Snobbery in education.

Avatar MIA

steddyeddy wrote: »

We can agree to disagree

No, in relation to the bold element that was a statement of fact. :P

Maireadio

steddyeddy wrote: »

The concepts.

That can't be a serious response. Don't you realise how silly that sounds?

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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Different disciplines require different attributes for success which is fortunate given how diverse people are.

Permabear

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steddyeddy

Maireadio wrote: »

That can't be a serious response. Don't you realise how silly that sounds?

If you find concepts in the arts more difficult well more power to you.

steddyeddy

Avatar MIA wrote: »

No, in relation to the bold element that was a statement of fact. :P

Then we have to disagree on what a fact is.

Maireadio

steddyeddy wrote: »

If you find concepts in the arts more difficult well more power to you.

Your posts are incredibly obdurate and childish.

Permabear

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steddyeddy

Maireadio wrote: »

Your posts are incredibly obdurate and childish.

Well what can I do if we both disagree?

Maireadio

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well what can I do if we both disagree?

There's no problem with disagreement. But you need to back up your assertions, which you haven't yet done. Everybody needs good reasons to hold the viewpoints they do. If you don't have any good reasons, then you are the one who comes across with a chip on your shoulder.

steddyeddy

Maireadio wrote: »

There's no problem with disagreement. But you need to back up your assertions, which you haven't yet done. Everybody needs good reasons to hold the viewpoints they do. If you don't have any good reasons, then you are the one who comes across with a chip on your shoulder.

Well OK I'll give you a chance can you tell me the most difficult concepts in the arts?

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

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As I say dude If you can't take it don't give it.

Maireadio

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well OK I'll give you a chance can you tell me the most difficult concepts in the arts?

I can answer that, but you are the one who made the claim so the burden of proof is on you. What's the problem? If you are so sure, then answering the question shouldn't be hard, right?

steddyeddy

Yea no problem. I'll have a look for a few of the most difficult concepts I had to learn.

Then you can answer.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

In science they pick the person not the person's alma mater.

The problem with the prestige selection theory is that it assumes a primary variable dependent only on institution and not

A: how much work the student put into their coursework
B: how much self directed learning the student is engaged in
C: the student's ability to fit in with the current group
how the student's own research and interests fit to the group
E: the student's capacity for problem solving

Now if I had someone apply for a PhD or interview with us I wouldn't be a very good scientist if I assumed. Assumption based on one variable I.E institution is assuming you need all you need to know about the student based is snobbery and self destructive snobbery at that. In other words it doesn't really happen. I expect the prestige factor is more important in finance regarding connections.

One of the most recent post docs in the American facility I work in came from a polytechnic in the UK. He was second author on a paper (I suspect he should have been first) on a paper which has a high impact factor in biofuels. He was interested in the area, fit the group and very importantly didn't rely on things like prestige factor in place of talent.

By Science do you just mean the science related academia/research sector? I would hope it is the same for non-science academia/research sectors. Talent, the thirst for learning and potential should triumph everything else.

But then I looked at the ERSI website and every researcher (out of approx. 30) has an undergrad from a University (TCD featured a lot). Not one of them went to an IT. Then again, the Universities are stronger at social sciences/economics so is this any surprise? I also looked at the Science Foundation Ireland website and found out that 18 out of the 19 scientific staff went to University, with one going to an IT. A quick glance at the top staff at the UK's Babraham Institute (life-sciences research) shows they too studied at universities.

Moving on to private sector/industry science, are you saying that the likes of PFizer, GSK, etc. don't favour graduates of certain courses (and thereby certain universities)?

I really don't know why the Government don't hurry up and merge the IT's and make maybe 3 or 4 new universities in the process. There are far too many higher education institutions in the country leading to duplication and less funds to establish truly world class institutions. There are ITs in Galway/Mayo, Sligo and Letterkenny, all quite near each other and all offer engineering. Why not turn these into one bigger engineering school that can compete for the best academics and more funding?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I really don't know why the Government don't hurry up and merge the IT's and make maybe 3 or 4 new universities in the process. There are far too many higher education institutions in the country leading to duplication and less funds to establish truly world class institutions. There are ITs in Galway/Mayo, Sligo and Letterkenny, all quite near each other and all offer engineering. Why not turn these into one bigger engineering school that can compete for the best academics and more funding?

It is 250kms from Galway to Letterkenny - you could use the same logic to merge DIT and CIT

Maireadio

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yea no problem. I'll have a look for a few of the most difficult concepts I had to learn.

Then you can answer.

You are also going to need to talk about the arts concepts you are well read on, as you made a comparison.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

It is 250kms from Galway to Letterkenny - you could use the same logic to merge DIT and CIT

If they turned these three ITs into something like the University of the Northwest University/University of Connaught, they could put the main campus in Sligo with maybe a satellite campus in Letterkenny, 112km away. Galway would still have NUIG.

maudgonner

Deleted User wrote: »

If they turned these three ITs into something like the University of the Northwest University/University of Connaught, they could put the main campus in Sligo with maybe a satellite campus in Letterkenny, 112km away. Galway would still have NUIG.

One of the main selling points behind ITs, as far as I'm aware, is that it gives people a chance to have third level education more locally. Certainly that was the reason for the establishment of the Mayo campus of GMIT.

While there may be some efficiencies to be gained by combining administration, to centralise the courses would be defeating some of the purpose of ITs.

Permabear

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Permabear

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maudgonner

Permabear wrote: »

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Going by that logic we should combine all the Universities as well?

Ush1

Permabear wrote: »

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It's a problem with Irish politics overall is that it is too parochial, sure what do you expect when people vote for the Healy Raes and are happy as long as the roads are smooth in South Kerry. There are so many TDs that should just have stayed councillors. Their mindset is not national.

ancapailldorcha

maudgonner wrote: »

Going by that logic we should combine all the Universities as well?

It's not so much about combining as it is about improvement. It's going to be difficult to attract top talent to places like Sligo and Letterkenny. Randox, a company which makes diagnostic kits has just opened a plant in Dungloe, Donegal which, unless I am mistaken is not somewhere with a lot of life science graduates.

Permabear

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The Randy Riverbeast

Permabear wrote: »

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Waterford IT has arts for 280. It isn't difficult to look it up, a person with 280 points can manage to find it.

I'm not sure why you keep using random flawed methods of judging courses and colleges while refusing to back them up.

maudgonner

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's not so much about combining as it is about improvement. It's going to be difficult to attract top talent to places like Sligo and Letterkenny. Randox, a company which makes diagnostic kits has just opened a plant in Dungloe, Donegal which, unless I am mistaken is not somewhere with a lot of life science graduates.

Of course it's desirable to improve standards. But part of the reason behind ITs was to deliver 3rd level education more locally. The old name of 'Regional Technical College' reflected this.

It's been mentioned already in this thread that there are cases where people simply can't afford to go away to university, and I suspect we all know of people who were in that situation. ITs allow them to pursue 3rd level education - a chance that would otherwise be denied to them.

I'd love if there was more opportunities for distance learning or delivering courses remotely, I think we're wasting valuable opportunities. But I think that to suggest that the only reason ITs exist in more remote areas is because of parish pump politics is reductive and unhelpful. And to suggest centralising courses so that someone in North Donegal, for example, would have to travel to Galway to study Engineering, instead of Letterkenny, is missing the point of the IT system.

steddyeddy

Deleted User wrote: »

By Science do you just mean the science related academia/research sector? I would hope it is the same for non-science academia/research sectors. Talent, the thirst for learning and potential should triumph everything else.

But then I looked at the ERSI website and every researcher (out of approx. 30) has an undergrad from a University (TCD featured a lot). Not one of them went to an IT. Then again, the Universities are stronger at social sciences/economics so is this any surprise? I also looked at the Science Foundation Ireland website and found out that 18 out of the 19 scientific staff went to University, with one going to an IT. A quick glance at the top staff at the UK's Babraham Institute (life-sciences research) shows they too studied at universities.

Moving on to private sector/industry science, are you saying that the likes of PFizer, GSK, etc. don't favour graduates of certain courses (and thereby certain universities)?

I really don't know why the Government don't hurry up and merge the IT's and make maybe 3 or 4 new universities in the process. There are far too many higher education institutions in the country leading to duplication and less funds to establish truly world class institutions. There are ITs in Galway/Mayo, Sligo and Letterkenny, all quite near each other and all offer engineering. Why not turn these into one bigger engineering school that can compete for the best academics and more funding?

When I mean science I mean the wet sciences generally. I haven't got a clue about ITs to be honest.

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

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Well I have stated several of arguments coherently. I've agreed with you on some of your statements regarding institutions generally being variable in prestige and vary in difficulty to get into. Where we seem to disagree is that certain degrees are economically more valuable than others, contain heavier workloads and vary in the difficulty of their concepts.

When you have presented the first argument (institutional prestige) you resorted to childish talk about "backwater" institutions when people didn't agree with you.

I painted my opinion about degree types and for some reason you thought I mentioned intellectual ability and that art degrees are worthless. So in short dude you make quite childish comments when people disagree with you and assume people who disagree with you are making the worst possible assumptions because they disagree with you. I'll finish by saying there's an apt Russian expression roughly translated as "you judge people on your own merits". Everytime someone disagrees with you (even in an area you know relatively little about) you assume people are doing exactly what you're doing I.e getting personal.