Snobbery in education.

pragmatic1

Has anyone encountered much snobbery when it comes to education?

I have both in my work and personal life. I got my degree at an IT while one of my colleagues got hers at NUIG. She used to make little comments inferring that University degrees were much better than those attained at ITs.

In one sense I think she has a point as degrees earned from universities tend to look better on paper for prospective employers, but the actual content of the course isn't all that different I don't think.

Another form of snobbery in relation to education I encountered was from my brother, who left formal education at a fairly young age. He was of the mind that students were essentially useless and had very little common sense. I think his snobbery came from some insecurity he had about his own education.

There's always been a rivalry between GMIT and NUIG. The whole thing is a load of toss.

brevity

Nope.

The Backwards Man

There's an ancient Middle English/Low German word to describe individuals who indulge in such snobbery.


Knobs.

silverharp

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Has anyone encountered much snobbery when it comes to education?

I have both in my work and personal life. I got my degree at an IT while one of my colleagues got hers at NUIG. She used to make little comments inferring that University degrees were much better than those attained at ITs.

In one sense I think she has a point as degrees earned from universities tend to look better on paper for prospective employers, but the actual content of the course isn't all that different I don't think.

Another form of snobbery in relation to education I encountered was from my brother, who left formal education at a fairly young age. He was of the mind that students were essentially useless and had very little common sense. I think his snobbery came from some insecurity he had about his own education.

they both sound like inferiority complex. In the first case your colleague's nose is out of joint because they didn't have enough points to go to one of the Dublin universities :pac: and the second case is rubbishing something they weren't in a position to do.
Life is too short , a few years out of college and its your reputation and what you have done that counts.

donegaLroad

I was at school with a guy who gained his degree in computer science from a local IT. He went on to become one of the team who developed Windows 95.

I'm sure Microsoft couldn't give a toss where he got his qualifications from so long as he could deliver. In fact all the tech companies are like that, or am I wrong?

North America must be the world leaders in education snobbery, with England close runners up.

NoCrackHaving

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Has anyone encountered much snobbery when it comes to education?

I have both in my work and personal life. I got my degree at an IT while one of my colleagues got hers at NUIG. She used to make little comments inferring that University degrees were much better than those attained at ITs.

In one sense I think she has a point as degrees earned from universities tend to look better on paper for prospective employers, but the actual content of the course isn't all that different I don't think.

Another form of snobbery in relation to education I encountered was from my brother, who left formal education at a fairly young age. He was of the mind that students were essentially useless and had very little common sense. I think his snobbery came from some insecurity he had about his own education.

I do think the content or difficulty of courses can vary between universities/IT's etc. For example is the course content and student ability of a Chemistry degree at UCD going to be the same as one at Imperial or one at Cambridge or one at MIT or one at Stanford? I genuinely don't believe it is. It's not snobbery but is a recognition that not all degrees are necessarily of a similar standard of difficulty even if they're in the same subject.

DEFTLEFTHAND

In fairness our uni's all rank poorly on the global ladder. I'd an embarrassing experience once, I started boasting to the wrong people, the next thing league tables were being produced. I was left red faced.

pragmatic1

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Has anyone encountered much snobbery when it comes to education?

I have both in my work and personal life. I got my degree at an IT while one of my colleagues got hers at NUIG. She used to make little comments inferring that University degrees were much better than those attained at ITs.

In one sense I think she has a point as degrees earned from universities tend to look better on paper for prospective employers, but the actual content of the course isn't all that different I don't think.

Another form of snobbery in relation to education I encountered was from my brother, who left formal education at a fairly young age. He was of the mind that students were essentially useless and had very little common sense. I think his snobbery came from some insecurity he had about his own education.

Not all degrees are equal, but most are. She obviously wants to think hers is superior but I doubt there's breathing room between the two.

I think you're spot on about your brothers problem. I've met lots of people who like to imply that education means nothing, when the lack of it obviously means a lot to them in a negative way or they wouldn't be so fast to put it down.

pragmatic1

silverharp wrote: »

they both sound like inferiority complex. In the first case your colleague's nose is out of joint because they didn't have enough points to go to one of the Dublin universities :pac: and the second case is rubbishing something they weren't in a position to do.
Life is too short , a few years out of college and its your reputation and what you have done that counts.

Yeah I agree. Funny thing is my brother is now in University as a mature student. Must get on to him about his 180.

Work experience is definitely more important as you progress with your job,but I think if all things were considered equal except that one candidate went to an IT while another went to a University, employers would be more likely to offer a position to University educated person.

freshpopcorn

It happens and a lot of it is just bickering amongst people.
I'm in honours level maths and your in ordinary.
I'm in the C.B.S and your in the Community college.
I'm in a University and your only in an IT.

Third level isn't for everyone tough and some people just want to start working when there finished school.

maudgonner

In both cases it's a massive generalisation and those are rarely of much value.

Some ITs are very good for certain disciplines, some unis are very good for others. Some students are useless, most are not.

As a counterpoint to your NUIG colleague, my brother did an engineering diploma in an IT then went on to complete his degree in a university. Always maintains that the IT taught him far more valuable practical skills and was a much better learning environment.

But I went to UCG(;)) and found it a great place to study.

RedemptionZ

I find it pretty ridiculous in Ireland when people have that kind of snobbery. Commerce in UCD or Business Management in DIT are both probably equally impressive (or unimpressive as it may be) in an international context. We don't have any universities with a reputation close to the Ivy Leagues or the Oxfords and Cambridges.

Remember hearing from a friend of a friend of a guy from UCD doing engineering, typical academic overachiever, maximum points in the LC, didn't drink or go out and top of his college class. Anyway he applied for year abroad, got his first choice obviously and had a year in UCLA. UCLA is apparently very high ranked in engineering and the standard of work expected as well as the workload was so much higher. He went from top of the class to the bottom 10%.

Ruu

Never happened, only in my head. I had to drop down to ordinary level Maths, did higher in everything else. No one gave a toss.

brummytom

I went to the shit University (ex-Poly) in Manchester - MMU - which is on the same road as the well-respected University of Manchester.

It was quite common to hear this chant from UoM **** on the bus:
"Your dad works for my dad, your dad works for my dad, la la la la HEY! la la la la" Repeat ad nauseum.

pragmatic1

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I find it pretty ridiculous in Ireland when people have that kind of snobbery. Commerce in UCD or Business Management in DIT are both probably equally impressive (or unimpressive as it may be) in an international context. We don't have any universities with a reputation close to the Ivy Leagues or the Oxfords and Cambridges.

Remember hearing from a friend of a friend of a guy from UCD doing engineering, typical academic overachiever, maximum points in the LC, didn't drink or go out and top of his college class. Anyway he applied for year abroad, got his first choice obviously and had a year in UCLA. UCLA is apparently very high ranked in engineering and the standard of work expected as well as the workload was so much higher. He went from top of the class to the bottom 10%.

Yeah I've heard that the workload in US Universities is much larger than those in European Universities.

It was an English lad who went to Sheffield university, which is a fairly good University, that told me. He spent a year in the US and said it was much more difficult.

NiallBoo

brummytom wrote: »

I went to the shit University (ex-Poly) in Manchester - MMU - which is on the same road as the well-respected University of Manchester.

It was quite common to hear this chant from UoM **** on the bus:
"Your dad works for my dad, your dad works for my dad, la la la la HEY! la la la la" Repeat ad nauseum.

In just surprised you'd hear that out of anyone old enough for third level education.

NapoleonInRags

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

In fairness our uni's all rank poorly on the global ladder. I'd an embarrassing experience once, I started boasting to the wrong people, the next thing league tables were being produced. I was left red faced.

University league tables are a load of nonsense,

Icemancometh

I was at a wedding recently where I was the only person at the table not to have a Masters or a PhD and got teased over that. But that was friends in a relaxed environment making bad jokes. A work environment is completely different and this only reflects badly on your colleague, not you.

experiMental

I was judged for my mistakes at work, and not the university that I went to. I worked with one guy who was a college drop-out and he gave me a master class on using something that I was not familiar with. I was cool with that.

But then again, I work in tech, which is quite an egalitarian environment.

One eyed Jack

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Yeah I agree. Funny thing is my brother is now in University as a mature student. Must get on to him about his 180.

Ahh why would you do that? That's only perpetuating the education snobbery you're complaining about! Why not encourage and support him instead if that's not something you don't do already? The most important thing to you should be that he did do a 180 and doesn't need to be reminded of his previous mistakes.

Work experience is definitely more important as you progress with your job,but I think if all things were considered equal except that one candidate went to an IT while another went to a University, employers would be more likely to offer a position to University educated person.

That'd all depend upon the employer and what they're looking for in the role for which they're looking to employ someone. Your assumption is based upon your own bias and education / employment snobbery tbh.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh why would you do that? That's only perpetuating the education snobbery you're complaining about! Why not encourage and support him instead if that's not something you don't do already?

He means his about-turn 180.

Not the points in his Leaving.

darkpagandeath

A place makes your certified Qualification more or less valid ?

kowloon

Arsehole are always looking for a way to frame themselves as being better than others, education is another tool in the box.

mzungu

NiallBoo wrote: »

In just surprised you'd hear that out of anyone old enough for third level education.

I'm not. There are some students that act like complete and utter numpties.

One eyed Jack

Candie wrote: »

He means his about-turn 180.

Not the points in his Leaving.

No I understand he meant the turnaround change in his brothers attitude to education. I just think it's unnecessary to be getting onto him about it is all, particularly when the OP is trying to make a point about educational snobbery themselves.

genericguy

I went to a university, but as a manager who hires people I personally think that IT graduates come out with more practical experience and cop on than those from universities.

pragmatic1

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh why would you do that? That's only perpetuating the education snobbery you're complaining about! Why not encourage and support him instead if that's not something you don't do already? The most important thing to you should be that he did do a 180 and doesn't need to be reminded of his previous mistakes.


It'll be a gentle ribbing as he's my brother and we wind each other up all the time.


That'd all depend upon the employer and what they're looking for in the role for which they're looking to employ someone. Your assumption is based upon your own bias and education / employment snobbery tbh.

I'll wind up my brother as he's my brother and we have a laugh together. I'm actually very proud of him.

Notice that I mentioned that "all things being considered equal". FFS.

benjamin d

NapoleonInRags wrote: »

University league tables are a load of nonsense,

Have to disagree with this, they're a good general guide.
I went to NUIG, fwiw.

pragmatic1

genericguy wrote: »

I went to a university, but as a manager who hires people I personally think that IT graduates come out with more practical experience and cop on than those from universities.

Yeah it probably depends on your degree. I've heard that ITs can be favoured for more technical disciplines as there's more emphasis placed on the practical application of the course. Half of my own degree was spent doing laboratory practicals.

One eyed Jack

genericguy wrote: »

I went to a university, but as a manager who hires people I personally think that IT graduates come out with more practical experience and cop on than those from universities.

Personally, I think whether it's an IT or a Uni is only one aspect of a person's potential employment prospects. The amount of times I've met people with PhD's who are unemployed, it doesn't surprise me any more tbh. Someone just asked me there about interviewing techniques and the modern behaviour/competency based technique is recommended simply because it's easier to add a skill than change an attitude.

One eyed Jack

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I'll wind up my brother as he's my brother and we have a laugh together. I'm actually very proud of him.

Notice that I mentioned that "all things being considered equal". FFS.

Notice that I mentioned "encourage and support him if that's not something you do already"?

NapoleonInRags

benjamin d wrote: »

Have to disagree with this, they're a good general guide.
I went to NUIG, fwiw.

They don't take account of the quality of curricula or of teaching. So from a prospective student point of view they are largely meaningless.

PLL

Regarding IT vs. University - read exam papers for the same modules from each college. Then you'll fully understand why IT's have the rep they do. The exams are easier to pass because there isn't as much critical thinking required. Just cram the info into your head and recite it straight back out

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No I understand he meant the turnaround change in his brothers attitude to education. I just think it's unnecessary to be getting onto him about it is all, particularly when the OP is trying to make a point about educational snobbery themselves.

If he was an acquaintance I'd agree.

However, siblings have carte blanche to rip into one another from the cradle to the grave, it's a perk of the position. He should let his brother have it to continue this noble tradition.

Iwasfrozen

Even if it's the exact same course, and usually they aren't, universities tend to have command higher entrance points.

That alone means they should be worth more to an employer.

I've been to an IT and University and found a massive difference. Then again I found a massive difference between universities with the better one noticeably getting worse while I was there.

For tech and the like it's not particularly important though. The whole point of ITs is to get someone ready for employment, or at least moreso than in the usual idea of universities. With tech jobs it's all about getting started then progressing. Tech jobs aren't for life, generally they require continual upskilling or almost starting over. Getting through an IT course is enough to show you can pick it up, then it's all about how much you want to do to improve yourself long-term.

YFlyer

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Yeah I've heard that the workload in US Universities is much larger than those in European Universities.

That be the Chinese and Indian students setting the standards.

steddyeddy

YFlyer wrote: »

That be the Chinese and Indian students setting the standards.

The biggest myth ever.

SEPT 23 1989

Get a good trade and you can bypass all this nonsense

PLL

PLL wrote: »

Regarding IT vs. University - read exam papers for the same modules from each college. Then you'll fully understand why IT's have the rep they do. The exams are easier to pass because there isn't as much critical thinking required. Just cram the info into your head and recite it straight back out

Have to agree. My mate was in 3rd year of a level 7, one more year would give him a level 8. It was an area I didn't study in but there were 2 papers I saw that I could've passed there and then.

YFlyer

steddyeddy wrote: »

The biggest myth ever.

I meant for PhD programmes.

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Get a good trade and you can bypass all this nonsense

Aye, the lads finishing about 8 years ago have all enjoyed the fruits of those labours.

steddyeddy

YFlyer wrote: »

I meant for PhD programmes.

So the Chinese and Indians dominate science say?

YFlyer

steddyeddy wrote: »

So the Chinese and Indians dominate science say?

They dominate science education in the US.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-china-and-india-love-us-universities/

pragmatic1

steddyeddy wrote: »

The biggest myth ever.

Yep. I have found Germans to be very hard working and intelligent though.

Iwasfrozen

Can we all stop using the word "science" the word is very broad and clearly means different things to different people in this thread.

It would be easier to just name the field(s) and discuss that / them.

TG1

I have a 1h degree from an IT and a 1h degree from a university. The second was genuinely much harder earned. It might have just been the particular courses but I found the difficulty level was very different.

I don't know why people get so hung up on it though, I now recruit on a regular basis and I don't judge a candidate based on where they studied.

Aongus Von Bismarck

Of course there is a difference between courses and educational institutes. A degree from Trinity will almost certainly be of a higher standard that a degree in Graphic Design and Lawnmower Maintenance from some obscure IT in a small town in the provinces. That's not snobbery, that's fact.

I have an extremely well regarded MBA. I got onto this programme by having a 1st from Trinity alongside the required work experience. This in turn opened up the doors that allowed me to have the career I now have. I wouldn't have the job (or indeed the view) I now have if I had taken the easy option of arsing around getting a 3rd rate MBA from Smurfit Business School in UCD.

steddyeddy

YFlyer wrote: »

They dominate science education in the US.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-china-and-india-love-us-universities/

That's an opinion piece about the near bulk of American PhDs being made up or non Americans. Is there anything in there about Chinese and Indian contributions to science?

Permabear

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