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Snobbery in education.

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    #542
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Slightly moving away from your point here, but I was utterly shocked to hear that a girl from my year in school is teaching secondary maths now, at our old school. Why am I shocked? Because she didn't do Honours Maths for the Leaving Cert. I know because I was in the very small Honours Maths class (the only one in the year) and she wasn't in it. How does this happen?

    I know the school maths curriculum isn't perfect but surely somebody with an interest in maths would study the subject to the highest level anyway, flaws and all? I just cannot believe we have an education system that allows such mediocrity. What if she gets a very bright student in her class and they ask her to go more in-depth on a particular concept? Likelihood is, she won't be able to explain it to them, and the student could then lose interest.


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    #543
    Scuid Mhór
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Scuid Mhór


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well OK I'll give you a chance can you tell me the most difficult concepts in the arts?

    :rolleyes:

    You should attempt to blitz the western canon of philosophy, within three days your gross misconceptions pertaining to the alleged difficulty of the arts should be evident to you.


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    #544
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Scuid Mhór wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    You should attempt to blitz the western canon of philosophy, within three days your gross misconceptions pertaining to the alleged difficulty of the arts should be evident to you.

    Like religion though, and despite similarly having a huge volume of writing and scholarly work, has philosophy not now been made a redundant and empty field by science ? Its complex and convoluted concepts really just castles in the air, leading nowhere, and while worthy of some historical preservation like latin for example, difficulty built on nothing is really just nothing, or difficulty for difficulty's sake ?


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    #545
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Like religion though, and despite similarly having a huge volume of writing and scholarly work, has philosophy not now been made a redundant and empty field by science ?

    The two have coexisted for centuries and centuries.

    Philosophy greatly aids logical and critical thinking.


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    #546
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Closest I came to experiencing this was when I moved colleges for a postgrad. When asked where I had done my undergrad I answered only to receive the reply "Well I guess they aren't all that snobbish."

    Didn't talk to that group of people much after that. Feeling superior about how people from your college don't feel superior to others based on their college is an interesting line of thinking.

    As for arts degrees - well everything in moderation. There is no way we need that many philosophers/historians given how many mathematicians/biologists etc. we have. Sure I get the point of having some of them but I feel the numbers of people in those courses has more to do with the well earned reputation of arts courses being hard to fail (or get a first for that matter since so much is a matter of opinion the lecturer can simply not give you a first) than Ireland really having hundreds of people every year deeply interested in philosophy.


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    #547
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    Christy42 wrote: »
    As for arts degrees - well everything in moderation. There is no way we need that many philosophers/historians given how many mathematicians/biologists etc. we have. Sure I get the point of having some of them but I feel the numbers of people in those courses has more to do with the well earned reputation of arts courses being hard to fail (or get a first for that matter since so much is a matter of opinion the lecturer can simply not give you a first) than Ireland really having hundreds of people every year deeply interested in philosophy.

    Believe me, there are plenty of 'just because' science students too, who then spend the rest of their days testing water samples. Or not using their science degree at all.


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    #548
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #549
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #550
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    You see I agree regarding teachers. Something does need to be done about that. In UCD and TCD science is a four year degree. You can leave after your third year with a general science degree (your third year is the first year of specialisation in a given area e.g neuroscience). A lot of people leave after their third science year, do a training course and then go on to be teachers. It irks me that people who can't be bothered to complete the most difficult year of the degree go onto to be science teachers.


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    #551
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Permabear wrote: »
    You're assuming that philosophy graduates want to be "philosophers," whatever that means, when in fact they wind up working in numerous areas. Philosophy teaches rigorous analytical thinking, which is a highly transferable skill. It's notable that philosophy graduates significantly out-earn other arts graduates and can be successful in areas such as business and finance. E.g., former HP CEO Carly Fiorina, investor Carl Icahn, financier George Soros, Paypal co-founder Peter Thiel, and Overstock.com founder Patrick Byrne all have philosophy degrees. (Soros also has a Masters in philosophy.)

    They still rank pretty low in terms of all majors which makes me wonder about the other humanity degrees TBH.

    Every year, the company surveys 1.4 million college alumni from over a thousand U.S. colleges on their employment and income. Although philosophy majors rank 75th on PayScale’s overall list of majors at mid-career earnings, it’s the top humanities bachelors degree in their ranking—from early career all the way to later career.


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    #552
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    philosophy stands out I believe as a degree taken by people with very high IQ's (the good ones anyway :) ) somewhere nudging the high 120's which would edge them ahead of fields like IT and Engineering. Seems reasonable that it would produce exceptional individuals

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #553
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #554
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #555
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I linked a section from your article pertaining to the earning power of degrees and somewhere in that you picked out intellectual worth. You really need to stop seeing things as a personal attack.


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    #556
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #557
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    that almost needs its own thread, its funny because the weight of political and social discourse appears almost universally dominated by "blank slate " ideas which specifically seek to ignore biological motivations and underpinnings.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #558
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    silverharp wrote: »
    that almost needs its own thread, its funny because the weight of political and social discourse appears almost universally dominated by "blank slate " ideas which specifically seek to ignore biological motivations and underpinnings.

    It's certainly true that philosophy underpins a lot of scientific thinking.


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    #559
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'd imagine it gets a lot of bad press, I must say if one of my kids said they would like to study it I would view it with scepticism because it would be difficult to see the end goal. Or that when they graduate employers might be dismissive

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #560
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You see I agree regarding teachers. Something does need to be done about that. In UCD and TCD science is a four year degree. You can leave after your third year with a general science degree (your third year is the first year of specialisation in a given area e.g neuroscience). A lot of people leave after their third science year, do a training course and then go on to be teachers. It irks me that people who can't be bothered to complete the most difficult year of the degree go onto to be science teachers.

    Yes, it's crazy. That means they get their teacher qualification without doing a dissertation in the subject they teach.

    I just cannot fathom how someone can teach a secondary subject when they haven't studied it to the highest school level and beyond themselves.

    And do not get me started on some of the people I know who are primary school teachers now. One I know post Facebook status updates filled with spelling and grammar errors and text speak.

    Then moving away from teaching, a guy I know from school was a "journalist" on a popular Irish clickbait, content-gathering website. He did pass English for the JUNIOR CERT. Not even the leaving cert, the junior cert! He did also contribute occasionally to an Irish magazine. How does this happen?


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    #561
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Maireadio wrote: »
    Yes, it's crazy. That means they get their teacher qualification without doing a dissertation in the subject they teach.

    I just cannot fathom how someone can teach a secondary subject when they haven't studied it to the highest school level and beyond themselves.

    And do not get me started on some of the people I know who are primary school teachers now. One I know post Facebook status updates filled with spelling and grammer errors and text speak.

    Then moving away from teaching, a guy I know from school was a "journalist" on a popular Irish clickbait, content-gathering website. He did pass English for the JUNIOR CERT. Not even the leaving cert, the junior cert! He did also contribute occasionally to an Irish magazine. How does this happen?

    It also means they are teaching a subject with about as much passion as someone who couldn't be bothered to finish an undergraduate degree in their subject.


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    #562
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    It's certainly true that philosophy underpins a lot of scientific thinking.

    are they fields that can be combined in college , it seems like nobody would do Phil degree and then break out into science?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #563
    Maireadio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Maireadio


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    It also means they are teaching a subject with about as much passion as someone who couldn't be bothered to finish an undergraduate degree in their subject.

    Lollers, for all my high-horsery, I managed to spell 'grammar' as 'grammer' in the first draught of that post.


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    #564
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    silverharp wrote: »
    are they fields that can be combined in college , it seems like nobody would do Phil degree and then break out into science?

    Actually Silverharp one of my favourite fields is philosophy of science! It is very much its own field and extremely important in developing the scientific method. It details the process of discovery amongst other things.


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    #565
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I argued against the numbers taking up the course. Sure you can point to examples from any degree or even not finishing a degree (omg Bill Gates dropped out and became a Billionaire, I should drop out too). I agree we need philosophers (or people who have done some philosophy and history). I would argue about the sheer numbers of people with degrees in these subjects.

    A few examples shows some smart people chose that degree, not that it seriously helped them or that it helped the majority (though I don't argue that it helps some). It seems some people pick arts because we look down on trades here, they hate maths and feel it will be easier to get a 2.2 in.

    Unless someone had shown an interest in the subject before hand I would seriously question someone's sudden interest in philosophy at Cao time.

    Side point: philosophy should be added to the secondary school curriculum.


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    #566
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #567
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #568
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Christy42 wrote: »

    Side point: philosophy should be added to the secondary school curriculum.

    Thankfully it will be. Long overdue.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/o-sullivan-signals-philosophy-to-be-taught-in-schools-1.2050759


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    #569
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Haven't said any of the things you arguing against.


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    #570
    gutenberg
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭gutenberg


    Maireadio wrote: »
    Yes, it's crazy. That means they get their teacher qualification without doing a dissertation in the subject they teach.

    I just cannot fathom how someone can teach a secondary subject when they haven't studied it to the highest school level and beyond themselves.

    And do not get me started on some of the people I know who are primary school teachers now. One I know post Facebook status updates filled with spelling and grammar errors and text speak.

    Then moving away from teaching, a guy I know from school was a "journalist" on a popular Irish clickbait, content-gathering website. He did pass English for the JUNIOR CERT. Not even the leaving cert, the junior cert! He did also contribute occasionally to an Irish magazine. How does this happen?

    I have a couple of friends involved in lecturing at the teacher-training colleges. The stories they tell about the general standard of students are frightening, and really make you wonder about who we're entrusting with teaching kids. Of course, as Permabear mentioned, I'm sure there's variation in terms of motivation etc. across the student body. But the general standard and work ethnic seems to be shocking at some of the colleges.


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    #571
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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