Doping in GAA - Jim Gavin not happy with post match drug testing

Bonniedog

Nor has anyone adequately responded to Gavin's actual point as to why players are not tested at times other than immediately following matches.

The sort of stuff physical team sports players are likely to use will be in system the next day.

ProudDUB

I think it is very unfair that people are dragging Jim Gavin's good name through the mud & trying to imply that he has some sort of anti dope testing agenda, just because he was ticked off at the manner of the testing on Sunday.

If people want to get into a debate on the merits drug testing in the GAA vs other sports, or the odds of GAA players being cheats, fine, but leave him out of it. All he wanted was for his players to be able to enjoy the post match celebrations with their team mates, take part in the Laochra show and, not spend the hour after the game in the bowels of the stadium, isolated from every one and everything.

The Sports Council testing authorities have already come out and said that the players do not have be subjected to that level of confinement. If they wanted to go out side and watch the show, they should have been allowed to do so, as long as they were under constant supervision by the testers.

It seems like the testers did not know that they could do that, they couldn't be arsed deviating from normal procedure, or they just decided to be assholes about it. But that is all Jim Gavin wanted - for some measure and consideration and cop on to be shown & for his players to be able to join their team mates on a very historic occasion. At no time, has he said that he was against his players being tested, full stop.

The OP and/or posters here who seem to unable or unwilling to grasp that, are just letting themselves down.

Bonniedog

Exactly.

As I said above, they reported Clare hurlers for moving a training session without telling them, with the clear implication that this was done for sinister reasons. I have read the report and that is exactly how it comes across.

Which is an outrageous slur on Clare. The reason the session was moved was because the country was flooded and they couldn't hardly find a pitch fit for purpose with lighting. Not to get the boys offside and get them hopped up on goofballs!

downthemiddle

ProudDUB wrote: »

It seems like the testers did not know that they could do that, they couldn't be arsed deviating from normal procedure, or they just decided to be assholes about it. But that is all Jim Gavin wanted - for some measure and consideration and cop on to be shown & for his players to be able to join their team mates on a very historic occasion. At no time, has he said that he was against his players being tested, full stop.

The OP and/or posters here who seem to unable or unwilling to grasp that, are just letting themselves down.

Oh dear talk about jumping to conclusions.
The testers are fully aware of the procedures and what is required of them. They test athletes on a daily basis and follow very strict protocols otherwise the testing is invalid. If anyone was unaware of the correct procedures it appears to be Jim Gavin.
His statement was surprising in the first place. He is normally a man who is very measured in his comments to the press and it is most unlike him to make a faux pas like this. His statement suggests that he hasn't familiarised himself with the procedures which is surprising for a man in his position. It further suggests that he is unaware of the reasons for in competition testing. With the lack of knowledge he has displayed I'm surprised that a man normally so measured in his public statements has left himself open to justifiable criticism.

downthemiddle

Bonniedog wrote: »

Exactly.

As I said above, they reported Clare hurlers for moving a training session without telling them, with the clear implication that this was done for sinister reasons. I have read the report and that is exactly how it comes across.

Which is an outrageous slur on Clare. The reason the session was moved was because the country was flooded and they couldn't hardly find a pitch fit for purpose with lighting. Not to get the boys offside and get them hopped up on goofballs!

Again a lack of understanding of how the system works. There is no implication that Clare moved a session for sinister reasons but they failed to meet their obligations to the ISC by not informing them of their whereabouts.
You may or may not know who Christine Ohuruogu is but she is one of the more high profile casualties of the whereabouts rule.
Christine Ohuruogu was suspended from competing in the 2006 European Athletics Championships because she had committed a doping violation.She missed three out-of-competition drug tests, known as the "whereabouts" system, of the World Anti-Doping Code; one in October 2005 and then a further two in June 2006. Under IAAF and British Olympic Association rules, she received a one-year ban for missing these tests, which expired on 5 August 2007. The final test missed occurred when Ohuruogu failed to inform the testers of a last-minute change of training venue after a double-booking. Due to the circumstances, the Independent Committee stated "There is no suggestion, nor any grounds for suspicion, that the offence may have been deliberate in order to prevent testing," and that a fair ban would have been 3 months. Ohuruogu passed tests 9 days before and 3 days after her final violation.
These are the rules that GAA players are now signed up, like it or not they will have to get used to it. It won't change anytime soon.

ProudDUB

downthemiddle wrote: »

Oh dear talk about jumping to conclusions.
The testers are fully aware of the procedures and what is required of them. They test athletes on a daily basis and follow very strict protocols otherwise the testing is invalid. If anyone was unaware of the correct procedures it appears to be Jim Gavin.
His statement was surprising in the first place. He is normally a man who is very measured in his comments to the press and it is most unlike him to make a faux pas like this. His statement suggests that he hasn't familiarised himself with the procedures which is surprising for a man in his position. It further suggests that he is unaware of the reasons for in competition testing. With the lack of knowledge he has displayed I'm surprised that a man normally so measured in his public statements has left himself open to justifiable criticism.

The Sports Council issued a statement saying that the players should have been allowed go outside, as long as they were supervised. They were not allowed to do that. They were made to stay in the basement testing area for over an hour. So it seems that the Sports Council testers were the ones who did not know what they were, or were not allowed to do. It wasn't Jim Gavin.

To be fair to the testers, there isn't usually an event after a game, that the teams may want to go out and watch. Teams normally leave the stadium, as soon as their game is over. So it's not like this is an issue that occurs every single time the testers go to Croke Park to take samples.

But even so, if their Sports Council bosses were ok with players leaving the test area & going outside (which they clearly were, going by their statement) it is up to the testers to know what the protocols and procedures are IN THEIR OWN ORGANIZATION. In this instance, it seems that they did not.

Jayop

There's a really good reason that GAA people aren't as familiar with the reasons for certain types of testing. If they were looking for ways to hide doping they would know them inside out like the Athletics people seem to do.

The comments made by the OP were a slur and ProudDub isn't jumping to conclusions when they say that.

Dyr

downthemiddle wrote: »

Oh dear talk about jumping to conclusions.
The testers are fully aware of the procedures and what is required of them. They test athletes on a daily basis and follow very strict protocols otherwise the testing is invalid. If anyone was unaware of the correct procedures it appears to be Jim Gavin.
.

You better tell the head of the ISC anti doping unit that so, I'm sure she'll defer to your greater knowledge on the subject.

marienbad

Bonniedog wrote: »

Nor has anyone adequately responded to Gavin's actual point as to why players are not tested at times other than immediately following matches.

The sort of stuff physical team sports players are likely to use will be in system the next day.

Yeah Bonnie I gave an answer to those very questions in post no. 74

Jayop

Bambi wrote: »

You better tell the head of the ISC anti doping unit that so, I'm sure she'll defer to your greater knowledge on the subject.

Any chance of a link to that statement because it would be of great assistance in helping a load of people in this thread eat their words.

downthemiddle

ProudDUB wrote: »

The Sports Council issued a statement saying that the players should have been allowed go outside, as long as they were supervised. They were not allowed to do that. They were made to stay in the basement testing area for over an hour. So it seems that the Sports Council testers were the ones who did not know what they were, or were not allowed to do were & not Jim Gavin.

To be fair to the testers, there isn't usually an event after a game, that the teams may want to go out and watch. Teams normally leave the stadium, as soon as their game is over. So it's not like this is an issue that occurs every single time the testers go to Croke Park to take samples.

But even so, if their Sports Council bosses were ok with players leaving the test area & going outside (which they clearly were, going by their statement) it is up to the testers to know what THEIR OWN ORGANIZATIONS protocols and procedures were. In this instance, it seems that they did not.

Again the testers know their role, it is very specifically defined. If the players had asked to watch the show the testers would have been obliged to let them do so. The testers would be very much aware of this fact but it appears the players were not. As long as the players remained at the venue and under supervision there is no issue.
To put this issue in another context let's take the case of Thomas Connolly. If Connolly had avoided detection until after the Ulster final last year and then tested positive form a test in Clones the day of the final Monaghan's victory would be forever tainted. It is a positive for the sport that testing is taking place.
Sporting heroes should be role models. The beauty of the GAA is that the man who stars in front of 80,000 people on a Sunday is the man you meet buying his milk on a Monday and shares a dressing room with you on a Tuesday. The children of his parish have a real life hero. It is better for all that these heroes are beyond reproach.

Bonniedog

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah Bonnie I gave an answer to those very questions in post no. 74

I don't think you did actually!

The sort of stuff a GAA or any other physical team player is likely to take will be enhancers to maximise the benefit of strength and conditioning. These remain in system for quite a time.

You also refer to "micro dosing" which I assume would refer to something like the "greenies" or speed type drug which baseball players and others used to use as a stimulant on match day.

You are not seriously suggesting that any player is using these are you?

It is also the case is it not that some rugby and soccer players were tested positive for cocaine and other "recreational" drugs on other than match days?

Dyr

Jayop wrote: »

Any chance of a link to that statement because it would be of great assistance in helping a load of people in this thread eat their words.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/players-should-not-have-missed-croker-laochra-show-because-of-drug-tests-sports-council-34659269.html

So what we have is:

Jim Gavin says "thats not one"

Malcontents gets up on their high horse, commence lecturing

Head of doping agency says "you're right Jim it wasn't on"

Malcontents refuse to dismount their high horse cleanly, insists athletics types would know more about doping procedures than head of doping unit... Which I'd well believe

downthemiddle

Bambi wrote: »

You better tell the head of the ISC anti doping unit that so, I'm sure she'll defer to your greater knowledge on the subject.

I have done some work with the anti doping unit of the ISC, I certainly don't claim to have more knowledge than Dr May but I would guess I'm more familiar with the procedures than most posters on this thread.

Jayop

downthemiddle wrote: »

I have done some work with the anti doping unit of the ISC, I certainly don't claim to have more knowledge than Dr May but I would guess I'm more familiar with the procedures than most posters on this thread.

Yet despite all of your posts which were dripping with self righteousness the head of the ISC has basically said everything you were complaining about was wrong. Can you not just be the bigger man/woman now and admit you were wrong?

downthemiddle

Bambi wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/players-should-not-have-missed-croker-laochra-show-because-of-drug-tests-sports-council-34659269.html

So what we have is:

Jim Gavin says "thats not one"

Malcontents gets up on their high horse, commence lecturing

Head of doping agency says "you're right Jim it wasn't on"

Malcontents refuse to dismount their high horse cleanly, insists athletics types would know more about doping procedures than head of doping unit... Which I'd well believe

What she actually said
"The players could have watched the show under supervision and been tested afterwards.
We are always as accommodating as we can be. We know testing can cause frustration for sportspeople so we do our best to work with them."


In other words if the players had asked they could have watched the show, the testing procedures did not prevent them from watching the show. If the players desperately wanted to watch the show testing would not have prevented them from doing so.

Jayop

downthemiddle wrote: »

What she actually said
"The players could have watched the show under supervision and been tested afterwards.
We are always as accommodating as we can be. We know testing can cause frustration for sportspeople so we do our best to work with them."


In other words if the players had asked they could have watched the show, the testing procedures did not prevent them from watching the show. If the players desperately wanted to watch the show testing would not have prevented them from doing so.

lol

You'll just refuse to admit you were wrong wont you. It's funny and something else in equal measures. I'll keep what the something else is to myself.

Go back and read the OP of this thread and see what got people annoyed. You've since then defended the OP' stance and now you all look ridiculous.

Bonniedog

Connolly was caught during a test in February 2015, before the league had even started. Has anyone in the GAA said that such testing should not be carried out? Gavin's annoyance was purely regarding the timing and procedure of the post match test on two Dublin and two Kerry players. And it would seem from Bambi and Jayop's links that he has been vindicated.

OP clearly intended to imply all sorts of things for whatever reasons best known to him or herself ...

Jayop

Bambi wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/players-should-not-have-missed-croker-laochra-show-because-of-drug-tests-sports-council-34659269.html

So what we have is:

Jim Gavin says "thats not one"

Malcontents gets up on their high horse, commence lecturing

Head of doping agency says "you're right Jim it wasn't on"

Malcontents refuse to dismount their high horse cleanly, insists athletics types would know more about doping procedures than head of doping unit... Which I'd well believe

Athletics types being ahead of the curve when it comes to doping isn't any great surprise.

I wonder does it annoy them how few GAA payers have been caught.

downthemiddle

Jayop wrote: »

Yet despite all of your posts which were dripping with self righteousness the head of the ISC has basically said everything you were complaining about was wrong. Can you not just be the bigger man/woman now and admit you were wrong?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/doping-director-defends-league-final-testing-395042.html
"The four players drug-tested after Sunday’s Division 1 final were granted permission by testers to watch the Laochra show that followed the game.Dr Una May, director of the Irish Sports Council anti-doping unit, said there had been measures taken to ensure those called on to give urine samples could choose to delay going through the procedure to take in the 1916 commemoration"

downthemiddle

Jayop wrote: »

Athletics types being ahead of the curve when it comes to doping isn't any great surprise.

I wonder does it annoy them how few GAA payers have been caught.

I'm a GAA coach but don't let that stop you jumping to conclusions.

Dyr

downthemiddle wrote: »

I have done some work with the anti doping unit of the ISC, I certainly don't claim to have more knowledge than Dr May but I would guess I'm more familiar with the procedures than most posters on this thread.

So you accept that you were entirely in the wrong and Jim Gavin was in the right as the illustrious Dr May of the esteemed anti doping unit (god bless the work) has confirmed?

downthemiddle

Bambi wrote: »

So you accept that you were entirely in the wrong and Jim Gavin was in the right as the illustrious Dr May of the esteemed anti doping unit (god bless the work) has confirmed?

I can only refer you back to post #111 which is pretty conclusive.

ThisRegard

Jayop wrote: »

Athletics types being ahead of the curve when it comes to doping isn't any great surprise.

I wonder does it annoy them how few GAA payers have been caught.

You need to grow up if you actually believe this.

marienbad

Bonniedog wrote: »

I don't think you did actually!

The sort of stuff a GAA or any other physical team player is likely to take will be enhancers to maximise the benefit of strength and conditioning. These remain in system for quite a time.

You also refer to "micro dosing" which I assume would refer to something like the "greenies" or speed type drug which baseball players and others used to use as a stimulant on match day.

You are not seriously suggesting that any player is using these are you?

It is also the case is it not that some rugby and soccer players were tested positive for cocaine and other "recreational" drugs on other than match days?

I did answer your queries Bonnie , testing before the game or at half time simply opens up the field to any other potential cheats involved in the contest now that they can be certain they won't be tested .

And out of competition testing is also an essential part of the process .

I am not making any suggestions as to what players are using , that is the the point of a testing regime - to discourage and detect .

downthemiddle

Jayop wrote: »

lol

You'll just refuse to admit you were wrong wont you. It's funny and something else in equal measures. I'll keep what the something else is to myself.

Go back and read the OP of this thread and see what got people annoyed. You've since then defended the OP' stance and now you all look ridiculous.

I will also refer you to post #111.

Jayop

downthemiddle wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/doping-director-defends-league-final-testing-395042.html
"The four players drug-tested after Sunday’s Division 1 final were granted permission by testers to watch the Laochra show that followed the game.Dr Una May, director of the Irish Sports Council anti-doping unit, said there had been measures taken to ensure those called on to give urine samples could choose to delay going through the procedure to take in the 1916 commemoration"

So, that means less than nothing. In fact it reenforces what Gavin was saying and makes a bigger fool out of the OP.

That the message didn't get to the players/Gavin or the testers didn't bother to tell them is irrelevant. The fact is the OP choose to attack Jim Gavin for suggesting that the testing could have waited until after the event. Yourself and many others rowed in behind that statement, pretty much called myself and others idiots for not knowing how important it was to test immediately after the game and how outrageous it was that Gavin would suggest such a thing. Then we discover that the ISC's head of anti-doping agrees that the players should have been allowed to watch the thing.

Be it down to stringent roles or a miscommunication it doesn't change the fact that the OP was miles out of line and there are a few people in this thread with egg on their faces.

Jayop

ThisRegard wrote: »

You need to grow up if you actually believe this.

I think it's clear which posters need to grow up and maybe admit they were wrong.

Jayop

downthemiddle wrote: »

I will also refer you to post #111.

I'll refer you to post #1`which is pretty conclusive. :rolleyes:

downthemiddle

Jayop wrote: »

So, that means less than nothing. In fact it reenforces what Gavin was saying and makes a bigger fool out of the OP.

Please explain how this reinforces Jim Gavin's call for no in competition testing.