Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Captain Obvious

Water John wrote: »

It seems the Acting Garda Commisioner is quite different than the 2 who went before him. That is, according to Mr. Barrett.
Looks like the whole thing had become , a bit of a personal fiefdom.

All Gardai and retired Gardai would want to consider that, their loyalty is to the state and its citizens.

It's no secret that the divide between management and frontline has gotten quite large over the last few years since Fachtna Murphy stepped down. He was considered to be a Garda, the last two were considered politicians, although it's possible that has something to do with who was running the country during their tenure too.

Appointments being made by the Policing Authority is a massive step. You can already see the difference in the acting commissioner. It's also visible in Assistant Commissioner Pat Leahy in his cancellation of overtime and comments on Stepaside station reopening. No interest in optics. It's refreshing.

Water John

I actually don't think it takes a lot of action but a change of culture. Once the culture changes all those, many whose names have made into the public domain now, will retire as they won't feel at home and will be frozen in position without prospect of promotion.
But, change of culture, is the most difficult of all.

mattser

Water John wrote: »

It seems the Acting Garda Commisioner is quite different than the 2 who went before him. That is, according to Mr. Barrett.
Looks like the whole thing had become , a bit of a personal fiefdom.

All Gardai and retired Gardai would want to consider that, their loyalty is to the state and its citizens.

I'd imagine all retired Gardai, would now only be loyal to family & friends above all else.

Odhinn

Gardai were able to hide their involvement in the cancellation of penalty points by logging into the Garda computer system using the credentials of retired ex-colleagues.
The shocking practice has been revealed in a report by the Garda Ombudsman, which provides further evidence of the widespread abuse by gardaí of the penalty points system in recent years.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pretended-to-be-retired-colleagues-when-they-cancelled-penalty-points-gsoc-report-36370363.html

Gets worse as it goes on, really. They probably don't know who logged in as who, so prosecutions are probably impossible.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pretended-to-be-retired-colleagues-when-they-cancelled-penalty-points-gsoc-report-36370363.html

Gets worse as it goes on, really. They probably don't know who logged in as who, so prosecutions are probably impossible.

Prosecutions were always going to be next to impossible, just like with the breath tests. In both cases the data recording systems were insufficient, which is how the issues arose in the first place. i don't think people get how antiquated the Garda IT system is. PULSE is basically a crappier version of Microsoft Access.

James Brown

How much is too much for accountability?

There has been widespread exploitation of the fixed charge penalty notice system by senior gardaí, according to a report by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission.

The report contains the findings of an investigation by GSOC arising out of complaints by Sergeant Maurice McCabe about abuse of the system.

It found 442 members of the force were authorised to cancel the notices in four years.

The report says senior officers breached policy by carrying out widespread cancellations outside their own areas.

One senior member of the force cancelled 744 notices across 17 counties.

It also says the credentials of retired senior gardaí, who had been authorised to cancel fixed charge notices, were used to authorise cancellations.

The report adds that 72% of all cancelled fixed charge notices were simply recorded as "cancelled", with no further explanation given.

GSOC began its investigation into the abuse of the penalty points system almost four years ago and examined the five years from 2009 to 2014.

It met five times with Sgt McCabe and says its findings confirm his information in relation to improper cancellations.

However the report looked at the system rather than individual cases.

GSOC said it has now closed its investigation and will not pursue criminal or disciplinary proceedings because the cost would outweigh the benefit.

The lowest quote it received from an outside agency was over a €1m with a real risk it could cost more.

The force's cancellation policy has since been changed and authorisation to cancel penalty points is now restricted to a small number of officers.

The Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan said he accepts the conclusions drawn in the report that continuing the investigation further would not be in the public interest in light of the continuing progress and oversight of the fixed charge penalty system.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1201/924228-penalty-notices/

I think 1m towards holding corrupt Garda to account, and being a lesson to others, might be a bargain.

Another case of 'yeah, bad things happened. But we now know that they did and that's what's important'. Problem solved?
The nameless Garda, who broke the rules but won't have any come back, must be terrified.
Nice to see Charlie 'rubber stamp, keep the head down' Flanagan at work.

Water John

Just because the Tribunal found against Keith Harrison, we now have an attempt at, name and shame the TDs who helped him. WTF

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/the-tds-who-backed-keith-harrison-36372197.html

Hitman3000

Water John wrote:

Just because the Tribunal found against Keith Harrison, we now have an attempt at, name and shame the TDs who helped him. WTF

The TD's took Harrison at his word. They acted in good faith. I don't see a problem and it's enough to see the Indo leading the charge.

blanch152

Water John wrote: »

Just because the Tribunal found against Keith Harrison, we now have an attempt at, name and shame the TDs who helped him. WTF

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/the-tds-who-backed-keith-harrison-36372197.html

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The TD's took Harrison at his word. They acted in good faith. I don't see a problem and it's enough to see the Indo leading the charge.

Those TDs owe an apology to those senior Gardai vindicated by the Tribunal, they owe an apology to those in Tusla who dealt with that case. As is the norm with the kangaroo courts of the left, like Doherty, Wallace and Daly, they found the Gardai and Tusla guilty before the facts were examined.

Water John

It's not a matter for apology. Public representatives of all hues, help citizens, in good faith.

blanch152

Water John wrote: »

It's not a matter for apology. Public representatives of all hues, help citizens, in good faith.

It is a matter for apology, because they went well over the top in their attacks on the integrity of the Gardai and Tusla officials involved. If they had just restricted themselves to saying there were questions to be answered, they wouldn't need to apologise, but in the rush to self-publicise and to abuse the government, they overstepped and an apology is required.

Some humble pie wouldn't do some of them any harm.

blanch152

Water John wrote: »

It's not a matter for apology. Public representatives of all hues, help citizens, in good faith.

Just like Fitzgerald allowed the Gardai and the Commissioner their right to a defence before the Tribunal in good faith?

What is sauce for the goose.....

Hitman3000

Public representatives representing members of the Public. Absolutely no apology necessary or required imho.

Water John

The problem is the defence used by NOS at the Tribunal was not in good faith.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Public representatives representing members of the Public. Absolutely no apology necessary or required imho.

Ordinary members of the public doing their job as gardai and tusla officials are fair game for the likes of Wallace, Daly and Doherty, but Keith Harrison gets a free pass.

We now know that they will listen to anyone with a half-hearted sob story, no discernment at all.

Obvious Otter

Legislation should be brought in to ensure senior civil servants are held to account for their role. It’s becoming obvious that the Gardai and the DoJ are too big of a mess to reform. It’s crazy to think that all of this incompetence is comes at a hefty expense to the taxpayer. It’s just scandal after scandal.

Our criminal justice system is a complete embarrassment and a soft touch too.

Our civil service is riddled with complete incompetence.

Muahahaha

blanch152 wrote: »

Those TDs owe an apology to those senior Gardai vindicated by the Tribunal, they owe an apology to those in Tusla who dealt with that case. As is the norm with the kangaroo courts of the left, like Doherty, Wallace and Daly, they found the Gardai and Tusla guilty before the facts were examined.

The TDs took in good faith what they were told. Just as Leo did from his mammy Francy only last weekend.

What I have always wondered about the Keith Harrison section of the tribunal is why was his allegations against a detective in the Athlone district as being involved in running and profiting from the heroin trade never made part of the terms of reference? It is a pretty substantial allegation and yet the terms of reference as set out by Fine Gael omitted it. We already know that the Gardai have form when it comes to the supply of heroin with their protection of a known heroin trafficker Kieran Boylan http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/kieran-boylan/

You would have thought that if the Gardai were already implicated in trafficking heroin then an allegation of a senior Garda being involved in the heroin trade in Athlone would have merited investigation by the tribunal.

For some reason Francis Fitzgerald and the Fine Gael govt, seemed to think that this part of Garda Harrisons complaints did not warrant any investigation at all by the tribunal. I have never seen a legitimate reason given for it. Really strange stuff.

blanch152

Muahahaha wrote: »

The TDs took in good faith what they were told. Just as Leo did from his mammy Francy only last weekend.

What I have always wondered about the Keith Harrison section of the tribunal is why was his allegations against a detective in the Athlone district as being involved in running and profiting from the heroin trade never made part of the terms of reference? It is a pretty substantial allegation and yet the terms of reference as set out by Fine Gael omitted it. We already know that the Gardai have form when it comes to the supply of heroin with their protection of a known heroin trafficker Kieran Boylan http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/kieran-boylan/

You would have thought that if the Gardai were already implicated in trafficking heroin then an allegation of a senior Garda being involved in the heroin trade in Athlone would have merited investigation by the tribunal.

For some reason Francis Fitzgerald and the Fine Gael govt, seemed to think that this part of Garda Harrisons complaints did not warrant any investigation at all by the tribunal. I have never seen a legitimate reason given for it. Really strange stuff.

You would think that people supporting Keith Harrison would be a little bit sheepish today following the findings of the Tribunal. Not so, it seems.

In the light of the findings, his claim about Athlone seems even more fantastical than before, yet some cling to the lack of credibility.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

You would think that people supporting Keith Harrison would be a little bit sheepish today following the findings of the Tribunal. Not so, it seems.

Why? The TD's/people that supported him do so in good faith.

Muahahaha

blanch152 wrote: »

You would think that people supporting Keith Harrison would be a little bit sheepish today following the findings of the Tribunal. Not so, it seems.

In the light of the findings, his claim about Athlone seems even more fantastical than before, yet some cling to the lack of credibility.

I am just interested into why Harrisons allegation the facilitation of iheroin dealing by a Garda dectective in Athlone was completely overlooked by Fine Gael when they framed the terms of reference?

Are you saying Harrison was lying about this episode? If he was then why did Fine Gael / Dept.of Justice / An Gardai not have it included in the terms of reference.

Trafficking of heroin by Gardai has already happened. Would you not think that investigating another instance of this should be a priority for any Minister of Justice ?

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

Ordinary members of the public doing their job as gardai and tusla officials are fair game for the likes of Wallace, Daly and Doherty,........

Sorry, but could you substantiate that remark?

blanch152

Muahahaha wrote: »

I am just interested into why Harrisons allegation the facilitation of iheroin dealing by a Garda dectective in Athlone was completely overlooked by Fine Gael when they framed the terms of reference?

Are you saying Harrison was lying about this episode? If he was then why did Fine Gael / Dept.of Justice / An Gardai not have it included in the terms of reference.

Trafficking of heroin by Gardai has already happened. Would you not think that investigating another instance of this should be a priority for any Minister of Justice ?

No, why would we indulge someone who has already been found by a Tribunal to be a sinister version of Walter Mitty?

I mean, I could make all sorts of allegations about all sorts of people - does that mean there should be a Tribunal everytime someone alleges something?

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

Sorry, but could you substantiate that remark?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/the-tds-who-backed-keith-harrison-36372197.html

"Mick Wallace TD raised Gda Harrison's case in January, and later said: "As soon as Keith Harrison put his head above the parapet, he got barraged from all angles by the hierarchy of the force, which had not changed its spots.""

"Clare Daly asked: "Harrison, a member of the Garda? Senior management pressured his girlfriend into making a complaint against him. He had to go to the High Court to stop an action against him..."

"Pearse Doherty was raising matters relating to Garda Harrison. "Garda Keith Harrison claims that as a result of arresting a member of the drugs unit in Athlone for drunk driving, that Garda management maliciously set out targeting him, while the arrested garda was afforded protection by Garda management."

The people that Doherty, Daly and Wallace are maliciously maligning in those quotes are ordinary members of the public working in Tusla and the Gardai, doing honest jobs every day and they deserve at least the courtesy of an apology but if those politicians have any decency in them, those honest hardworking public officials deserve a lot more than that.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

No, why would we indulge someone who has already been found by a Tribunal to be a sinister version of Walter Mitty?

I mean, I could make all sorts of allegations about all sorts of people - does that mean there should be a Tribunal everytime someone alleges something?

So FG decided on this before a Tribunal took place?

Sounds par for the course that.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So FG decided on this before a Tribunal took place?

Sounds par for the course that.

I find it absolutely incredible that anyone is giving Gda Harrison any credibility following the release of that Tribunal report.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I find it absolutely incredible that anyone is giving Gda Harrison any credibility following the release of that Tribunal report.

We are talking about something that was decided on before the tribunal took place.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are talking about something that was decided on before the tribunal took place.

Yes, Gda Harrison had some detailed accusations about how he was treated himself as well as some even more fantastical accusations about Athlone.

The government decided to leave the fantasy Athlone ones out of the ToRs, which of course doesn't prevent them being added at a later stage. So they saved the State some money.

Unless of course, you are now suggesting, in the light of the Tribunal report on the Harrison module, and the credibility that he still has, that the Athlone accusations should now be added to the ToRs. That would be an incredible bizarre conclusion to reach.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Unless of course, you are now suggesting, in the light of the Tribunal report on the Harrison module, and the credibility that he still has, that the Athlone accusations should now be added to the ToRs. That would be an incredible bizarre conclusion to reach.

Just a question, but you from Athlone blanch?

Water John

The Athlone Branch of FG?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, Gda Harrison had some detailed accusations about how he was treated himself as well as some even more fantastical accusations about Athlone.

The government decided to leave the fantasy Athlone ones out of the ToRs, which of course doesn't prevent them being added at a later stage. So they saved the State some money.

Unless of course, you are now suggesting, in the light of the Tribunal report on the Harrison module, and the credibility that he still has, that the Athlone accusations should now be added to the ToRs. That would be an incredible bizarre conclusion to reach.

I'm wondering, like others, how they managed to decide they were 'fantastical' without an investigation.
Could you possibly deal with that? Without hindsight.