Doping in GAA - Jim Gavin not happy with post match drug testing

ThisRegard

@Jayop
Hang on, Gavin still went on a rant about it despite them being allowed to watch it, so what's his complaint? And he still said the testing doesn't need to be done until later in the week.

Jayop

Chivito550 wrote: »

Incredible comments from Jim Gavin. So the GAA is somehow exempt to the anti-doping procedures set down by WADA, implemented by the Irish Sports Council? Athletes in track and field in Ireland have to give samples after a race. They don't complain. They just get on with it. And guess what, almost all of them are amateurs as well. Anti-doping is there to protect the integrity of top level sport, whether that is amateur or professional. Could you imagine the uproar if our Olympians said they didn't want to give a drug sample immediately after their race/event, but would rather give it a few days later or earlier! Simple fact of the matter is, if you have nothing to hide, you shut up and just get on with it. Silly silly shameful comments by Jim Gavin. If the GAA doesn't want to follow the anti-doping procedures that other sports in Ireland follow then they can give back that Irish Sports Council funding, as I believe following the anti-doping procedures is a requirement of funding.

lol what a load of clap trap when the head of the ISC said Gavin was right.

Jayop

ThisRegard wrote: »

@Jayop
Hang on, Gavin still went on a rant about it despite them being allowed to watch it, so what's his complaint? And he still said the testing doesn't need to be done until later in the week.

Read my post again. I make it clear.

marienbad

Jayop wrote: »

So, that means less than nothing. In fact it reenforces what Gavin was saying and makes a bigger fool out of the OP.

That the message didn't get to the players/Gavin or the testers didn't bother to tell them is irrelevant. The fact is the OP choose to attack Jim Gavin for suggesting that the testing could have waited until after the event. Yourself and many others rowed in behind that statement, pretty much called myself and others idiots for not knowing how important it was to test immediately after the game and how outrageous it was that Gavin would suggest such a thing. Then we discover that the ISC's head of anti-doping agrees that the players should have been allowed to watch the thing.

Be it down to stringent roles or a miscommunication it doesn't change the fact that the OP was miles out of line and there are a few people in this thread with egg on their faces.

Do you know what is involved in testing ? Sometimes immediately after the game could be hours later , it is not that easy to give a sample on demand .

The only way the players could have watched the show was if they were supervised at all times until a sample was provided .

If such arrangements were made and the manager knew that then his comments are even more peculiar .

ThisRegard

Jayop wrote: »

Read my post again. I make it clear.

You didn't really. But you're deadset on the idea that it's not possible for GAA players to even contemplate taking PEDs.

Bonniedog

Length of time steroids used by physical team players stay in system:

Deca-durabolin 17 to 18 months, Equipoise 4 to 5 months, Trenbolone acetate 4 to 5 months, Testosterone cytopinate, enthanate, sustanon 3 months, Anadrol 2 months, Winstrol (injectable) 2 months, Proviron 5-6 weeks, Dianabol 5-6 weeks, Parabolan 4-5 weeks, Primobolan 4-5 weeks, Anavar 3 weeks, Winstrol (oral) 3 weeks, Testosterone Propinate 3 weeks, Andriol 1 week, Clenbuteral 4-5 days, Testosterone suspension 1-3 days.


At the more serious end of actual match day use of 'greenie' type, the detection period is between one and four days.

jcon1913

Bonniedog wrote: »

Do what things properly?

There is no other sport in the country that would be capable of organising an event of the scale of yesterday. Perhaps that is what is really bothering you?

Get over yourself. No-one is having a go at the GAA. every sport has to have in-competition testing. Its not about whether a sports body can organise an event.

marienbad

Bonniedog wrote: »

Length of time steroids used by physical team players stay in system:

Deca-durabolin 17 to 18 months, Equipoise 4 to 5 months, Trenbolone acetate 4 to 5 months, Testosterone cytopinate, enthanate, sustanon 3 months, Anadrol 2 months, Winstrol (injectable) 2 months, Proviron 5-6 weeks, Dianabol 5-6 weeks, Parabolan 4-5 weeks, Primobolan 4-5 weeks, Anavar 3 weeks, Winstrol (oral) 3 weeks, Testosterone Propinate 3 weeks, Andriol 1 week, Clenbuteral 4-5 days, Testosterone suspension 1-3 days.


At the more serious end of actual match day use of 'greenie' type, the detection period is between one and four days.

The takers are always ahead of the testers , so the quicker the test after the event the better . Even then it may not be enough to catch the latest advances

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3141796/Athlete-Lauryn-Williams-reveals-advised-cheat-21st-century-style-microdosing-seen-golden-ticket-dopers-wanting-trick-testers.html


Why do you thing WADA are so strict about it ? They know it is a huge imposition but that is the price we must pay .

Bonniedog

jcon1913 wrote: »

Get over yourself. No-one is having a go at the GAA. every sport has to have in-competition testing. Its not about whether a sports body can organise an event.

Oh, I think they are!

I could report you for hurting my feelings of course

Dyr

ThisRegard wrote: »

@Jayop
Hang on, Gavin still went on a rant about it despite them being allowed to watch it, so what's his complaint? And he still said the testing doesn't need to be done until later in the week.

What the esteemed head of the anti doping unit said was:

"So I’m not sure in terms of the messaging around that or what arose but that was something agreed in advance."

i.e. "I'm covering my arse because what was agreed beforehand and what was actually insisted on after the match on were two different things"

Gavin didnt just get into his head to get bolshy on behalf of four lads on a passing whim.

Funny to see the lads who insisted Gavin was lacking in his understanding unlike the august body of testers now trying to qualify their statements

jcon1913

Jayop wrote: »

Wonderful. Yet another post telling me how little I know whilst not correcting a single thing I said. Is there any single reason that the testing couldn't be done either in the morning of the game or the following morning?

Yes the reason you have to be tested on the day of the event is that 24 hours later a performance enhancing drug will have been peed away.

Like say if you have a few pints on Saturday might stop drinking at 12 midnight and the guards take a blood sample from you at 12 midnight on Sumday night. The pints will have worn off and youll pass the test. But the effect of the alcohol was influencing your system on Saturday night.

So athletes have to be tested at the event.

marienbad

Bambi wrote: »

What the esteemed head of the anti doping unit said was:

"So I’m not sure in terms of the messaging around that or what arose but that was something agreed in advance."

i.e. "I'm covering my arse because what was agreed beforehand and what was actually insisted on after the match on were two different things"

Gavin didnt just get into his head to get bolshy on behalf of four lads on a passing whim.

Funny to see the lads who insisted Gavin was lacking in his understanding unlike the august body of testers now trying to qualify their statements

You have know way of knowing that , maybe supervision arrangements had been made and Gavin wasn't made aware , who knows .

Whatever happened with the scourge of drugs in sport his comments to put it mildly weren't helpful.

jcon1913

Bonniedog wrote: »

Oh, I think they are!

I could report you for hurting my feelings of course

Go right ahead. Id have to tell you i have a hurty knee and it may have clouded my judgement.

STB.

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

With all due respect I think you display a lot of ignorance and division of sport.

Can I also ask you what 15 years of drug testing was in place for you to come out with this earlier comment?:

In 15 years, you can count on two fingers the numbers who have turned up positive tests which were as a result of using a Ventolin inhaler

Ignorance, no not at all. Brash insult but its my view that GAA football and hurling is unlike any recognisable competitive sport common to many countries like boxing, athlethics and cycling etc. Its a niche sport played on one island and culminates in 4 divisions at county level and a football and hurling championship, as well as that enjoyed by many at various club levels. For this very reason, the fact that GAA a no profit organisation, exclusively amateur with no financial incentive, it is recognised by the Sports Council as low risk for doping. Yet the scale of testing is extremely high, especially when compared with rugby, a sport with a professional outlet, internationally played.

Your second question which you asked despite my perceived ignorance of other sports about the 15 years.

Dope testing of inter county players began in 2001. In that time there have been 2 positive tests in 15 years.

2008 Kerry Footballer Aidan O'Mahony for salbutamol the active ingredient in Ventolin inhalers which he used for asthma.

2015 Monaghan Footballer Thomas Connolly who tested positive for the very much banned stanozolol, subsequently banned from the sport for 2 years due to the non intentional circumstances.

2 "positive" tests in 15 years....

Now given the status of the other sports and their propensity for doping and the low risk GAA is tagged by the Sports Council, lets look at the level of testing.



The GAA is now part of the Sport Ireland's anti-doping programme whereby blood is also tested. The testing regime gives recognition to the players amateur status and the fact that the vast majority spend their time away from the field in either full-time employment or education.

Despite this GAA has the highest in-competition testing which is remarkable given the games status.

The timing of tests is where this discussion is a bone of contention for Jim Gavin (which the thread title neglected to mention and the reason I posted in the first instance). What is really a bone of contention is the blood testing regime that the GAA signed the players up to, many of which regard it as invasive.

The GAA players themselves have long put their own views across so if you are interested in what their view is you could read.

Bernard Brogan, Dublin footballer

Tommy Walsh, Kerry footballer

Brendan Maher, Tipperary Hurler

[url=http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/drug-testing-gaa-players-
waste-of-money-246937.html]Tadhg Crowley, Kilkenny Hurling doctor[/url]

Tomas Mulcahy, former Cork Hurler

Pat Spillane, former Kerry footballer and GAA pundit

Jackie Tyrell, Kilkenny Hurler and others

ProudDUB

marienbad wrote: »

You have know way of knowing that , maybe supervision arrangements had been made and Gavin wasn't made aware , who knows .

Whatever happened with the scourge of drugs in sport his comments to put it mildly weren't helpful.

Well whether Gavin was aware or not, is irrelevant. What matters is what happened to the players. They missed the show. End of story.

The Sports Council now say they put arrangements in place for the players to attend the show and be tested later. Then they say that that they don't know what happened to the "messaging" of those arrangements. That indicates that the testers didn't know about the arrangements, or they did and decided to ignore them, or over ride them. Which ever one it is, it is clearly a cock up on their part.

Jayop

ThisRegard wrote: »

You didn't really. But you're deadset on the idea that it's not possible for GAA players to even contemplate taking PEDs.

That's an outright lie. No where did I suggest that.

corny

jcon1913 wrote: »

Get over yourself. No-one is having a go at the GAA.

The thread was started with a very obvious attack on the GAA. The OP has a chip on his shoulder when it comes to the sport. This was his contribution in this forum under a different name Are GAA Players overrated? Long time reader of the Athletics forum and i'm nearly sure he's bitched about the ISC funding of the GAA too.

He's got people bothered by an innocuous comment. That was his intention all along.

ThisRegard

Bambi wrote: »

Funny to see the lads who insisted Gavin was lacking in his understanding unlike the august body of testers now trying to qualify their statements

I'm not one of those, my points have been on the general attitude to doping, ie GAA players would never contemplate such a thing, and therefore we shouldn't do what every other sport needs to do.

Jayop

ThisRegard wrote: »

I'm not one of those, my points have been on the general attitude to doping, ie GAA players would never contemplate such a thing, and therefore we shouldn't do what every other sport needs to do.

Like when you specifically lied saying I had said that when I did no such thing, but a bit like when you were proved wrong about Gavin you still haven't withdrawn the comments.

ThisRegard

Is your cross home made?

Jayop

ThisRegard wrote: »

Is your cross home made?

You find it impossible to admit being wrong? Keep going with snide remarks all you like, the athletic boys in this thread have shown that's really all you're good for.

downthemiddle

Jayop wrote: »

lol what a load of clap trap when the head of the ISC said Gavin was right.

Humour me, in what way does this statement by Una May suggest Jim Gavin was right?




"The four players drug-tested after Sunday’s Division 1 final were granted permission by testers to watch the Laochra show that followed the game.Dr Una May, director of the Irish Sports Council anti-doping unit, said there had been measures taken to ensure those called on to give urine samples could choose to delay going through the procedure to take in the 1916 commemoration"

downthemiddle

Bambi wrote: »

What the esteemed head of the anti doping unit said was:

"So I’m not sure in terms of the messaging around that or what arose but that was something agreed in advance."

i.e. "I'm covering my arse because what was agreed beforehand and what was actually insisted on after the match on were two different things"

Gavin didnt just get into his head to get bolshy on behalf of four lads on a passing whim.

Funny to see the lads who insisted Gavin was lacking in his understanding unlike the august body of testers now trying to qualify their statements

What she actually said


"The four players drug-tested after Sunday’s Division 1 final were granted permission by testers to watch the Laochra show that followed the game.Dr Una May, director of the Irish Sports Council anti-doping unit, said there had been measures taken to ensure those called on to give urine samples could choose to delay going through the procedure to take in the 1916 commemoration"

Chivito550

STB. wrote: »

Ignorance, no not at all. Brash insult but its my view that GAA football and hurling is unlike any recognisable competitive sport common to many countries like boxing, athlethics and cycling etc. Its a niche sport played on one island and culminates in 4 divisions at county level and a football and hurling championship, as well as that enjoyed by many at various club levels. For this very reason, the fact that GAA a no profit organisation, exclusively amateur with no financial incentive, it is recognised by the Sports Council as low risk for doping. Yet the scale of testing is extremely high, especially when compared with rugby, a sport with a professional outlet, internationally played.

Your second question which you asked despite my perceived ignorance of other sports about the 15 years.

Dope testing of inter county players began in 2001. In that time there have been 2 positive tests in 15 years.

2008 Kerry Footballer Aidan O'Mahony for salbutamol the active ingredient in Ventolin inhalers which he used for asthma.

2015 Monaghan Footballer Thomas Connolly who tested positive for the very much banned stanozolol, subsequently banned from the sport for 2 years due to the non intentional circumstances.

2 "positive" tests in 15 years....

Now given the status of the other sports and their propensity for doping and the low risk GAA is tagged by the Sports Council, lets look at the level of testing.



The GAA is now part of the Sport Ireland's anti-doping programme whereby blood is also tested. The testing regime gives recognition to the players amateur status and the fact that the vast majority spend their time away from the field in either full-time employment or education.

Despite this GAA has the highest in-competition testing which is remarkable given the games status.

The timing of tests is where this discussion is a bone of contention for Jim Gavin (which the thread title neglected to mention and the reason I posted in the first instance). What is really a bone of contention is the blood testing regime that the GAA signed the players up to, many of which regard it as invasive.

The GAA players themselves have long put their own views across so if you are interested in what their view is you could read.

Bernard Brogan, Dublin footballer

Tommy Walsh, Kerry footballer

Brendan Maher, Tipperary Hurler

[url=http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/drug-testing-gaa-players-
waste-of-money-246937.html]Tadhg Crowley, Kilkenny Hurling doctor[/url]

Tomas Mulcahy, former Cork Hurler

Pat Spillane, former Kerry footballer and GAA pundit

Jackie Tyrell, Kilkenny Hurler and others

Irish athletics has had to endure far more rigorous testing down the years than GAA. Blood testing, biological passport etc. Irish athletics has had just 5 people test positive in that time:

Cathal Lombard
Geraldine Hendricken
Martin Fagan
Lithuanian Irish based shot putter (Tomas Rauktys)
Steven Colvert

If the GAA had the same levels of rigour in its testing (Rob Heffernan gets tested around 15 times per year out of competition, randomly gets woken up at 6am for a test) then I am certain there would be more than 2.

Your graph above shows how much more out of competition and blood testing there is in Irish athletics than in GAA. Yeh the in competition is less but that's because our top athletes race overseas mainly and so get tested over there. When competing at home, they get tested.

I don't believe doping is endemic in GAA, but it also isn't endemic in Irish athletics.

Jayop

downthemiddle wrote: »

Humour me, in what way does this statement by Una May suggest Jim Gavin was right?




"The four players drug-tested after Sunday’s Division 1 final were granted permission by testers to watch the Laochra show that followed the game.Dr Una May, director of the Irish Sports Council anti-doping unit, said there had been measures taken to ensure those called on to give urine samples could choose to delay going through the procedure to take in the 1916 commemoration"

When he said they should have been able to watch the show (his main complaint) she agreed. She then fudged something about miscommunication or a message not getting back to through. The core point was the same and it was one you and others called Gavin ignorant for making.

ThisRegard

Jayop wrote: »

You find it impossible to admit being wrong? Keep going with snide remarks all you like, the athletic boys in this thread have shown that's really all you're good for.

Find me one post in this thread in which I upset you over something I said about Gavin.

And you want me to list all the games I've been to in Croke Park, how many Dublin jerseys I own and how old I was when I trialed for a Dublin county team? Do you live in a world where it's only possible to like one sport?

Jayop

ThisRegard wrote: »

Find me one post in this thread in which I upset you over something I said about Gavin.

And you want me to list all the games I've been to in Croke Park, how many Dublin jerseys I own and how old I was when I trialed for a Dublin county team?

I'll read all your posts again later but how about you withdraw your lie about me?

Chivito550

corny wrote: »

The thread was started with a very obvious attack on the GAA. The OP has a chip on his shoulder when it comes to the sport. This was his contribution in this forum under a different name Are GAA Players overrated? Long time reader of the Athletics forum and i'm nearly sure he's bitched about the ISC funding of the GAA too.

He's got people bothered by an innocuous comment. That was his intention all along.

You do not know anything about me. I am a member of a Dublin GAA club. I am also a member of an athletics club.

Very mature bringing up a 6 year old thread. Strange that people can't seem to discuss and debate a topic without taking personal swipes.

You do not know me. I don't need to prove to you what my connection to GAA is.

Stoner

ThisRegard wrote:

You didn't really. But you're deadset on the idea that it's not possible for GAA players to even contemplate taking PEDs.

Where did he say that ?

downthemiddle

ProudDUB wrote: »

Well whether Gavin was aware or not, is irrelevant. What matters is what happened to the players. They missed the show. End of story.

The Sports Council now say they put arrangements in place for the players to attend the show and be tested later. Then they say that that they don't know what happened to the "messaging" of those arrangements. That indicates that the testers didn't know about the arrangements, or they did and decided to ignore them, or over ride them. Which ever one it is, it is clearly a cock up on their part.

This post is extremely insulting to the professional manner in which the testers go about their business. They have very clear guidelines and procedures and follow them strictly otherwise the testing is invalid. The testers often have to wait considerable lengths of time for the athletes to rehydrate before being able to give a sample. Laochra was over within an hour of the game ending.
The only person who has made a public statement who didn't understand the procedures was Jim Gavin. He is not infallible and the circling of the wagons on this thread is bizarre. People should be delighted their sport is being kept clean.