Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Water John

Well, it seems Leo's instinct was to get rid of her, but was prevailed otherwise. Doubtful he'll pass up this opportunity for reform. This is his first test. Change, or sameo, sameo.
Frances doesn't count.

Donal55

Water John wrote: »

Well, it seems Leo's instinct was to get rid of her, but was prevailed otherwise. Doubtful he'll pass up this opportunity for reform. This is his first test. Change, or sameo, sameo.
Frances doesn't count.

Eh, didn't Leo have confidence in her only 2 or 3 days ago.

Water John

Those lazy journalist questions rate about the same as, have you stopped beating your wife?

Larbre34

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Only a non Irish import who has never previously stepped foot in the state will do at this stage.

And why would any sane police professional who can read english language reportage remotely consider even applying for the position of Garda Commissioner?

If the next Commish isn't again an insider, i'll eat Noirín's now defunct hat. The alternative, is no Commissioner for a long long time.

Seth Brundle

What package was Nóirín on?
I wonder if it will be increased to attract someone who is up to the job

Larbre34

Her salary was €180,613. It would appear to be a single point scale. It is her 36 years service accrued that will give her a lump sum entitlement in the upper €200k's and an annual pension of a little less than €90,000. Needless to say, career averaging hasnt percolated through the entire public service as yet.

If they were to appoint a new Commissioner with no previous Irish public service, they could afford to set the salary higher, as pension liability would be negligible.

However, I can foresee a situation where a civilian administrator, something like a company examiner, is appointed to act as a bridge between the Govt and Dept and AGS to push the reform agenda hard and leave new structures in place for an eventual new Commissioner.

Water John

Paul Reynolds failing in his job to have insight into her decision. Repeated many of her positions on events.

Muahahaha

Im glad she is gone but at the same time annoyed that now she will likely never attend the Tribunal, part of which was established to see was she involved in a whispering campaign against Maurice McCabe. She has questions to answer there and now it looks like she will never be held accountable and sail off into the sunset with the lump sum. Something stinks about that imo.

Anyway Nuala OLoan is the only person I can think of that would be fit for the job. She did a remarkable job reforming the RUC so it is right up her street. And maybe not even as Commish but as head of a separate unit dedicated to root and branch reform and perhaps have a new Commish from abroad to deal with the day to day running of the organisation.

The Rape of Lucretia

Larbre34 wrote: »

And why would any sane police professional who can read english language reportage remotely consider even applying for the position of Garda Commissioner?

If the next Commish isn't again an insider, i'll eat Noirín's now defunct hat. The alternative, is no Commissioner for a long long time.

No insider will be able to shake off O'Sullivan's problem of being seen, and probably in practice being, inextricably linkable to the problems, no matter what their good intentions at cleaning up the force.

An outside, will not be tarred with that brush, and can legitimately be seen, and in practice likely be, an independent fixer, with no loyalties, no skeletons in the cupboard, and have more credibility with the public, the various watchdogs, and the good members within AGS happy to trust they are there to do a serious cleanup job.

Larbre34

Of course they would, but again, who in their right mind would apply?

The Rape of Lucretia

Larbre34 wrote: »

Of course they would, but again, who in their right mind would apply?

An outsider has nothing to lose. Someone ambitious in law enforcement. For that cash, there will always be applicants, and possible some good ones. Most likely someone who sees it as an in and out job of 3-5 years. It wont be a careerist settling in for the long term - the scorched earth and enemies they will make as they root out the problems would make that a non runner anyway. There are such high flyers who go around running/reforming/restructuring health services, education, tax collection, etc in different countries to their home one. One was brough in here for a while for banking regulation after the crash when it was similarly clear that the internal staff had clearly failed and someone not part of that failure, with restructuring specialist skills was needed. After the few years they move on to another similar high post in public or provate sectors in another country.

mattser

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

An outsider has nothing to lose. Someone ambitious in law enforcement. For that cash, there will always be applicants, and possible some good ones. Most likely someone who sees it as an in and out job of 3-5 years. It wont be a careerist settling in for the long term - the scorched earth and enemies they will make as they root out the problems would make that a non runner anyway. There are such high flyers who go around running/reforming/restructuring health services, education, tax collection, etc in different countries to their home one. One was brough in here for a while for banking regulation after the crash when it was similarly clear that the internal staff had clearly failed and someone not part of that failure, with restructuring specialist skills was needed. After the few years they move on to another similar high post in public or provate sectors in another country.

And are unaccountable for the mess they inevitably leave in their wake, as they ride off into the sunset. Thanks, but no thanks.

blanch152

Larbre34 wrote: »

Her salary was €180,613. It would appear to be a single point scale. It is her 36 years service accrued that will give her a lump sum entitlement in the upper €200k's and an annual pension of a little less than €90,000. Needless to say, career averaging hasnt percolated through the entire public service as yet.

If they were to appoint a new Commissioner with no previous Irish public service, they could afford to set the salary higher, as pension liability would be negligible.

However, I can foresee a situation where a civilian administrator, something like a company examiner, is appointed to act as a bridge between the Govt and Dept and AGS to push the reform agenda hard and leave new structures in place for an eventual new Commissioner.

36 years of service would give her a pension of €81,275 if it was calculated on the €180,613 salary. However I read somewhere that she won't be three years in the job until end-November. If true, that means that part (a small part) of the pension will be based on a lower salary, probably bringing it below 81k. Lump sum would be 240k.

Not quite the sums being mentioned in the newspapers but a very nice package.

Ace2007

blanch152 wrote: »

36 years of service would give her a pension of €81,275 if it was calculated on the €180,613 salary. However I read somewhere that she won't be three years in the job until end-November. If true, that means that part (a small part) of the pension will be based on a lower salary, probably bringing it below 81k. Lump sum would be 240k.

Not quite the sums being mentioned in the newspapers but a very nice package.

depends how her pension is calculated - your assuming its the accrual method, but having 36 years service more than likely she's in the pre 95 brigade which gives 50% of her pensionable pay as a pension - so it's probably closer to 90k. In addition she may have retired with effect from a date in November and was asked to step down right away/use remaining holidays etc. to make up the shortfall.

djPSB

So is a civilian Commissioner needed to finally clean up this mess and finally bring some governance to the organisation?

blanch152

Ace2007 wrote: »

depends how her pension is calculated - your assuming its the accrual method, but having 36 years service more than likely she's in the pre 95 brigade which gives 50% of her pensionable pay as a pension - so it's probably closer to 90k. In addition she may have retired with effect from a date in November and was asked to step down right away/use remaining holidays etc. to make up the shortfall.

36 years service in the pre-95 scheme would normally give you 36/80 of final salary.

What I did forget though was the Garda fast accrual whereby every year of service after 20 years counts double. Her 36 years of Garda service is therefore worth 52 years of normal service, thankfully it is capped at 40 years, so I was wrong and here pension will be close to 90k.

Larbre34

My initial figures were an informed estimate lads, you'd need to see her service record to get it down to the penny, suffice it to say we are in the ballpark. Not to mention her husband who remains in service as a Chief Superintendent bringing his salary home.

Now, I have no problem with people working hard to get to senior positions and getting the established package advertised with the role, but what I do have a problem with is being able to cash out and walk away in the middle of unresolved investigations. To my mind, an element should be withheld in any such circumstances in the public service, where performance questions remain unanswered at the time of departure. A similar circumstance would have been the financial regulator at the time of the bank collapses.

I do agree a civilian Commish is the best way to proceed and have policing professionals in charge of the sub-divisions of policing operations, at Deputy level, while enhancing the civilianisation of finance, HR, corporate services, procurement, internal audit etc.

johnnyskeleton

Larbre34 wrote: »

Now, I have no problem with people working hard to get to senior positions and getting the established package advertised with the role, but what I do have a problem with is being able to cash out and walk away in the middle of unresolved investigations.

I'm not sure that this is entirely fair. She was under massive pressure to resign, which she did on her own terms, but she did because of the massive pressure on her. It's not like she quit at a time when everyone wanted her to stay.

To my mind, an element should be withheld in any such circumstances in the public service, where performance questions remain unanswered at the time of departure. A similar circumstance would have been the financial regulator at the time of the bank collapses.

Would this not discourage the next person from taking on the job? It seems to be a very difficult task to reform the Gardai. I don't believe O'Sullivan was a bad commissioner and I think she was stymied by the scandals rather than being the cause of them. Who would take over from her if their remuneration would be dependent on reforming an organisation that doesn't seem overly keen on change?

I do agree a civilian Commish is the best way to proceed and have policing professionals in charge of the sub-divisions of policing operations, at Deputy level, while enhancing the civilianisation of finance, HR, corporate services, procurement, internal audit etc.

Civilian oversight should be the purview of the government / Minister for Justice. That's what we pay them the big bucks for. A civilian commissioner seems a little too much like the government passing the responsibility on rather than dealing with it as they should.

Water John

The only people who seem to hold the AGS to account, were the outsiders in their employ, as we saw, in front of the Dail Committee.
So it must be an external Chief, from another force or civilian.

Was their a problem indicated, the last time, as to a civilian not being able to fulfil some of the role?

Larbre34

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'm not sure that this is entirely fair. She was under massive pressure to resign, which she did on her own terms, but she did because of the massive pressure on her. It's not like she quit at a time when everyone wanted her to stay.

Like Callinan before her, she retired, not resigned. It amounts to the same thing as regards the organisation and the politics, but there aren't too many gigs you can "resign" from and take a fat cheque and big fortnightly stipend without any resolution to the issues that precipitated her departure in the first place.

wrote:

Would this not discourage the next person from taking on the job? It seems to be a very difficult task to reform the Gardai. I don't believe O'Sullivan was a bad commissioner and I think she was stymied by the scandals rather than being the cause of them. Who would take over from her if their remuneration would be dependent on reforming an organisation that doesn't seem overly keen on change?

It could well discourage them, but its the nearest thing the public sector can do to mirror similar roles in the commercial world. As tax payers we have a right to demand some quality, not the series of clock punchers we have had. If people feel they are up to it and want to make a name for themselves, they will apply. They will then live or die by their efforts.

wrote:

Civilian oversight should be the purview of the government / Minister for Justice. That's what we pay them the big bucks for. A civilian commissioner seems a little too much like the government passing the responsibility on rather than dealing with it as they should.

It should be, but there are many fine examples in our state apparatus where it isn't. I'm not suggesting another parallel entity like the HSE (although we do have the police authority for heaven knows what), but I am suggesting a transitional arrangement where a total outsider, with no vested interest, leads on the painful reform and then a new structure is adopted.

blanch152

Larbre34 wrote: »

It could well discourage them, but its the nearest thing the public sector can do to mirror similar roles in the commercial world. As tax payers we have a right to demand some quality, not the series of clock punchers we have had. If people feel they are up to it and want to make a name for themselves, they will apply. They will then live or die by their efforts.


.

You won't get someone from the commercial world who is able for the job on a short-term contract for 180k.

Seth Brundle

How many bags of shredded material will she produce I wonder?

mattser

kbannon wrote: »

How many bags of shredded material will she produce I wonder?

That's a pretty cheap shot.

Water John

Well, people are long past giving the benefit of the doubt. It's just gone on too long. When did the racket in Donegal kick off? That's a generation ago.
Still no change.

Seth Brundle

mattser wrote: »

That's a pretty cheap shot.

Why? It would be in keeping with her predecessor!

Dinarius

Water John wrote: »

Well, it seems Leo's instinct was to get rid of her, but was prevailed otherwise. Doubtful he'll pass up this opportunity for reform. This is his first test. Change, or sameo, sameo.
Frances doesn't count.

Slightly off-topic, but Leo will turn out to be jogging-in-the-park-schmooze and very little substance. He's a tough, backroom fixer, in the Michael Noonan mould. He is no leader, of party or state.

O'Sullivan retiring (at our considerable expense) solves nothing. On the contrary, it leaves a huge vacuum, which I doubt will be filled in a way that gives us a police force that is both effective and accountable. We are as far from that as ever.

D.

McMurphy

emo72 wrote: »

Can she be compelled to attend the enquiry?

I heard Pat Kenny on the radio this morning suggest that because she will be in receipt of a state pension, she most probably could be compelled to.

I believe it was Mick Clifford he was discussing this with, and Clifford agreed.

flutered

mattser wrote: »

That's a pretty cheap shot.

why so, her previous boss had many of them

Muahahaha

mattser wrote: »

That's a pretty cheap shot.

Given how many of her mobile phones that she has not produced for the Charleston Tribunal it is not a cheap shot at all. In fact it is nail on the head stuff.

Water John

Good grief, members of the force wanting the new leader to have come up through the ranks.
'you can't just buy in Neymar'!!!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/garda%C3%AD-want-next-commissioner-to-have-served-in-force-1.3217078