Snobbery in education.

Maireadio

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Me too! :pac:

We so clever. :pac:

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

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Personal opinion that science generally has more difficult concepts........... I'll tell you what we'll agree to disagree. I'm off to do some nuclear magnertic resonance heteronuclear single quantum coherence spectroscopy.

You continue posting about how great your colleges are and how crap everything else is if it makes feel better this morning.

steddyeddy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I did Science in TCD and we had a similar setup in the final year. I was unfortunate with my tutor and I was basically used to make up stock materials that he needed for his own research. I remember trying to "bump up" what I had been doing in my project and presentation and make it sound better than "I made stuff for this guy to carry out his own work on" I heard only good things about UCD's Science course after, and regretted my choice. Anyway c'est la vie

Ah but that doesn't mean the course was bad it just means you had rotten luck with your supervisor.

OldNotWIse

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ah but that doesn't mean the course was bad it just means you had rotten luck with your supervisor.

This was but one example. As a scientist, I'm hardly going to come to a conclusion on the entirety of something based on one event

ancapailldorcha

I did the same course and got a great education as well as a fantastic final year project out of it. My only regret was that I didn't work hard enough at it.

steddyeddy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

This was but one example. As a scientist, I'm hardly going to come to a conclusion on the entirety of something based on one event

Ah I apologise.

OldNotWIse

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ah I apologise.

Ha its fine. Course wasn't exactly a car crash but certainly UCD's seemed superior from many points of view, facilities, tutors actually interested in teaching as opposed to being so caught up in their own research they barely had an interest in students. (not all of them of course). Anyway, different strokes I guess.

On the points thing, I think sometimes people confuse points with level of difficulty of the course and I don't know if that's a true reflection. I think when I did it, the points were something ridiculous like 400 or 415, and I was 100 points over that, but it wasn't exactly a walk in the park. Never had to repeat anything but had to apply myself.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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I had to deal with this as well. We hired a woman from Ballyfermot who said TCD was a kip and that everyone there should be burned to death. Turned out that she'd done a few months of an Analytical Science qualification at DCU or DIT and dropped out. She was also scratching her arse with the kitchen cutlery.

poa

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Has anyone encountered much snobbery when it comes to education?

I have both in my work and personal life. I got my degree at an IT while one of my colleagues got hers at NUIG. She used to make little comments inferring that University degrees were much better than those attained at ITs.

In one sense I think she has a point as degrees earned from universities tend to look better on paper for prospective employers, but the actual content of the course isn't all that different I don't think.

Another form of snobbery in relation to education I encountered was from my brother, who left formal education at a fairly young age. He was of the mind that students were essentially useless and had very little common sense. I think his snobbery came from some insecurity he had about his own education.

I attended a grammar school in England, and won a scholarship to study at Oxford. But for that there is no way I could have afforded the tuition fees. I regard the standards of degrees in Ireland, from Universities and IT's, to be higher than many Universities in the UK. On the whole I also think the Leaving Cert is broader and more in depth than the UK's GCSE and A-Level curriculae.
It is true that the degrees from some Irish Universities are superior to IT's, as is the case the world over. Reason being, the calibre of University tutors is often higher at Universities than at IT's. There are exceptions to the rule; but generally speaking one attains the highest degrees from the best Universities.
In the UK Oxford and Cambridge are known to be the best Universities, as are Harvard and Yale in America. However, when I emigrated to Ireland in 2010, being an Oxford Postgraduate didn't automatically gain me a good job here; as it does in the UK.
Had my Masters been attained at Trinity, it would have carried more weight. That is just the way it is in every country; employers tend to favour and recognise their own countries top University first; rightly or wrongly.
Personally I respect a man's IT degree as I would a man's University degree in Ireland. But the reality is; that yes, in certain fields University degrees are respected more than IT ones.
In the UK there has been a similar problem, Polytechnics became Universities; and went from offering diplomas to degrees. Despite being rebranded as Universities, they never lost the tag; and are still referred to as red brick universities. In other words colleges for the working class that couldn't afford to attend a proper University.
Like it or not, in some professions such as Law or Politics in Ireland; one has to have attended Trinity in order to get to the top. That is just the way it is. It's wrong, but that is the reality.
But if it's any consolation, having a Masters from Oxford can also work against one; as I found when applying for Management jobs. Employers often see it as code for top salary bracket expected; and will favour a candidate they perceive as willing to work for less.
It is possible to over-educate oneself, to the point of being unemployable.
The truth is, many young Irish now have degrees from IT's and Universities; but they are overqualified for the available jobs; so are forced to emigrate to Canada, UK, Australia, to find a job that matches their qualifications.
So what we have here is a small country of only 4.6m with a highly educated 18-25 year olds, and not enough jobs for degree educated young people. Emigration is their only option, unless they want to work in a minimum wage/zero hour contract type job which does not recognise their IT degree.
Will this change in the future? Probably not. I don't see more jobs for the 18-25 year olds being created in any volume to offset the emigration.
The other factor is since the Celtic Tiger Ireland experienced massive immigration from highly qualified Eastern Europeans. So what we had here was young Irish with IT degrees, and Eastern Europeans often with Masters or even PhD's from some of the best Universities in Europe competing for work.
So as an employer what does one do? Employ the Irish candidate with an IT degree? Or the Polish candidate with a Masters from a top Polish University? The tipping point is often not just the degree, but the fact that the European candidate will often have a second or even third language too.
So it's not as simple as Irish IT degree v Irish University degree. We are part of the EU now, and its Irish degrees v EU ones. It makes for a more competitive job market as a result, again ramping up the pressure for the young Irish 18-25 considering emigration as an option.
At 39 I am glad to have given up work and competing for jobs. I was done with academia after my masters; and had no desire to attain a PhD. But the reality is that in the last 10 years, all degrees have been devalued somewhat by the increase in the numbers attaining them.
Now a degree (from anywhere), isn't what it was worth in 2006. These days one needs a masters to give one the edge over all the many degree candidates applying for jobs.
Honestly, ask yourself this; if you were an employer and 2 candidates apply for a vacancy; one with a degree from GMIT and one from Trinity. Who would you employ for even money?
It's a moot point really.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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Nasty piece of work. I was something of a doormat back in the day so I just didn't speak up. Any sort of desire for self improvement or general prudence seems to be counter cultural. I once got derided for "still having my confirmation money". Apparently, it's better to drink oneself into oblivion every weekend and let the taxpayer fund your lifestyle. Who knew.

Maireadio

poa wrote: »

In the UK there has been a similar problem, Polytechnics became Universities; and went from offering diplomas to degrees. Despite being rebranded as Universities, they never lost the tag; and are still referred to as red brick universities.

No, the red brick universities came before the polytechnics. The red bricks are:

University of Birmingham
University of Bristol
University of Leeds
University of Liverpool
University of Manchester
University of Sheffield

Giblet

Permabear wrote: »

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Ooooh, there's a man who knows his black-shoals from his montecarlooooo

:P

Permabear

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poa

Maireadio wrote: »

No, the red brick universities came before the polytechnics.

Before my time, so I stand corrected.
But anyway, you get the point.
Working class universities v Oxbridge etc.

Maireadio

poa wrote: »

Before my time, so I stand corrected.
But anyway, you get the point.
Working class universities v Oxbridge etc.

Dude, Uni Bristol is not a "working-class" uni! :pac: But yeah, some would still consider the red bricks to be beneath Oxbridge.

Permabear

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The Randy Riverbeast

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I did Science in TCD and we had a similar setup in the final year. I was unfortunate with my tutor and I was basically used to make up stock materials that he needed for his own research. I remember trying to "bump up" what I had been doing in my project and presentation and make it sound better than "I made stuff for this guy to carry out his own work on" I heard only good things about UCD's Science course after, and regretted my choice. Anyway c'est la vie

It's often a problem when it comes to supervisors. In my year we had some people who hadn't seen their supervisor in months.

It also shows one of the problems with rankings, not sure about science but in my area trinity loses out to a "backwater institute". A person can either go to the top ranked university which a person like permabear would approve of or you can go to a university with a higher ranking in your relevant area and hope that the person employing you won't turn their nose up because you went to the backwater institute as everyone knows trinity is far better.

AnonoBoy

Maireadio wrote: »

Really? At the interview for my first post-graduation job (at a UK government science agency), I had to bring a college transcript and my graduation parchment to the interview. They were looked at and photocopied.

It was a setup for a joke.

But it's also true.

I work in a job where they don't care too much about where you studied and are more concerned with what you've done. To be honest I'd f*cking hate to work in a job where they comb through your CV tutting because you studied at somewhere they deem to be 'below par'.

Giblet

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes yes, we're all quants :pac:

Permabear

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steddyeddy

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

It's often a problem when it comes to supervisors. In my year we had some people who hadn't seen their supervisor in months.

It also shows one of the problems with rankings, not sure about science but in my area trinity loses out to a "backwater institute". A person can either go to the top ranked university which a person like permabear would approve of or you can go to a university with a higher ranking in your relevant area and hope that the person employing you won't turn their nose up because you went to the backwater institute as everyone knows trinity is far better.

That's true and at that point it's not about the institute.

For instance take UCD's biochem course. One lecturer did her PhD in Cambridge where's mine did his in Imperial. Both good on paper until you looked at my supervisor's publishing record. I did a summer project with the Cambridge woman who was absolutely woeful then moved onto a the imperial biophysics guy.

He took an interest in me and really really threw me in the deep end with experimental design while having regular lab meetings with me. Even amongst the same institute you can really get different opportunities. I was very lucky to publish with my undergrad supervisor I wouldn't have published with the first scientist. The fact I published opened up more doors than my alma mater IMHO.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nasty piece of work. I was something of a doormat back in the day so I just didn't speak up. Any sort of desire for self improvement or general prudence seems to be counter cultural. I once got derided for "still having my confirmation money". Apparently, it's better to drink oneself into oblivion every weekend and let the taxpayer fund your lifestyle. Who knew.

There's snobs at every level. There was snobby comments before I went to UCD and snobby comments when I didn't want to do a postdoc there. As regards the taxpayer slur I actually got that more when I was going to UCD. In fairness the taxpayer was funding my lifestyle.

AnonoBoy

Permabear wrote: »

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For some jobs that's probably true. I however don't "simply have a job" which is frankly, a condescending view. Doctors and Lawyers aren't the only people with prestigious careers.

The snobbery among university students who haven't even graduated is laughable though. I once witnessed two students from NUIG who were very excited to be invited to a party until one of them realised that one of the people throwing the party was a GMIT student and that meant "there'll be loads of GMIT people there." They decided not to attend.

Morons.

CramCycle

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I did Science in TCD and we had a similar setup in the final year. I was unfortunate with my tutor and I was basically used to make up stock materials that he needed for his own research. I remember trying to "bump up" what I had been doing in my project and presentation and make it sound better than "I made stuff for this guy to carry out his own work on" I heard only good things about UCD's Science course after, and regretted my choice. Anyway c'est la vie

I was going there and then a professor in the Biochem talked me out of it and told me to go to UCD, come back to him when I was done there. Gave me a free Biochem book as well. Like TCD though the final year project is very much lecturer dependent but they do have to volunteer for it and you get a mix of the interested and the anything for a student. It was always a good way to filter for strong postgrads and then set them down the road of grant applications etc. early.

Maireadio wrote: »

Natural Sciences in TCD. The specialisations from third year on are small classes so I won't divulge that as I may be identifiable. But the "softest" specialisation would probably be Environmental Science which I didn't do. Other specialisations in Biochemistry, Immunology, Microbiology, Genetics, Chemistry, Physics, Astrophysics, Neuroscience and Physiology. I did one of those and achieved a 2:1.

Interestingly, much like UCD, it depends on the specialisation as to your reputation based on degree. Microbiology in TCD used to have a terrible rep as it was seen as they sleep walked you through final year and only an idiot would not get a 1st. Pharamcology in UCD was very similar, they handed you the course, and only laziness not ability would have stopped you getting a first. They had this for years with Pharmacology bragging over their firsts (18 out of 24 one year) until an external quizzed them on basic concepts and most of them failed miserably thinking it would only be on their latest modules. This was years ago now, and I certainly wouldn't judge an applicant on it as I was lazy sh1t before college, a half assed sh1t through college and ten only really started working afterwards. I look back on what I could have achieved with a bit of hard graft earlier, and know that, in Ireland, the college doesn't make the person, it can help but only the person can hinder.

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

It's often a problem when it comes to supervisors. In my year we had some people who hadn't seen their supervisor in months.

Indeed, my supervisor was great but I got a poor result in the project. I asked him years later when he told me at a meeting that my project was brilliant why it had been marked so poorly. He told me that it was too difficult to get a good score, I was one of his hardest working fourth years, he was surprised that anyone could pull off the grade I got considering he didn't think anyone would pick the project. I was just pissed that it was predetermined that I could not get top marks and the other two in my group with easier projects got top marks, on the plus side, I made more effort for my subjects and done quite well.

It also shows one of the problems with rankings, not sure about science but in my area trinity loses out to a "backwater institute". A person can either go to the top ranked university which a person like permabear would approve of or you can go to a university with a higher ranking in your relevant area and hope that the person employing you won't turn their nose up because you went to the backwater institute as everyone knows trinity is far better.

Domestically certain courses definitely do, it's too small a world over here, it's not a case of the graduate not being good enough, just that they may not have done the right work. I have met 3rd years in IT Pharma courses who could take a HPLC machine apart and do a full test run including set up. In fourth year I could have told you all about how it worked in theory but if you had put me in front of one, I would have been dumbstruck. I have met 3rd year PhD chemists who could not do molarity calculations, putting them on par with, at best, every 1st year science who passes chemistry.

I am not sure how it works in arts and humanities, engineering etc., but in regards postgrads, with the exception of a few colleges with odd door policies, Science postgrad applicants are judged mainly on their work.

Permabear

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Avatar MIA

Permabear wrote: »

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There's a huge gap between those that have little ambition with the college they go to being largely irrelevant and those aspiring to go to Ivy league type colleges, ignoring the vast majority of people who wish to get into the best college aligned to their career/subject choice.

Again, I'm spot reading the thread so may have missed some nuance.

Ush1

Permabear wrote: »

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1. He's an assistant professor.
2. His source is basically his mates he has talked to. "as told through the experiences of my friends "
3. The answers you listed sounded a lot like snobbery to be honest(note the use of the term "name-brand"). None said you will objectively have a higher quality of knowledge of the subject.

Permabear

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