Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Mr.Micro

Water John wrote: »

Good grief, members of the force wanting the new leader to have come up through the ranks.
'you can't just buy in Neymar'!!!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/garda%C3%AD-want-next-commissioner-to-have-served-in-force-1.3217078

Civilians and Army personnel need to be appointed to run An Garda. Appointing someone from within the rotten force is not the answer.

djPSB

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Civilians and Army personnel need to be appointed to run An Garda. Appointing someone from within the rotten force is not the answer.

The Army run a very effective operation to be fair with the resources they have.

A much more professional outfit than AGS.

The boys down in Templemore would get some shock.

Larbre34

What a stupid comment from the detective that you "can't just buy Neymar". Tell that to PSG. If he values his organisation and wants to see integrity restored, he shouldnt be concerned about the origin of the next Commish.

Its a typical nod-and-wink Garda culture remark that "an english fella might find himself a bit lost". Exactly the sort of stuff that needs eliminating.

Bad news for that detective - Bernard Hogan-Howe, Hugh Orde and Stephen House are all available, the Gardai might be just the challenge they might relish and they can indeed be bought!

Larbre34

djPSB wrote: »

The Army run a very effective operation to be fair with the resources they have.

A much more professional outfit than AGS.

The boys down in Templemore would get some shock.

Agreed.

The lines have been blurred in recent years as to whether the Gardai is a service or a force. To my mind it is a force, and it should have military discipline therein.

I also agree with various commentators that would like to see intelligence, international crime, anti-terrorism, immigration and armed intervention capacity stripped out of the guards into a separate body and let the Garda do the day to day policing of civic society with renewed focus. An Irish Gendarmarie or Carabinieri would be no bad thing.

Muahahaha

The new acting Commissioner.
Full story here http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/09/12/meet-the-new-acting-commissioner/

Further to Noirin O’Sullivan stepping down from her position as Garda Commissioner.

The new acting Garda Commissioner, until a replacement is found, is Deputy Commissioner Dónal Ó Cualáin.

Readers may wish to note that Mr O’Cualáin has previously been named in the Dáil, in relation to claims of a cover-up regarding Garda collusion with heroin dealers.

Garda Keith Harrison first raised his suspicion that a garda was involved in the distribution of drugs in Athlone in November 2008 but he claims, in a complaint to GSOC and in his statement to the Disclosures Tribunal, that nothing happened on foot of making his suspicions known.

Garda Harrison later arrested this same garda for drink-driving in June 2009.

Garda Nicky Keogh then made a formal complaint to the then Confidential Recipient Judge Pat McMahon about the same garda and the sale of heroin in Athlone in May 2014.

His complaint was investigated by then Assistant Commissioner Donal Ó Cualáin.

In October 2015, Garda Keogh made a complaint to GSOC regarding the manner in which the then Assistant Commissioner Dónal Ó Cualáin was carrying out his investigation into the alleged involvement of a garda into heroin dealing with Garda Keogh alleging that there appeared to be a cover-up.

Later that month, Mr Ó Cualáin was promoted to Deputy Commissioner.

Garda Keith Harrison and his allegations about Gardai being involved in the dealing of heroin form part of the Charleston Tribunal. It will be interesting to see what the new acting commissioner has to tell the Tribunal on his investigation of the matter. Garda Harrison certainly seems to believe that there was a cover-up at the highest levels. Time will tell.

djPSB

Larbre34 wrote: »

Agreed.

The lines have been blurred in recent years as to whether the Gardai is a service or a force. To my mind it is a force, and it should have military discipline therein.

I also agree with various commentators that would like to see intelligence, international crime, anti-terrorism, immigration and armed intervention capacity stripped out of the guards into a separate body and let the Garda do the day to day policing of civic society with renewed focus. An Irish Gendarmarie or Carabinieri would be no bad thing.

I don't know how one would define it in its current state. Almost a civil service department pretending to provide an operational service.

The culture of the organisation stinks and unfortunately that starts from the minute a new recruit walks in the door in Templemore. It's like a summer camp down there.

Having worked with both the AGS and the Defence Forces, the army are a much more professional and well run organisation. Probably an example setter for any of our state entities. They do have issues in relation to pay for lower ranks etc. but alot of these issues are political and outside of their hands.

What's interesting is that the Defence Forces have had a lot of retirements at Senior Level over the past couple of years, some of whom would be very good candidates for AGS and have proper executive management experience including overseas.

kevthegaff

Muahahaha wrote:

Garda Keith Harrison and his allegations about Gardai being involved in the dealing of heroin form part of the Charleston Tribunal. It will be interesting to see what the new acting commissioner has to tell the Tribunal on his investigation of the matter. Garda Harrison certainly seems to believe that there was a cover-up at the highest levels. Time will tell.

So we have another commissioner who seems to have been involved in cover ups, u couldn't make it up..

Water John

Many of those senior retiring army personnel, have a skillset that has a demand in the private sector. For some, it's their opportunity to make up ground financially.

gizmo555

Water John wrote: »

Many of those senior retiring army personnel, have a skillset that has a demand in the private sector. For some, it's their opportunity to make up ground financially.

Well, if the Garda Commissioner salary is substantially increased as has been suggested to attract international interest, it might well interest these gentlemen too.

Captain Obvious

djPSB wrote: »

I don't know how one would define it in its current state. Almost a civil service department pretending to provide an operational service.

The culture of the organisation stinks and unfortunately that starts from the minute a new recruit walks in the door in Templemore. It's like a summer camp down there.

Having worked with both the AGS and the Defence Forces, the army are a much more professional and well run organisation. Probably an example setter for any of our state entities. They do have issues in relation to pay for lower ranks etc. but alot of these issues are political and outside of their hands.

What's interesting is that the Defence Forces have had a lot of retirements at Senior Level over the past couple of years, some of whom would be very good candidates for AGS and have proper executive management experience including overseas.

How long did you spend in Templemore yourself?

djPSB

Captain Obvious wrote: »

How long did you spend in Templemore yourself?

0 months. But the Snapchats from the lads do keep us up to date of the going ons. A lot of hangman being played.

Captain Obvious

djPSB wrote: »

0 months. But the Snapchats from the lads do keep us up to date of the going ons. A lot of hangman being played.

How much time did you spend in the army then?

kevthegaff

Listening to former garda ombudsman Conor Brady on Pat kenny this morning. "If it was an airline it would be closed down".

Captain Obvious

kevthegaff wrote: »

Listening to former garda ombudsman Conor Brady on Pat kenny this morning. "If it was an airline it would be closed down".

If it was a private airline it would also have the goal of making money and would have no moral obligation to the public. There's a reason you can't really compare private companies to emergency services.

mattser

kevthegaff wrote: »

Listening to former garda ombudsman Conor Brady on Pat kenny this morning. "If it was an airline it would be closed down".

Wouldn't pay much attention to him or Kneestalk

mattser

I see she's landed a top job from the U.S. Fair play to her. Irish media and whingers must be gutted that there's nobody here to blame.

recedite

Top Job??
It seems to be a position created specially for her, in an American club for ex police chiefs. Previously they don't seem to have had any staff outside the USA, despite calling themselves the "international" association of chiefs of police.

The International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) is a not for profit organisation based in the United States ...
The Director of Strategic Partnerships for Europe is a newly created position at the IACP, and an instrumental step by the association to further expand its global reach and representation. For the first time in IACP’s history, a staff member will be based outside of the United States...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/former-garda-commissioner-noirin-osullivan-joins-nonprofit-policing-advocacy-group-811573.html

Ah well, at least some benefit has come from all the contacts she made and the time she spent on junkets to the USA, at the expense of the Irish taxpayer, while crises were festering at home in Ireland.

According to their website, the IACP gets its staff funding from "grants" although its not clear who provides these grants.
But if anyone wants to donate, they can do so here.

McMurphy

Surprised no comments on this one yet.

It is believed another 400,000 false breathalyser records were put on the force's database on top of the near 1.5 million identified in an internal audit.

Wow.

Muahahaha

No one is commenting because scandals coming out of the Gardai just aren't suprising anymore, it's the norm

McMurphy

Muahahaha wrote: »

No one is commenting because scandals coming out of the Gardai just aren't suprising anymore, it's the norm

Close to two million state police force falsification breath tests is something you would expect from somewhere like Uganda or Pakistan.

This, coupled with the shenanigans that went on with McCabe, and later the Jobstown trial makes me wonder what state our esteemed police force is actually in.

It's been clear for a number of years now that some kind of outsider civilian type conduit needs to be introduced to the senior echelons, as quite clearly

The Policing Authority says it cannot reassure the public that issues with false breath tests and fixed charged notices will not happen again

unfit for purpose as is.

Odhinn

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Close to two million state police force falsification breath tests is something you would expect from somewhere like Uganda or Pakistan.

This, coupled with the shenanigans that went on with McCabe, and later the Jobstown trial makes me wonder what state our esteemed police force is actually in.

It's been clear for a number of years now that some kind of outsider civilian type conduit needs to be introduced to the senior echelons, as quite clearly unfit for purpose as is.

Given the treatment given to one Garda McCabe, it's hardly suprising that it reached the levels it did. I doubt very much we've heard the end of the exploits of Martin Callinan either.

Captain Obvious

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Close to two million state police force falsification breath tests is something you would expect from somewhere like Uganda or Pakistan.

This, coupled with the shenanigans that went on with McCabe, and later the Jobstown trial makes me wonder what state our esteemed police force is actually in.

It's been clear for a number of years now that some kind of outsider civilian type conduit needs to be introduced to the senior echelons, as quite clearly unfit for purpose as is.

Yeah, I'm sure the people of Uganda and Pakistan are terrorised by the thoughts of false police statistics. Never mind that police there might actually rob you and shoot you, imagine they might also lie about breathalysing you too.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Yeah, I'm sure the people of Uganda and Pakistan are terrorised by the thoughts of false police statistics. Never mind that police there might actually rob you and shoot you, imagine they might also lie about breathalysing you too.

It was a far stretched exaggeration cap'n. Not unlike the breath test data provided by our esteemed gardai come to think of it.

But you concentrate on the analogy sure.

Billgirlylegs

Rick Shaw wrote: »

It was a far stretched exaggeration cap'n. Not unlike the breath test data provided by our esteemed gardai come to think of it.

But you concentrate on the analogy sure.

It is ironic that they picked "Breath Testing Figures " to falsify.

Going on the general standard of behaviour of Road Traffic users (motor and cycle), if the Gardaí take a bit of interest in imposing law and order on the roads, their 2 million summonses will easily clock up in weeks.
Tuesday (train strike ) morning activiites in Dublin City Centre were even more jaw dropping than normal.
Not a sniff of Garda Presence to aid/control traffic.
Planks on bikes weaving in and out of lanes, passing left and right, footpaths and one way streets were all fair game.
Funny enough, three Garda vehicles in full blue light glory were heading outbound at speed along Amiens Street on Wednesday morning.
Some visiting dignitary or underworld figure needed protecting, no doubt.

Captain Obvious

Rick Shaw wrote: »

It was a far stretched exaggeration cap'n. Not unlike the breath test data provided by our esteemed gardai come to think of it.

But you concentrate on the analogy sure.

And you focus on exaggerating.

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

It is ironic that they picked "Breath Testing Figures " to falsify.

Going on the general standard of behaviour of Road Traffic users (motor and cycle), if the Gardaí take a bit of interest in imposing law and order on the roads, their 2 million summonses will easily clock up in weeks.
Tuesday (train strike ) morning activiites in Dublin City Centre were even more jaw dropping than normal.
Not a sniff of Garda Presence to aid/control traffic.
Planks on bikes weaving in and out of lanes, passing left and right, footpaths and one way streets were all fair game.
Funny enough, three Garda vehicles in full blue light glory were heading outbound at speed along Amiens Street on Wednesday morning.
Some visiting dignitary or underworld figure needed protecting, no doubt.

I don't think breath testing was "picked". It's just a symptom of a bigger problem. Weren't crime stats also lower than they should have been due to incidents being classified as non-crime or less serious crime. Haven't manpower figures been stated as being higher than in reality?

It's not really hard to understand really. Upper management is selected by politicians. They are under pressure to get good numbers to go any higher. They put pressure on management to get better results so management come up with strategies that have great optics but aren't really that feasible or useful. More pressure is put on the lower levels to implement these new strategies alongside their existing workload, which has already been increased due to falling manpower. It's a recipe for disaster too. It's not something that's unique to AGS or even the public sector.

I'm reminded of the story of a phone company who was under pressure to reduce the number of public phones that were not working on their network. Their solution was to remove public phones from low income areas as they were more likely to be vandalised. They got the results they were asked for but left the people most in need of their service with less of it.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

And you focus on exaggerating.



I don't think breath testing was "picked". It's just a symptom of a bigger problem. Weren't crime stats also lower than they should have been due to incidents being classified as non-crime or less serious crime. Haven't manpower figures been stated as being higher than in reality?

It's not really hard to understand really. Upper management is selected by politicians. They are under pressure to get good numbers to go any higher. They put pressure on management to get better results so management come up with strategies that have great optics but aren't really that feasible or useful. More pressure is put on the lower levels to implement these new strategies alongside their existing workload, which has already been increased due to falling manpower. It's a recipe for disaster too. It's not something that's unique to AGS or even the public sector.

I'm reminded of the story of a phone company who was under pressure to reduce the number of public phones that were not working on their network. Their solution was to remove public phones from low income areas as they were more likely to be vandalised. They got the results they were asked for but left the people most in need of their service with less of it.

...yet ironically politicians have generally "let them get on with it" over the years, and turned a blind eye to excesses.

James Brown

Odhinn wrote: »

...yet ironically politicians have generally "let them get on with it" over the years, and turned a blind eye to excesses.

It's the land of faeries and rainbows. Things go wrong, frauds are carried out, but nobody gets held to account, because although we know bad things happened, nobody is guilty of anything. Magic.

They should save us all money and leave O'Sullivan be. Absolutely no justice will come of anything, we should accept that and save the tax payer funding another dog and pony show that only serves to help give the pretense of accountability. Maybe then we'd face the reality of how the state functions and look to fixing it.

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's the land of faeries and rainbows. Things go wrong, frauds are carried out, but nobody gets held to account, because although we know bad things happened, nobody is guilty of anything. Magic.

They should save us all money and leave O'Sullivan be. Absolutely no justice will come of anything, we should accept that and save the tax payer funding another dog and pony show that only serves to help give the pretense of accountability. Maybe then we'd face the reality of how the state functions and look to fixing it.

That's certainly a view. The truth is that she was a protege of Callinan, and really he's where the focus should be.

James Brown

Odhinn wrote: »

That's certainly a view. The truth is that she was a protege of Callinan, and really he's where the focus should be.

Maybe if we dispense with the stage show, it will become clear that many things need adjusting. We seem to go from one thing to another and all that comes of it is, yeah the tax payer took it on the chin, yeah it's not great, but it wasn't illegal and sure that's they way the system is set up. From AIB, to Noonan/Cerberus to the Garda Commissioner.
One would have thought giving false readings/reports to a Garda, fellow or not, was a crime of some sort, let alone a conscious effort to peddle false reports. It's embarrassing for the country at this stage. It's all very Fianna Fail to have public figures wink and give us the two fingers as they go about their business.

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Maybe if we dispense with the stage show, it will become clear that many things need adjusting. We seem to go from one thing to another and all that comes of it is, yeah the tax payer took it on the chin, yeah it's not great, but it wasn't illegal and sure that's they way the system is set up. From AIB, to Noonan/Cerberus to the Garda Commissioner.
One would have thought giving false readings/reports to a Garda, fellow or not, was a crime of some sort, let alone a conscious effort to peddle false reports. It's embarrassing for the country at this stage. It's all very Fianna Fail to have public figures wink and give us the two fingers as they go about their business.

I'd imagine that as regards Martin Callinan, if not the Gardai in general, far far worse is yet to emerge, particularily with regard to the Garda system of "files". The next two to three years should be interesting.