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Still trying to figure it all out.
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hot buttered scones wrote: »1:31:55 by my watch. A new PB. Online results aren't up yet. The last 2 miles are a f0cker. Tired, a bit sore and happy now. I'll do a proper report sometime later maybe. All the online calculators are giving me a marathon time of between 3:13 and 3:15. They must taking the proverbial. Couldn't eat the cake. They only had small iced ones anyway.
Yup, that bridge around mile 11 really sucks a lot out of you, despite its relatively short length. I was running with a friend of a friend, who was mad to push on. I convinced him to just stick to the pace we were going at as I knew the bridge was coming and see how he felt after that. He didn't push on
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hot buttered scones wrote: »1:31:55 by my watch. A new PB. Online results aren't up yet. The last 2 miles are a f0cker. Tired, a bit sore and happy now. I'll do a proper report sometime later maybe. All the online calculators are giving me a marathon time of between 3:13 and 3:15. They must taking the proverbial. Couldn't eat the cake. They only had small iced ones anyway.
Well done today. Great run. BTW the cakes were very tasty. I managed a couple
Keep up the good work!0 -
Saturday 17th
4 easy including 6x100m strides. Just a saunter round the Glen, with a few strides on the football pitch to loosen out towards the end. 9:45, 9:52, 9:33 the 6x100m with 1 minutes jog back and a slow lap to cool down.
Sunday 18th
Charleville 1/2 marathon
Before I decided on Dublin this was going to be my goal race for the year so even if it didn't exactly fit into the plan, I was always going to do it. Usual morning routine. Arrived in Charleville with an hour to spare. Got my number and togged off. Met FBOT01 and TBL and had a quick chat all hyped up on nerves and coffee. Bumped into a neighbour of mine so I toddled of for a slow warm up with him (1.5 miles @9:31). Did a very good impersonation of someone doing a dynamic warmup stretch yokey and lined up behind the 1:30 pacers. Just like last year it started to p1ss rain about 10 minutes before the off (I think I run better in the rain anyway, and it was still quite warmish). Headed off with the pacers ---- where the f are the pacers??? Caught up with them and looked at the watch - f this sez I where doing 6:35 here (one of em finished just outside 1:27:xx after) so I backed off. Bloke next checks what pace I'm on - he says something in metric and me in imperial and we both nod as we have the faintest idea what the other is on about. Anyway there's about 6 or 7 heads there all falling of the back of the 1:30 group all agreeing the face is too hot. After about a mile another pacer with no balloon makes his way up to us and we follow him at actual 1:30 pace. Well, they did anyway, I dropped back after about four miles. Felt a bit sick going through Killmallock (not again - happened at DCM 15 too). Looking at the HR data afterwards it says my average HR for the mile through Killmallock was 191 with a max of 203, and while I did get a boost and push it a bit from the (small but appreciated) crowd, I'm not in a hospital bed with wires hanging out me, so I'm calling BS on the optical HR here. Out the backroad then, which was a bit undulating. I passed a few here and was passed too. I went with a guy who I met after, but he took off and I couldn't stay with. The few downward drags gave a bit of respite, but I was flagging by mile 11. Mile 12 was mental torture and mile 13 was just pure evil. The last 4 miles were a long drag really with a hoor of a bridge, which was fun on the out but seemed to be mocking me on the way back. In the last mile it felt like I was alternating between slow HMP and MP. The final drag/hill as you turned the corner in the last mile - I took it easy and then launched the afterburners. Turned the corner towards the finish line and dragged out the last of my reserves (thank you 100m strides) the cross the line in a PB of 1:31:52 chip time. Previous time from last year was 1:34:39, but I was really trying too break an in race split of 1:32:3x or so from a 25k race earlier on in the year. Went swiftly to the fence for the purposes of having a good empty reach. Met FBOT01 and TBL again, only this time I was all hyped up on PBness and adrenaline. To my disgust I couldn't stomach the cake so had half a ham sandwich. The massages were outside this year. I queued up for a bit in the heavy rain, and then couldn't be bothered so I left for a cool down jog/slog - barely managed the 1 mile in 10:23, but I was freezing by this stage. Had a nice hot, free shower in the GAA hall and headed back home for a big plate of stew and spuds. One yeah - the splits
6:33 (fer focksake), 6:50, 6:45, 6:47, 7:01, 7:03, 6:59, 6:50, 7:09, 7:11, 7:16, 7:16, 7:21 (oh dear!), finish line dash in 6:35
Not as flat as a pancake, but no real hills either. A great well run race where all you have to do is rock up and run and everything else is looked after. Big kudos to the youngsters manning the water station in such horrible weather. I ran this like a 10 miler with a few "oh jesus make the pain stop" miles thrown in for good measure at the end. There's a sub 1:30 in me eventually, just not yet. Delighted to get a time like this in the middle of mara training. In summary back of 1:30 pace after 5 miles and tried to hold a steady 7:00 to 7:05, but the lungs stopped playing ball after mile 8 and the legs joined in after mile 10. A good day at the office. If only my splits were the other way round.
Strava:
https://www.strava.com/activities/716399931
Smashrun graphic:
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P+D week 13 Part 1
19/09-25/09
Day|Plan|Actual|Splits/Avg|HR|Comments
Monday| Rest or CT|S+C and recovery work|||
Tuesday| 8miles General Aerobic| 8.2 miles| 8:57, 8:51, 8;41, 8;30, 8:40, 8:32, 8:48, 8:56 and 0.2@8:59| 142 avearge |Evening run – paced too fast in the middle, tired by the end
Wednesday|9mi w/ 5x100m @5k |2 w/up, 5x1k rec 2:30, 2.6 c/down|9:04, 9:03, 1ks in 3:55; 4:00; 3:53; 3:58; 4:01, 8:55; 8:40, 8:45| <139 w/up, 147-151 c/down. Strap acting funny for a couple of intervals but up near 180| Felt fine. Cool evening, but dizzy after
Thursday| Rest or CT| Rest|| |Had planned on doing more S+C but life happened. Ate a kebab instead. It was dirty and gorgeous.
Friday| 12 mi Medium long |12|9:07; 8:44; 8:51; 8:54; 9:12; 8:41; 9:14; 9:00; 8:58; 9:08; 8:43; 9:14|132-144 average/mile, couple of spikes higher on short climbs | Hilly/Rolling course, wind blowing me backwards in places
Saturday| 5 recovery| | | |
Sunday|18 mi w/ 14@ MP | |||
Monday 19/9
Epsom salts in a hot bath followed by stretching and foam rolling. Also 2x15 eccentric calf lifts, 2x15 single leg squats, 3 point bridge – 2x15 lhs + 3x10 rhs, 2x15 lunges, Rope stretches – hamstring, hip flexors. Full foam roll, trigger point ball on glute meds and TFL. Probably some other stuff too. Felt good after this and surprisingly not to wrecked after the half on Sunday.
Tuesday 20/9
8 miles General Aerobic.
Woke up feeling tired and couldn’t face running. Threw my gear in the bag and went to work and I’d make up my mind in there on what to do. I decided to do the miles that evening around the city centre in the dark and was actually really looking forward to the change of scenery and it was 12 hours extra recovery after the half wasn’t it? I thought I’d feel really sluggish but had to check myself after the 4th mile to slow down. That said the last 2 miles felt forced. Enjoyed this run
Wednesday 21/9
9 miles with 5x1000m @ 5k pace , 50%-90% interval time between
Just like last week, I woke up feeling crap. I somehow foolishly thought that getting up early to do an interval session less than 10 hours after I finished last night’s run was a good idea. I woke up late with a headache so I did the only thing you can do in this situation – rang in sick, turned over and went back to sleep for a bit. The extra sleep did me good and as the day wore on I started feeling restless and dying for a run. Headed out to the Lee Fields to do an interval session on the Straight Road, fully prepared to pull the plug if things went awry. I felt good during the warmup and launched into the first interval. I was reading someone elses log during the week (can’t remember who) and they described their intervals as (paraphrasing here) “too fast, the too slow, then just right at the end” which is an accurate enough description of each 1k here. The recoveries were ok – but I had resorted to walking the first 30 seconds of the last 3 recoveries. I think I stopped for a breather once or twice during the recoveries. Anyway, the splits are in the table above – all fairly close to 5k pace (about 4min/km). The 3rd one was a bit off because I paid too much attention to my watch when the start of the interval was under tree cover. Overall the intervals were hard work, and I was wrecked after the 5th one (which was fairly hard) and was struggling over the last 300m or so of each one. The warm down was weird. I took the 2:30 recovery and then just picked it up slightly. After about half a mile I felt really strong, and the 2nd recovery mile was approaching steady pace. I just felt like I was floating along effortlessly, like my legs were moving by themselves– it’s almost like I couldn’t feel them. Actually it had gotten a bit cold and I couldn’t really feel my legs. When I stopped I felt fairly dizzy for a few seconds – I hadn’t eaten much that day. I downed a bottle of Lucozade sport and felt a bit better. I was fairly happy to have completed the session more or less on target with the paces.
Friday 23/9
12 medium long
In between night shifts. I’d left work an hour early to get an hours extra sleep in. I think I slept for about 6 hours, so not bad. I headed into work 2 hours early to get this run in. This was one of thise going through the motions runs – I’d have happily sat at home eating biscuits but just wanted to get the miles in. The paces were all over the place as can be seen above, but the HR was fairly consistent throughout so an even effort more or less. I choose a route with a few short hills – more for variety than anything else – I’m starting to get a bit bored with my usual routes. The wind was also horrendous – I was definitely going 2min/mile slower coming back over the bridge out of Haulbowline at one stage – and I don’t think I felt the benefit when it was behind me. Anyway, I was just glad to get this out of the way and done. I’m still surprised at how blasé I’ve become about these midweek 12-14 mile runs during this training program. I’m not even thinking of them in terms of being a long run anymore. I suppose this means the training is working.
Overall a good week so far – a few niggles and twinges on the 12 mile run, but I think I’ve recovered ok from the half. I appear to be fighting a headcold of sorts that keeps coming and going and I’m praying doesn’t develop into full blown sickness. I got a bit freaked reading the Random Running Questions thread – basically there’s no way I should have done Wednesdays session so soon after racing – I even reread the relevant parts of the book. Every little niggle I might have or not have is feeling fairly amplified at the moment.
I’m now contemplating dropping Sundays scheduled run and just doing 18-20 easy miles, and then doing the MP run next week instead of the 10k race followed by a long run the next day. I don’t know yet, it’ll depend on how I feel Sunday morning and what way the weather is. I can’t do the 10k race because I’m working nights Friday and there isn’t really one on anyway. I did find a 10k fun run in Bruff at 2pm on Saturday – but doing that would mean getting up after only about 3 hours sleep to drive 1hr20mins up the country, then driving back down for another night shift, then getting up early again to fix the sleep pattern and run 17 miles – so completely ridiculous. Of course this means this I’m seriously considering it.
Either that or I sneak out of work to do the Lust for life 5k thing at 2am on the runway in Cork Airport – but that’s €25 for a 5k (even though its for charity). What will probably happen in reality is a half arsed solo 5 mile tempo around the harbour in Ringaskiddy before work (is going to be planned as a 10k but I’ll give up) that I’ll call a “time trial”.
I’d actually like a decent session to do just so I can get some good training benefits and still run the next days long run on tired legs – it would be better than trying to bang out race pace miles on my own. These are really important weeks of this plan and I don’t want to make a mess of them and waste all the previous weeks of training.
Edit: Having read everything on the RRQ thread, and looked at the plan and my own training, I've decided to give the PMP session a lash on Sunday. I raced a half, when the plan had a 10 mile race with a 17 mile long run afterwards, and I ran a 45 mile week when the plan had 55 miles if you raced a 10 miler. I'm also toying with the idea of doing some of it at 3:20 pace (7:38/mile) just to get a feel for the pace and see if running DCM based on what all the online calculators say I can do is possible. McMillan say 3:13:20. runningforfitness.org gives an average of 3:12:12 based on a VO2 max prediction of 3:11:20, a Riegel formula prediction of 3:11:31 and a Cameron Formula prediction of 3:15:12. (I don't know what the last two are but they sound impressive ). So taking the slowest at 3:15 and adding 5 minutes for elevation gives 3:20. I just afraid to actually commit to that - it would mean an 18 minute PB, so I'll give a few miles a 7:38 a lash and see how they feel.
Edit 2: It's quite night here. Anyway:
Distance|PB|Date of PB|McMillan Prediction based on HM|Daniels Prediction
5k|19:58|15/06/16|19:51|19:58
10k|42:01|24/06/16|41:12|41:38
10 mile|1:08:53|06/03/16|1:08:52|1:08:57
HM|1:31:52|18/09/16|-|-
25k|1:50:32|17/04/16|1:50:22|1:49:58
Marathon|3:38:39|26/10/15|3:13:20|3:11:32
So all these times are fairly close to the predicted except for the marathon. Am I selling myself short by going for 3:25 - 3:30 or being sensible? 2 things have happened this year - I've gotten faster and built endurance from following Myles' Graduate plan. I haven't really gotten any faster from following P+D, but my endurance and recovery has improved - this hasn't really been tested yet though - the 25k was run at the end of the graduate plan with a 1:32:30 HM split, so some improvement on that but not much. It looks like I'm running pretty close to my predicted times and if you plug any of those PBs (except the marathon) into a calculator it'll spit out times close to the other PBs. Do I dare go for a 3:15 to 3:20? Is that the kind of thinking that gets you into trouble - respect the distance and all that?0 -
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P+D week 14 Part 2
26/09-02/10
Day|Plan|Actual|Splits/Avg|HR|Comments
Monday| Rest or CT|Rest|||
Tuesday| 8miles w/5x600m@5k|11 medium long| 9:01, 9:03, 8:55, 9:10, 8:50, 8:47, 9:03, 8:41, 8:49, 9:02, 8:59| 146 with some spikes on short climbs |Warm day, tired legs. Swapped with Wed.
Wednesday|11 medium long |8miles w/5x600m@5k - 1:30 rec.| 600m splits(pace) 2:22(6:21), 2:19(6:13), 2:21(6:18), 2:18(6:10), 2:18(6:10)|| Swap with Tues. Late PM
Thursday| Rest or CT| Rest|| |
Friday| 4 recovery w/6x100m strides |4 with strides|10:05, 10:06, strides (1 min rec) - 19, 18, 19,20, 18, 19, 9:42, a bit at 10:35|creeped up to about 140 during warmup - a bit high| Laps of the pitch.
Saturday|8k-15k race (9-13 miles total)|Makey-uppy progression run - 1.5 easy, 3@MP, 2.5@HMP, 1.5@10k, 1.5 easy |8:57, 0.5@9:15, 7:44, 7:40, 7:40, 6:55, 7:05, 0.5@7:01, 6:50, 0.5@6:46, 9:16, 0.5@9:33|151-156 ave for MP bits |10k bits were more like 10 mile.
Sunday|17 long |17 miles| 9:27, 9:17, 9:05, 9:23, 9:02, 9:12, 9:06, 8:56, 9:00, 9:12, 9:28, 9:19, 9:18, 9:16, 9:29, 8:53, 8:01|1-9 130-144 ave, 10-17 145-165 ave|One of the hardest runs yet
Saturday 02/10
Decided on doing a progression run late in the evening just before work. 10 miles total. The bargaining started the minute I woke up after night shift (go out at 4, no 5, do 13, just do an easy run etc.) so I settled on a 10 miler that didn't look to intimidating. Felt sluggish during the easy warmup. Felt greta during the MP sections. I kept having to dial the pace back as I was drifting towards 7:30 pace a lot. HR stayed nice and low as well. Even so, I plan on starting the race at 7:50 or so, so this is a good sign. The rest was pretty tough. The HMP section was harder than expected. I had to stop briefly after 2 miles to have a coughing fit. Set off again and the same happened about 1/2 a mile into the 10k-10 mile section. Was able to the do the last bit of the 10k bit closer to 10k pace but it was mostly @ 10 mile pace - I couldn't go any faster. Still happy enough with this run given it was between night shifts and it served the purpose of inducing fatigue for Sunday
Sunday 3/10
17 LSR. Pure torture. One of the toughest runs in a while. The tank was pretty empty - I'd had a small lunch at midnight, porridge at 7 and then about 5 hours sleep. I had 2 slices of toast and marmalade and headed out around 3ish. The weather was ok about 14 C, but with a stiff cold breeze. The book says to start these off at recovery pace and push on if you can once you loosen out, but I never really got going. I felt comfortable from mile 4 to about mile 9, but then I started to tire. Around mile 10 I felt that familiar bonky feeling coming on so I took an emergency gel. I took another around 13 miles. HR also started to climb after mile 10. I stopped watching the pace and just tried to run an even effort but tbh the head just wasn't into it and the legs were really tired. I stopped just after 15 miles for a few seconds, debating whether to just walk back to the car, but decided to push on. I upped a gear from about 15.5 miles on and was surprised to find something left in the tank. I even had a little bit left for a bit of sprint near the end if the last mile - I was crossing the road, I sped up because there was cars coming and it felt ok so I kept it up for a minute or so. I sure as hell hope the training effect from todays run was worth it because I did find it really tough for nearly the whole thing - so much so that I'm considering not repeating a similar run in two weeks time.
I have a choice now in two weeks time of doing a 8-10k time trial Saturday morning before work (plan has a race and I'm working) and then my last long run of 16 miles on Sunday or just doing the 16 earlier in the week and doing a 10k race on Sunday. I' m definitely leaning towards racing tbh - I've only race once since June and I could do with the practice. I'm a small bit raging that I missed Cork to Cobh this morning as well. I really like that race and would have done it as a long run or MP session if I was off. I'm really looking forward to the taper now, and it seems I've made it this far without the wheels coming off, but to repeat myself, I feel like I'm at the limit of overreaching and hopefully some of that good old supercompensation will kick in.
I'm still finding it hard to nail down what my MP should be. I'm very comfortable anywhere between 7:40 and 7:55. Maybe my A goal (well A* really) of 3:25 isn't ambitious enough, but I had an ambitious target of 3:30 last year. I gave it a rattle and the ran out of juice at 21 miles and badly so. I just want to run a respectable time without having to resort to run-walking for the last 5 miles.
This is one of my favourite pics from last year taken outside the RDS:
There will be no repeat of that this year.0 -
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Hey HBS,
Following up to your post on the DCM thread here, as I don't really know what I'm talking about
I think you're in good shape for 3:25 and could well do better. A well run marathon would be very satisfying for you (i.e. negative splits and not falling apart, atoning for last year!), so I'd put that ahead of going for 3:20. Your slow start plan sounds good to me - though I'd go even slower than 3:25 pace for the first 10k, as it's got the biggest climb of DCM. If everything goes great on the day, you get a solid negative split and pip the 3:20 pacers on the line
Did you end up buying that DCM pace spreadsheet?0 -
Hey HBS,
Following up to your post on the DCM thread here, as I don't really know what I'm talking about
I think you're in good shape for 3:25 and could well do better. A well run marathon would be very satisfying for you (i.e. negative splits and not falling apart, atoning for last year!), so I'd put that ahead of going for 3:20. Your slow start plan sounds good to me - though I'd go even slower than 3:25 pace for the first 10k, as it's got the biggest climb of DCM. If everything goes great on the day, you get a solid negative split and pip the 3:20 pacers on the line
Did you end up buying that DCM pace spreadsheet?
I did. Sent you a PM on that.0 -
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I was messing around with that spreadsheet tonight and I got he following proposed splits:Hey HBS,
Following up to your post on the DCM thread here, as I don't really know what I'm talking about
I think you're in good shape for 3:25 and could well do better. A well run marathon would be very satisfying for you (i.e. negative splits and not falling apart, atoning for last year!), so I'd put that ahead of going for 3:20. Your slow start plan sounds good to me - though I'd go even slower than 3:25 pace for the first 10k, as it's got the biggest climb of DCM. If everything goes great on the day, you get a solid negative split and pip the 3:20 pacers on the line
Did you end up buying that DCM pace spreadsheet?
8:01; 7:45; 7:54; 7:34; 8:05; 8:02; 7:39; 7:28; 7:28; 7:28; 7:35; 7:27; 7:39; 7:50; 7:29; 7:23; 7:29; 7:24; 7:26; 7:26; 7:34; 7:46; 7:30; 7:33; 7:34; 7:44; 0.2@7:35. Total 3:19:54
10k in 48:52, 1/2 in 1:40:56. 2nd 1/2 in 1:38:58. 2:58 negative split
Might be do-able, but some there's some fast miles in there. I'll have a think about it.0 -
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Hi HBS,
Just read through your entire log there.
For what it's worth I think you should stick to your original 'A' goal of 3:25. You've done all your MP training runs at that pace, so changing to a pace 10-15 seconds faster per mile at this stage and trying to maintain that for a full marathon may come as a major shock to the system. The time to experiment with this would have been during the training cycle. Trying it out for the first time on race day could end in disaster. Would you even be considering 3:20 if the calculators weren't suggesting it? Most people fail to hit McMillan/VDOT predictions for the marathon, because the predictions are based on race times at other distances so far removed from the marathon that they're just not accurate/relevant for all but the most experienced runners. From what I can see, your main issues to date have been with endurance, so it would be a shame to shoot for an optimistic target and end up getting a replica of the 2015 photo outside the RDS.
I'd suggest starting just ahead of the 3:30 pacers and gradually moving away from them by halfway. If you get there on 3:25 pace feeling good and confident you can hold a faster pace to the finish, by all means pick it up and run a negative split passing people all the way to Merrion Square. That would leave you with a really enjoyable experience and a time of 3:20-3:25. If you're not able to speed up, you'll still come home in 3:25-3:30 and hit your 'B' goal. Go out in 3:20 pace and it's
:20 or bust. My fear is it's more likely to be the latter, where 'bust' won't even be a PB. 0 -
Hi HBS,
Just read through your entire log there.
For what it's worth I think you should stick to your original 'A' goal of 3:25. You've done all your MP training runs at that pace, so changing to a pace 10-15 seconds faster per mile at this stage and trying to maintain that for a full marathon may come as a major shock to the system. The time to experiment with this would have been during the training cycle. Trying it out for the first time on race day could end in disaster. Would you even be considering 3:20 if the calculators weren't suggesting it? Most people fail to hit McMillan/VDOT predictions for the marathon, because the predictions are based on race times at other distances so far removed from the marathon that they're just not accurate/relevant for all but the most experienced runners. From what I can see, your main issues to date have been with endurance, so it would be a shame to shoot for an optimistic target and end up getting a replica of the 2015 photo outside the RDS.
I'd suggest starting just ahead of the 3:30 pacers and gradually moving away from them by halfway. If you get there on 3:25 pace feeling good and confident you can hold a faster pace to the finish, by all means pick it up and run a negative split passing people all the way to Merrion Square. That would leave you with a really enjoyable experience and a time of 3:20-3:25. If you're not able to speed up, you'll still come home in 3:25-3:30 and hit your 'B' goal. Go out in 3:20 pace and it's:20 or bust. My fear is it's more likely to be the latter, where 'bust' won't even be a PB.
That's my fear too really. Time for a reality check - McMillan gives 3:13 for me Half PB. It also gives 1:50:22 for 25k - PB is 1:50:36
VDOT gives 3:11 or 3:14 on two different sites. So round up to 3:15 - but it was a flat half, so 3:15 for a flat course. Add 5 minutes for Dublin's elevation so 3:20. Add another 5 for the stated endurance issues give 3:25. So maybe aim for a 1:42 half way split and push on from there to get between 3:20 and 3:25 or hold on for a 3:25 -3:30. Either way it's massive PB of nearly 8.5 minutes minimum. 3:25 makes sense
All my PBs (5k, 10k, 10 mile, half, 25k) from 25k down, all set this year line up pretty well with the calculators - although the 10k is a small bit out (42.01 with the calculators giving 41:12 - 41:29) - I suppose I though aiming for 3:20 wasn't stretching it. But this my be my last marathon for a while - that's where the temptation comes in to try and push it a bit more. I'm going to print off that picture and hang it up everywhere to remind me of what happened the last time!0 -
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