Doping in GAA - Jim Gavin not happy with post match drug testing

ahnowbrowncow

STB. wrote: »

GAA is an amateur sport.

There is no financial incentive to dope.

These players give up there time and skill for the love of the game and the pride in the jersey. Many of them cant walk in their mid to late 30's through damage done to knees etc from their dedication for their County.

And Finally, change the title, its a deliberate sensational tabloid banner headline that misrepresents what Jim Gavin actually said.
It was the timing that annoyed him. There was a Laochra show on after the "show" that the players put on.

A bit of perspective please.

How naive are you? There's lots of money at stake in these matches, do you think AIG would be sponsoring the Dubs if they were bottom of division 4?

Do you think Jim Gavin is doing this for free and do you think he'd be allowed continue as manager if he kept losing?

marienbad

STB. wrote: »

GAA is not an international sport.

It is mainly limited to this island and played on a non paid basis as a heritage sport.

There is no international competition.

There is no European or World body governing it, like with other sports.

But dope testing does exist. In terms of testing GAA is the third most tested sport in Ireland. Why ? Because the GAA (the organisation) have entered into agreements with the Irish Sports Council to do so as the organisation receives grants, not the players.

In 15 years, you can count on two fingers the numbers who have turned up positive tests which were as a result of using a Ventolin inhaler.

How is any of the above relevant to my question ?

Do you believe that somehow the quality of the athlete involved in GAA is somehow different to that involved in every other sport , both amateur and professional ?

megadodge

downthemiddle wrote: »

Let's try this one more time


“What you’re doing is taking a small amount to give you a little bit extra for the event, and then hopefully it will go through your body so that by the time you finish the event it won’t come out in your urine or your blood. That’s what they hope,”


Wouldn't be much point in testing the morning after now would there?

From that quote it looks like there wouldn't be much point testing them straight afterwards either as "..by the time you finish the event it won’t come out in your urine or your blood.."?

You also conveniently ignore the last few sentences in that article you're quoting from

Conte noted that he does not understand the IOC’s obsession with testing during the Games, which he finds unnecessary. More than 6,400 doping tests are set to be done in London 2012.

“When you build your explosive strength and speed and power base is October-November-December,” he said.

In PED cases, by the time the events come around the bulk of any serious doping has been done months before. That's when they need to test. I personally find it rather too coincidental that a small island like Jamaica happens to be the leading power in world sprinting for the last decade, but is the only top country that doesn't have out-of-season testing.

Having said all that, I don't have an issue with drug testing in general in the GAA. I certainly do believe there are players who would use PEDs especially since every single county team now has a gym regime for 16 year olds upwards. When bulking up in gyms it's only natural that certain temptations will be put in some peoples way and some will avail.

STB.

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

How naive are you? There's lots of money at stake in these matches, do you think AIG would be sponsoring the Dubs if they were bottom of division 4?

Do you think Jim Gavin is doing this for free and do you think he'd be allowed continue as manager if he kept losing?

Money for whom.

marienbad wrote: »

How is any of the above relevant to my question ?

Do you believe that somehow the quality of the athlete involved in GAA is somehow different to that involved in every other sport , both amateur and professional ?

Your question was why should it be any different for GAA. If you cannot understand english I cannot help you.

Other sports that are tested are world competitive "sports" under world governing bodies, where cheating at amateur and most certainly professional would be considered high risk due to their monetary or country cross competitive status.

ArielAtom

Well, who'd have thought it!!! The most majority of posts looking for the head of Jim Gavin on a plate are 1: Athletes 2: Culchies posting predominantly in another GAA thread or 3: jobsworths!!!!

Athletics is and always has been along with cycling the dirtiest sports in the world. GAA players need to be tested, just not after the final whistle, they will be caught if cheating the next day FFS.

Grow up FFS and get a life, if it was any other county manager it would be a non event

corny

I think the importaant point is you can disagree with Gavin without calling him a cheat or attacking the GAA. He gave an opinion, probably not a very informed one, about the timing of tests. Big deal.

I mean the OP basically insinuated Gavin and Brogan have something to hide. That's scandalous and it would get him banned on a Cycling/ART thread btw. (trust me i've been there;))

Corholio

Silly from Gavin. He's well aware that testing takes part, not having them just because it's a big game is a stupid excuse. He may be just expressing his opinion, but it's an opinion about rules that extremely clearly laid out that these tests happen. If you are complaining about this then it smacks of lack of professionalism and respect for the sport to be honest.

corny

Corholio wrote: »

Silly from Gavin. He's well aware that testing takes part, not having them just because it's a big game is a stupid excuse. He may be just expressing his opinion, but it's an opinion about rules that extremely clearly laid out that these tests happen. If you are complaining about this then it smacks of lack of professionalism and respect for the sport to be honest.

Putting aside the fact that he's not a professional...how did you draw that line? How does not agreeing with rules set out by WADA show a lack of respect for the GAA?

Realt Dearg Sec

Between the athletics cranks using this as a stalking horse to attack the gaa for having the temerity to be more popular than their "who's the fastest" competitions, and the willfully naive "sure our lads are just a few local lads having the craic of a Sunday" GAA wagon circling types, it's really hard to say who is more annoying and self serving on this thread.

Clearly the GAA should be subject to rigourous testing in line with international best practice for amateur sports.

Clearly athletics isn't popular because it's desperately boring watching people exercise, and its supporters need to accept the fact that the gaa is more popular because it's more spectacular to watch and more embedded in the fabric of life here, not because of some conspiracy by the forces of old and evil in Ireland. So stop trying to find pretexts to call for withdrawals of funding and insinuating gaa players aren't serious athletes.

Prickly Pete

Can a player be forced to give a sample or will they be suspended if they don't.

These players have real lives so I can understand the frustration of waiting around for ages to give a sample and potentially waste precious free time.

Prickly Pete

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

How naive are you? There's lots of money at stake in these matches, do you think AIG would be sponsoring the Dubs if they were bottom of division 4?

Do you think Jim Gavin is doing this for free and do you think he'd be allowed continue as manager if he kept losing?

Why would a player who is getting no money cheat?

The people who have nothing to gain financially are the only ones who could cheat and make a difference.

marienbad

STB. wrote: »

Money for whom.



Your question was why should it be any different for GAA. If you cannot understand english I cannot help you.

Other sports that are tested are world competitive "sports" under world governing bodies, where cheating at amateur and most certainly professional would be considered high risk due to their monetary or country cross competitive status.

My question still stands , and my English comprehension is just fine thank you , but I am beginning to wonder if yours is ?

Again to justify your position you give a load of gumpf that is simply irrelevant . Is Australian Rules also to be treated as an exception on the basis that it is non international ?

Are Rowing ,Swimming ,Weightlifting etc etc to be treated differently because they are amateur ? And what makes you think monetary or cross competitive status are more high risk .

marienbad

Jayop wrote: »

See, if you'd just discuss the thing without the condescending tone or the obvious chip on your shoulder we'd get somewhere.

Now, in order to try something "one more time" you'll have had to try it before and since that's the first time someone has given any explanation as to why they need to do post match tests then I don't think "one more time" was really warranted now, do you?

So test them before the game, test them at fecking half time, whatever.

Leaving aside for a minute why GAA should be treated any differently there are common sense reasons why testing is as it is .-

If the testing was before or at halftime a variation of the same objection would be raised - the final team talk has just been interrupted by drug testers , players losing concentration focus etc . The same could be said of half time testing .

Secondly and more importantly if testing is done before or at half time , as there is a limit to the number tested than any others are free to micro dose without any risk of being caught .

No the best and proven method is random selection immediately after the event

elefant

Prickly Pete wrote: »

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

How naive are you? There's lots of money at stake in these matches, do you think AIG would be sponsoring the Dubs if they were bottom of division 4?

Do you think Jim Gavin is doing this for free and do you think he'd be allowed continue as manager if he kept losing?

Why would a player who is getting no money cheat?

The people who have nothing to gain financially are the only ones who could cheat and make a difference.

I can't believe GAA people in this thread are even asking this question.

I'd bet there are hundreds of junior club footballers all over the country who would take something to help them win a championship.

Why are players putting in hours of training every week if they don't make any money from it? The game is about winning.

hardCopy

STB. wrote: »

Ah I am guessing you actually play or have played the game to throw around the word naive.

You better explain to me why some amateur gaa player would want to dope.



Are you another who has never played the game yet claims to understand it ?

These people have days jobs. They take nothing from the game. The game takes everything from them. Its not an international competitive sport that requires drug testing like athletics or cycling or boxing.

Amateurs dope for the same reasons as professionals, to win.

When you've gone to extremes to get every other aspect of your diet, exercise, supplements and rest just right and still can't win, dope is just another way to level up. It's extra tempting if you believe the opposition are on it too.

Testing the next day is pointless, micro doses of drugs can pass through the body in under 24 hours.

Prickly Pete

elefant wrote: »

I can't believe GAA people in this thread are even asking this question.

I'd bet there are hundreds of junior club footballers all over the country who would take something to help them win a championship.

Why are players putting in hours of training every week if they don't make any money from it? The game is about winning.

What are GAA people?The GAA is not an ethnicity.

I'm asking it because the post above mine specifically mentioned financial reasons for cheating and where there was money involved drug taking to help performance woul dhappen.

I'm well aware that some players will cheat in order to help them play better but the poster above me suggestion that it was potentially to do with money has no relevance regarding GAA players.

robbiezero

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

How naive are you? There's lots of money at stake in these matches, do you think AIG would be sponsoring the Dubs if they were bottom of division 4?

Do you think Jim Gavin is doing this for free and do you think he'd be allowed continue as manager if he kept losing?

Yes, I think he is. Why do you think he isn't?

ThisRegard

STB. wrote: »

Ah I am guessing you actually play or have played the game to throw around the word naive.

You better explain to me why some amateur gaa player would want to dope.

Not for a long time. But what I do have decades of experience of is people. You get cheats in all walks of life, sport or business. To think that there's none in the ranks of GAA is utterly bizarre.

Prickly Pete wrote: »

Why would a player who is getting no money cheat?

The people who have nothing to gain financially are the only ones who could cheat and make a difference.

I can't believe people still ask these questions, even my 6 year old daughter knows why people cheat in games.

elefant

Prickly Pete wrote: »

What are GAA people?The GAA is not an ethnicity.

I'm asking it because the post above mine specifically mentioned financial reasons for cheating and where there was money involved drug taking to help performance woul dhappen.

I'm well aware that some players will cheat in order to help them play better but the poster above me suggestion that it was potentially to do with money has no relevance regarding GAA players.

People involved with GAA. Obviously.

And apologies if I took you saying 'Why would a player who is getting no money cheat?' as suggesting a GAA player wouldn't dope because they're amateur.
Perhaps I missed the nuance of what you were saying, but there have being other posters in this thread suggesting GAA players are unlikely to take PEDs because they aren't pros.

The Lost Sheep

STB. wrote: »

GAA is an amateur sport.

There is no financial incentive to dope.

These players give up there time and skill for the love of the game and the pride in the jersey. Many of them cant walk in their mid to late 30's through damage done to knees etc from their dedication for their County.

And Finally, change the title, its a deliberate sensational tabloid banner headline that misrepresents what Jim Gavin actually said.
It was the timing that annoyed him. There was a Laochra show on after the "show" that the players put on.

A bit of perspective please.

There isn't financial reasons to dope but there is winning and people will cheat simply to win. Irrespective of whether they are paid or not.

Jayop wrote: »

But unlike your insinuations to the contrary no-one is saying they don't welcome testing, just that the timing on certain occasions could take other things into account. Sorry now if we're not as well versed on the in's and out's of PED's as you athletics boys (good reason for that eh??) but I've yet to have a single person explain why they couldn't do the test just before the game or the following morning. I was insulted and given a link to the Hindu Times but I think I'd prefer something I could hang my hat on.

So before the game is better than after the game? That affects players considerably more in their prep for the game. You don't do it the following morning as the drugs could very easily be out of the players system. So what would be the point. You do the test directly after the game as any performance enhancing substances will still be recognisable in players urine or blood...

STB. wrote: »

These people don't understand the game, the types of people who play it and why they do it. GAA is unique.

The players have day jobs. They come from all walks of life both private and public sector. Some are serving gardai.

A positive dope test (for anything even being in the presence of recreational drugs) could not alone effect their ability to play in the sport but also their livelyhood as well.

Well professional athletes reputations and livelihood is significantly impacted by a positive test significantly more than any amateur athlete considering their career will be on hold if they get a ban.....

STB. wrote: »

GAA is not an international sport.

It is mainly limited to this island and played on a non paid basis as a heritage sport.

There is no international competition.

There is no European or World body governing it, like with other sports.

But dope testing does exist. In terms of testing GAA is the third most tested sport in Ireland. Why? Because the GAA (the organisation) have entered into agreements with the Irish Sports Council to do so as the organisation receives grants, not the players.

In 15 years, you can count on two fingers the numbers who have turned up positive tests which were as a result of using a Ventolin inhaler.

GAA isn't international but that doesn't mean that significant drugs testing shouldn't take place. Gaelic and hurling will be amongst the most tested sports as they have highest numbers of teams playing at an elite level that testing takes place.

ArielAtom wrote: »

Well, who'd have thought it!!! The most majority of posts looking for the head of Jim Gavin on a plate are 1: Athletes 2: Culchies posting predominantly in another GAA thread or 3: jobsworths!!!!

Athletics is and always has been along with cycling the dirtiest sports in the world. GAA players need to be tested, just not after the final whistle, they will be caught if cheating the next day FFS.

Grow up FFS and get a life, if it was any other county manager it would be a non event

If it was another county manager it wouldn't be a non event. The point of testing a player straight after a game should be clear and obvious to everyone. There's no point in waiting 12 hours plus after a game. You test a player directly after a game as they could most certainly flush any drugs out of their system in 12 hours....

jmayo

STB. wrote: »

GAA is not an international sport.

It is mainly limited to this island and played on a non paid basis as a heritage sport.

There are rewards and if you think otherwise you are either living under a rock or deluded.

Hell it goes back years as well.
Some of the ex Meath players tell a story about when Boylan took over. He told the players to look out into the car park at their cars and that if they did what he told them they would all end up driving new cars.

And I don't begrude people being rewarded seeing the amount of effort now being put in and the way people's lives are being put on hold.

But what I do hate is this sanctimonious shyte that everyone does it for the honour and the love of the game.
Yes a lot do but the guys at the top usually get something.

STB. wrote: »

There is no international competition.

There is no European or World body governing it, like with other sports.

So what.

ArielAtom wrote: »

Well, who'd have thought it!!! The most majority of posts looking for the head of Jim Gavin on a plate are 1: Athletes 2: Culchies posting predominantly in another GAA thread or 3: jobsworths!!!!

Athletics is and always has been along with cycling the dirtiest sports in the world. GAA players need to be tested, just not after the final whistle, they will be caught if cheating the next day FFS.

Grow up FFS and get a life, if it was any other county manager it would be a non event

I couldn't give a shyte that Gavin is a Dub, he was a it of an eejit to complain about it.
It is part of the rules.
He should know better and usually he is pretty smart in interviews.

And I do agree with testing after matches.

There are a fair few stories out there of for instance ex soccer players telling stories how they were given stuff pre match and then felt as if they could run through a wall.

Like with soccer there is a bury the head in the sand attitude that GAA players couldn't possibly take any drugs to help cheat.
The argument in soccer is that drugs don't improve skill and argument in GAA is that our lads are above that and shure there is no money at stake so why do it.

As someone said you will always find people willing to cheat to get what they want.
I think the number may be very very small, but I still reckon there are some.

marienbad

Bonniedog wrote: »

Ex, being the key words here. You are talking about players who used to take stimulants before games. It was rife in soccer and American sports. Lasted a lot longer in athletics and cycling.


The problem now is stuff used as part of strength and conditioning training to enhance the benefits of training.

They do turn up occasionally, as we have seen in EPL, baseball etc, but very rare and almost invariably detected during off competition training, as was the Monaghan lad suspended last year. If you are on them, then you will either not be taking them during competition or will be as detectable the next day as on the day of the competition. they don't 'flush out.'

Indeed most drug cheats have been caught in that manner not in immediate post event testing.

Finally, I detect a definite Kiernanesque excuse to attack 'the gah' because some athletics people aremanically jealous of the GAA which attracts most of the best athletes in the country, rather than participate in sports where there is not a world record or probably a national record, that is not highly suspect.

Now, fk off and get your own house in order

To be honest I don't detect any particularly GAA bias in this discussion , maybe the GAA lads are just a bit to precious .

The combination of in competion testing and out of competition testing is best practice right now and GAA should simply not be immune . There is no logic to the belief that it should .

And the notion that the manager is 'entitled to his opinion' is also flawed . He also, taking into account his position , has a responsibility towards sport .

There are plenty of opinions prominent sport people hold that they keep to themselves .\This was no different.

Birdie Num Num

Jayop wrote: »

Think what you like. I've stated a pretty simple opinion that I've yet to hear a good reason as to why it can't work apart from smart arse accusations that I don't understand this or that without actually any explanation as to why I'm wrong.

The reference to professional athletes was because the post I quoted has said..."Olympics, Champions League, World Cup".

Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a great deal of professionals participating in the World Cup and Champions League?


Perhaps if you looked for the context in something rather than assume you're much smarter and all knowing than someone then you'd not look so pompous.

Hi Jayop, I honestly wasn't trying to be nor do I believe I am a pompous, all knowing, smart arse but if I did offend you at all I do apologise. And as I said previously, I am no expert on drug testing.

I think that there are very different attitudes to sports and particularly drugs within some sports as opposed to others. There is a believe that some sports and participants warrant testing and some don’t or that the same criteria shouldn’t apply.

The point is the Olympics, World Cup (I presume soccer) and Champions League bear no relation to the Irish Sports Council except that some Irish sports people may take part in some of those competitions. IABA, Athletics Ireland, GAA, Swim Ireland and other Irish governing sporting bodies are under the auspices of the Irish Sports Council. As such they should all be subject to similar criteria under the National Anti-Doping Programme that they facilitate.

I understand that you have no problem with testing and I realise that it may be difficult in GAA circles to understand procedures as it is relatively new within the GAA. Testing comes with a whole load of inconveniences for players, athletes etc. Some testing procedures can take hours, if an athlete is dehydrated for example, or can involve an unannounced early morning house call. I can also understand Jim Galvin's views and accept that he has no issue with testing but as a coach of the Dublin team he should by now know that this can happen. It can’t have come as surprise either as I am sure he would have been aware that testers were in the house. It is not the intention of the testers to scupper the enjoyment of the players after their win. If testing was done before or during a game it would be more of an inconvenience to players and the preparation of the team. And obviously there are reasons for testing after a game that a player just played in. Again, I say I am no expert, but different substances cause different effects and require different, boarder testing procedures.

The Irish Sports Council do a good job of testing and keeping Irish Sport clean as a result, and they will catch cheaters and dissuade potential cheaters.

STB.

I have to laugh at the running boys jumping on the sensationalist thread title.

The Dublin Manager was complaining about the timing and that was what i agreed with.

The simple point is Gaelic games is not a high risk doping sport. The only reason that the doping tests exist in the game is to appease the Irish Sports Council who provide some funding to the organisation. If the grants weren't there, timing of dope testing amateur players wouldn't be an issue, as it simply would not exist. GAA does not have a professional outlet after its amateur status.

Now athletics and cycling are high risk in that there are international medals, huge pressures to perform and/or money at stake. Yeah these sports for very good reason have governing bodies that seek to protect the sports name. But hey even that's a joke. I take achievements in both with a huge degree of scepticism.

Birdie Num Num

STB. wrote: »

I have to laugh at the running boys jumping on the sensationalist thread title.

The Dublin Manager was complaining about the timing and that was what i agreed with.

The simple point is Gaelic games is not a high risk doping sport. The only reason that the doping tests exist in the game is to appease the Irish Sports Council who provide some funding to the organisation. If the grants weren't there, timing of dope testing amateur players wouldn't be an issue, as it simply would not exist. GAA does not have a professional outlet after its amateur status.

Now athletics and cycling are high risk in that there are international medals, huge pressures to perform and/or money at stake. Yeah these sports for very good reason have governing bodies that seek to protect the sports name. But hey even that's a joke. I take achievements in both with a huge degree of scepticism.

With all due respect I think you display a lot of ignorance and division of sport.

Can I also ask you what 15 years of drug testing was in place for you to come out with this earlier comment?:

In 15 years, you can count on two fingers the numbers who have turned up positive tests which were as a result of using a Ventolin inhaler

jmayo

Bonniedog wrote: »

....

Finally, I detect a definite Kiernanesque excuse to attack 'the gah' because some athletics people are manically jealous of the GAA which attracts most of the best athletes in the country, rather than participate in sports where there is not a world record or probably a national record, that is not highly suspect.

Now, fk off and get your own house in order

I have reported your post because I don't take kindly to being told to fk off.

I don't know what a Kiernanesque excuse is btw.

And I have absolutely no association with athletics. :rolleyes:
I would be last person who would fight for athletics.
I find it terribly boring in fact.

I am just not blinkered enough to think that GAA is any different to most sports, paid or not.
There will always be cheaters.
Thinking otherwise is foolish.

And if you think I have this opinion just on GAA check out a post I made recently about how soccer has probably huge problem that a lot of people just want to gloss over.

STB. wrote: »

...
Now athletics and cycling are high risk in that there are international medals, huge pressures to perform and/or money at stake. Yeah these sports for very good reason have governing bodies that seek to protect the sports name. But hey even that's a joke. I take achievements in both with a huge degree of scepticism.

You can add a lot more sports to that.
Hell a lot of the other ones at the olympics have been proven to have high level of drug cheats ala swimming, weightlifting, wrestling.

Hell in the 2004 Winter & Summer Olympics there were positive results in Archery, Boxing, Table Tennis, Badminton, Volleyball, Sking, Curling.

Curling FFS.

rebel girl 15

I'm reopening the thread - if ye can't keep it civil then I suggest you don't post or you will end up not being allowed to post.

Doesn't matter what sporting background people are from, the issue can be debated without getting personal - if it does, you know the consequences

Raven_k42

While enjoying the joust so far...I've avoided commenting on this debate. However...STB's " The only reason that the doping tests exist in the game is to appease the Irish Sports Council who provide some funding to the organisation" demands a reply.

Testing exists...everywhere...to be fair to EVERY athlete. It might be regulated by ISC etc...but it's about ensuring a level playing field. Every participant is entitled that.

In all serious sports...and GAA is a serious sport...these basic rules must apply. Jim Gavin's comments are somewhat petulant. He should know better...but it doesn't really matter anyway. His opinion is just that. He's out of line with the way the system needs to operate.

Bonniedog

Point taken RG, but I was not directing my comment at anyone in particular. But I apologise if it was taken as such.

Prickly Pete

ThisRegard wrote: »

I can't believe people still ask these questions, even my 6 year old daughter knows why people cheat in games.

I responded to a post where it was suggested that where finances were involved people would cheat.However GAA players are not paid any money so there is no financial reason for them to cheat unlike in professional sport.

I'm perfectly aware why a sportsman would cheat (to help them win obviously) however the suggestion in the post I initially responded to that it has something to do with money is simply not true for GAA players.