Also I cannot fathom how anyone can watch Payne these past two weeks and come to the conclusion he's better at 13. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I totally agree about sexton and Payne. I am not so convinced about Murray - why is he irreplaceable?
I think he can still be slow in his distribution and he over relies on the box kick - putting us under tremendous pressure in the second half yesterday.
He's another sacred cow in Irish Rugby.

First Up

LorMal wrote: »

I totally agree about sexton and Payne. I am not so convinced about Murray - why is he irreplaceable?
I think he can still be slow in his distribution and he over relies on the box kick - putting us under tremendous pressure in the second half yesterday.
He's another sacred cow in Irish Rugby.

He is also a brilliant defender. He overdoes the box kick for sure but I guess he is playing to orders. It became a bad tactic when fatigue created far more room for the Boks to run at but at that stage we were there for the taking anyway.

awec

LorMal wrote: »

I totally agree about sexton and Payne. I am not so convinced about Murray - why is he irreplaceable?
I think he can still be slow in his distribution and he over relies on the box kick - putting us under tremendous pressure in the second half yesterday.
He's another sacred cow in Irish Rugby.

We've no backup 9 of a similar standard. The situation for 9 right now is the same as it was for 10 a few years ago. A first choice who is streets ahead, an old guy as backup and a young lad who is not quite there yet.

phog

LorMal wrote: »

I totally agree about sexton and Payne. I am not so convinced about Murray - why is he irreplaceable?
I think he can still be slow in his distribution and he over relies on the box kick - putting us under tremendous pressure in the second half yesterday.
He's another sacred cow in Irish Rugby.

What gametime have the reserve scrumhalfs got in this tour, that in itself tell it's own story.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

if schmidt does not pick his freshest 23 next week we could get a proper trimming.
best heaslip jackson henshaw murray trimble need a well earned rest.

mcgrath cronin furlong toner dillane henderson stander ruddock marrimon madigan healy payne marshall gilroy ohalloran
bealham best kilcoyne roux murphy murray jackson earls

lets show some faith in our squad

jblowsdsl

I must say this was a great match. I thought the Springboks were going to lose again but, what can I say they came back in the second half and upset the Irish team. Game on!!!!!

LorMal

awec wrote: »

We've no backup 9 of a similar standard. The situation for 9 right now is the same as it was for 10 a few years ago. A first choice who is streets ahead, an old guy as backup and a young lad who is not quite there yet.

How do we know he's not ready yet? He was brilliant for Connaught v Leinster and has had an excellent season.
There have already been a couple of shifts in the established pecking order on this tour (as you correctly stated in your post) - why not a third?

former total

awec wrote: »

Really? I don't think we've missed sexton at all these two tests.

Murray is the half back that Ireland are hopelessly dependent on at this point, not sexton.

Also I cannot fathom how anyone can watch Payne these past two weeks and come to the conclusion he's better at 13. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Jackson has been good but both performances have been littered with individual errors. We accept them because he is still feeling his way into the role and you make allowances for guys making the step up to test intensity but he is not there yet. It's been a very positive tour for him but there is still a considerable gap to Sexton.

Payne has been very good but in the same way he is very good at 13; as a fulcrum of the team's structure, as a link player for those around him. Some lovely feet in traffic, some lovely offloads but searing linebreaks, a genuine threat from deep? Not really.

irishbucsfan

I'd imagine we'll be picking a full strength team next week. I would have:

McGrath, Best, Furlong, Henderson, Toner, Stander, Ruddock, Heaslip;
Murray, Jackson, Earls, Marshall, Henshaw, Trimble, Payne
Cronin, Bealham, Ross, Dillane, Murphy, Marmion, Madigan, Gilroy

I don't disagree that hte likes of Best, Heaslip and Trimble deserve a well earned rest, which is why it's pretty convenient that this is the last game they'll have to play until October. They can leave everything on the field this weekend.

UnknownEntity

kuang1 wrote:

Because he was really good in the 1st test, now he's also the fresher player. That's why.

I feel like Furlong handled the scrum much better than Ross did.

UnknownEntity

irishbucsfan wrote:

McGrath, Best, Furlong, Henderson, Toner, Stander, Ruddock, Heaslip; Murray, Sexton, Earls, Marshall, Henshaw, Trimble, Payne Cronin, Bealham, Ross, Dillane, Murphy, Marmion, Madigan, Gilroy

Is Sexton going to be back for next week? Thought he was injured for the whole series.