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Snobbery in education.

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    #572
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Mate I think a trip to Specsavers is needed. The poster didn't say that.


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    #573
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,880 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I would be curious if this is also by department and course (dependent on the people in the department and I would reckon by how specific a course is but also classmates).

    As it happens I do know someone who was drunk as a skunk in Trinity and got a first. However he did do the work as he had good notes he wrote himself and helped a lot of people with the homework. I just have no idea when he did the work without the use of a time machine. Guess it shows people work in different ways and times so it can sometimes be hidden that they are doing work. Sorry for the off topic ramble but Permabear just reminded me of someone.


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    #574
    gutenberg
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭gutenberg


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I agree in general. I've experienced it myself in both the universities I've attended. There was just an expectation that you would do the work. I mean, it wasn't like not doing it would mean you'd be looked down upon or anything like that, but people would have been simply a bit puzzled as to why you wouldn't.

    The bit in bold seems to be exactly the issue many of the teacher-training colleges have. These kids come straight from school, and despite being relatively high-scorers (after all teaching is 450+ points), they seem to totally lack any independence and are completely unwilling to do any kind of independent work, research etc. Even in the classes, basic respect is lacking: the students use their phones, chat and so on, with the lecturer having to act like the teacher of first years in secondary school, asking them to put phones away and stop talking! I don't know if it's an issue specifically with teacher training & the way the learning is conducted, but the anecdotal evidence I've heard is that those colleges are especially bad for it.


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    #575
    enzo roco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭enzo roco


    Maireadio wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Slightly moving away from your point here, but I was utterly shocked to hear that a girl from my year in school is teaching secondary maths now, at our old school. Why am I shocked? Because she didn't do Honours Maths for the Leaving Cert. I know because I was in the very small Honours Maths class (the only one in the year) and she wasn't in it. How does this happen?

    I know the school maths curriculum isn't perfect but surely somebody with an interest in maths would study the subject to the highest level anyway, flaws and all? I just cannot believe we have an education system that allows such mediocrity. What if she gets a very bright student in her class and they ask her to go more in-depth on a particular concept? Likelihood is, she won't be able to explain it to them, and the student could then lose interest.[/quote]
    Add your reply here.
    Maireadio wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Slightly moving away from your point here, but I was utterly shocked to hear that a girl from my year in school is teaching secondary maths now, at our old school. Why am I shocked? Because she didn't do Honours Maths for the Leaving Cert. I know because I was in the very small Honours Maths class (the only one in the year) and she wasn't in it. How does this happen?

    I know the school maths curriculum isn't perfect but surely somebody with an interest in maths would study the subject to the highest level anyway, flaws and all? I just cannot believe we have an education system that allows such mediocrity. What if she gets a very bright student in her class and they ask her to go more in-depth on a particular concept? Likelihood is, she won't be able to explain it to them, and the student could then lose interest.[/quote]
    Add your reply here.


    Hold on there. Just because she wasn't an honours student when she was 16/17/18 doesn't mean she can't go back to school/repeat...
    You didn't mention what degree she has. Do you know anything about her since she did her leaving cert???
    Just because people make mistakes in their teenage years doesn't mean they can't make up for them when they're adults...

    I did rubbish in my leaving, because I was immature, doing too much sport, and I was also lazy. But I'm an adult now. My education didn't finish at 18. Yourself and permabear seem to think it does. Nonsense.


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    #576
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #577
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,027 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Christy42 wrote: »
    As it happens I do know someone who was drunk as a skunk in Trinity and got a first. However he did do the work as he had good notes he wrote himself and helped a lot of people with the homework. I just have no idea when he did the work without the use of a time machine.
    He probably closed his boards.ie account.


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    #578
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Actually Silverharp one of my favourite fields is philosophy of science! It is very much its own field and extremely important in developing the scientific method. It details the process of discovery amongst other things.

    it sounds interesting , I tend to think you guys are are just reduced to being grant beggars and its any port in a storm.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #579
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    when you think about it , many people do a specific college degree and the first few years of their job at any rate might only leverage off their first year material and even then only a fraction of it.

    University has become a nursery and a finishing school for some students and I'd prefer to see plenty of courses dropped and let kids study through apprenticeships and lessen the degree mill approach

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #580
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    silverharp wrote: »
    it sounds interesting , I tend to think you guys are are just reduced to being grant beggars and its any port in a storm.

    We are most of the time!


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    #581
    enzo roco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭enzo roco


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    Well of course, common sense doesnt always prevail. I agree about Irish, but the department want their primary teachers more or less fluent in gaeilge.
    And Irish gets the same amount of time as english and Maths, ridiculous.

    Glad you never said education finishes at 18.
    But just because a secondary school teacher did ordinary level in her leaving cert., doesnt mean she cant teach honours level maths, once she has the qualifications. Many things can change after the leaving cert.


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    #582
    edbrez
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 214 ✭✭edbrez


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    One example Lenny Abrahamson, has a 1st in philosophy. Don't see any of our 3rd level colleges producing film graduates with his talent?


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    #583
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I think the take home message here is that everyone is snobby about something


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    #584
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #585
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    When it comes to primary school anyone who managed to finish secondary school would have a level of maths required. No need for physics, maths and enginer phds to teach children how to add.

    There is a stupid amount of weight towards Irish though.


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    #586
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The curriculum for science at second level is a joke.


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    #587
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    The curriculum for science at second level is a joke.

    Completely agree - way too dumbed down.


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    #588
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #589
    Grab All Association
    Registered Users Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭Grab All Association




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    #590
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Only had a chance for a quick look through it but I am not saying anyone can teach it, knowing about a subject and the ability to teach it are different things.

    A course in how to teach maths to primary school children would be unlikely to require advanced techniques meaning a D3 in ordinary level is sufficient.


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    #591
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    A course in how to teach maths to primary school children would be unlikely to require advanced techniques meaning a D3 in ordinary level is sufficient.

    But what is a D3 in ordinary maths really saying about the mathematical ability of the teacher-in-waiting though?


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    #592
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    It doesn't say they love it that's for sure.


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    #593
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
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    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Not just for maths, but for any subject, how can you possibly meaningfully explain a concept without have an good understanding of it? Just because you know how to do long division doesn't mean you can explain it in an effective way. And being good at writing leaving cert essays doesn't mean you'll be a good English teacher. And teaching isn't just about teaching a discrete concept on it's own, you're teaching in a logical sequence, one thing leading on to the next. I'd be concerned by any teacher teaching a subject they were only able to get a D3 in ordinary level LC.


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    #594
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #595
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    enzo roco wrote: »
    Hold on there. Just because she wasn't an honours student when she was 16/17/18 doesn't mean she can't go back to school/repeat...
    You didn't mention what degree she has. Do you know anything about her since she did her leaving cert???
    Just because people make mistakes in their teenage years doesn't mean they can't make up for them when they're adults...

    I did rubbish in my leaving, because I was immature, doing too much sport, and I was also lazy. But I'm an adult now. My education didn't finish at 18. Yourself and permabear seem to think it does. Nonsense.

    You know, you could be right, enzo. But if I was a betting woman, I'd put money on me being right! :pac: She wasn't the worst student, that's the thing. She was diligent enough. So maths seemingly just wasn't her thing. I think she did an Irish degree though I'm not 100% sure on that.


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    #596
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yes, a person teaching a subject shouldn't just know the subject to that level, they need to have a deep understanding way, way beyond that.

    I have a bachelors degree in science and I personally don't feel my depth of knowledge is good enough to teach the subject.


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    #597
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Just because a person did ordinary level it doesn't mean that they would be anxious about teaching it. Maybe I just don't find HL as impressive as others here seem to do. I did HL and it was just learning new methods that wouldn't come up at primary level, nothing there would have helped me teach the subject better. If people required a good understanding we would require degrees in the topics but that would be impractical when 1 teacher has to cover all subjects. HL had 2 papers to get through and there was no taking the time if a person was struggling with a topic, you got it the first time or dropped down.

    Here is my views in a way you'll understand. You want a Harvard graduate level of person while arguing the person needs to go to Trinity over UCC. I'm sure the Harvard graduate would raise an eyebrow as the talk about 2 universities he/she has never heard of.


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    #598
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I wouldn't take much from a person's secondary level education at all. Tell me how they do in a maths degree.


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    #599
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    It is important the teachers have an interest in and an enthusiasm for maths, in order to convey that to children. A D at ordinary level in the LC implies someone with little interest in that subject as they must have done better in other subjects.


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    #600
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #601
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Last time I checked the HL course did not include a section on how to teach mathematical concepts. In future I'll remember only you are allowed to be dismissive.


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