Tesla Model 3

serfboard

unkel wrote: »

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, but the bit you quoted I didn't mean the infrastructure, I meant the incentives.

Sorry, you're right - you had said earlier in the post about the amount wasted on SCP, and that's what I was addressing.

unkel wrote: »

The government could have spent some of these subsidies on ... stuff that people really like as in free motor tax

Agree. Look at how they engineered the switch to diesel using the Road Tax incentive.

unkel

People here are only interested in a few hundred quid off (cheaper tax), not in a few thousand quid off (subsidies)

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

I mean €10k subsidy and a €1k free charger and free unlimited electricity on every public charger are a bit much, aren't they? And still they have only led to an appalling uptake.

I agree - however, I believe they were right to offer these - and should continue to offer them up until uptake - 'takes off'. Remember, they can be reduced or dropped - at the drop of a hat.

At the end of the day, our numbers are low and if I'm not mistaken, we could be heading into the territory of fines as a consequence? If I'm wrong on that, then we definitely have missed targets.

As regards education, the best education comes from word of mouth - in Ireland above anywhere else. There isn't an EV driver out there who has not influenced others to go that route OR they have at least shifted opinion from the point where people think EV's are laughable to a point where they may well give them a chance upon their next vehicle change. I think that monies allocated to advertising/promotion should be limited / targeted with a clear understanding that it pays its way.

unkel

I think we already pay several hundred million a year emissions fines? And that it is set to increase soon? Can't remember the details, cros13 will come along shortly to remind us

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, but the bit you quoted I didn't mean the infrastructure, I meant the incentives. I mean €10k subsidy and a €1k free charger and free unlimited electricity on every public charger are a bit much, aren't they? And still they have only led to an appalling uptake. The government could have spent some of these subsidies on educating the people on EVs (most people still haven't a clue - ask around you) and stuff that people really like as in free motor tax and free parking (costs almost nothing per car)

the reason for the slow uptake is (a) EVs are still more expensive and range anxiety is a factor amongst buyers,

Add that the relative cheapness of diesel

Imagine the uptake is the incentives weren't there ( like 0)

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

unkel

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Eh yeah. That's exactly what the people think about EVs. You would almost have to presume a man in the pub told them so...

Crap range - more than most people ever drive in a day. Not for everyone yet, but it is fine for most people

Lack of charging - free home charging point and charging costs just €1.80 per 200km. Many times more for diesel. Public chargers everywhere and they're all free

Heavy depreciation - a bit heavier than similar cars, but mostly so on the Nissan Leaf, which has been around for a very long time, will soon be replaced with a new model. And you can bring ex-lease cars in from the UK for zero VRT, which brings the second hand values down. And even then, the extra depreciation will be compensated many times by the fuel savings.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

ELM327

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

What EV do you own?
My leaf does 120km every day, minimum. 7 days a week. Charged at home every night, and during the day at work. I can do 180km before I even need to think about using the public system.

There is no "lack of public charging", there isnt anywhere on the island of Ireland that I cant go. I have been to all 4 provinces, from the Bushmills distillery to the south of munster. Wexford to Laghys FCP in donegal to westport. I did 1000km in 2 days there a couple of weeks ago, visiting family in wexford and then up to friends in gweedore the next day.

I am making a profit of 150 per month every month I have this leaf versus my old 320d. That cost me over 350 per month in diesel, 600 a year more in tax, higher service costs etc. My car loan is 250 per month and the car costs 2 euro to fill up. And becaus of work charging it's never empty at home.


I ask again, what EV do you own and why is it costing you money?

Calahonda52

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Indeed.

Exhibit A, your Honour.

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I rest my case.

ELM327

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Indeed.

Exhibit A, your Honour.


I rest my case.

He has not yet stated what EV he owns
My money is on "none"

Idbatterim

Lack of charging - free home charging point and charging costs just €1.80 per 200km. Many times more for diesel. Public chargers everywhere and they're all free

surely the charging situation is going to start mattering a lot less, when you can cover large distances without stopping and charge on that end or even get there and back to home on the one charge...

I am making a profit of 150 per month every month I have this leaf versus my old 320d. That cost me over 350 per month in diesel, 600 a year more in tax, higher service costs etc. My car loan is 250 per month and the car costs 2 euro to fill up. And becaus of work charging it's never empty at home.


I ask again, what EV do you own and why is it costing you money?

does that take all costs into account? including the higher depreciation and loan interest v the 320d, because the all in costs are the only fair comparison IMO...

cros13

serfboard wrote: »

What I want to know is, are there examples of other countries which rolled out a Fast Charge network at the same time as we were rolling out a (mostly) slow charge one?

Estonia.... they rolled out a massive chademo only network and are now having to replace it.

ELM327

Idbatterim wrote: »

surely the charging situation is going to start mattering a lot less, when you can cover large distances without stopping and charge on that end or even get there and back to home on the one charge...




does that take all costs into account? including the higher depreciation and loan interest v the 320d, because the all in costs are the only fair comparison IMO...

Yes. No loan cost on the 320d as it was bought for 500 quid at an auction. 350 per month fuel cost (and tax) were the only major costs on cars that I had prior.
Spending 250 per month on the loan repayment and perhaps 20 on electricity, makes there be no real depreciation cost to me, I have a positive "opportunity cost" saving of 80 euro per month on running cost alone, plus 600 per year less tax, which is another 50 per month.

The car is saving me money. My loan will be repaid in 2.5 years and it will then be saving me even more. I have *no* depreciation cost. I could sell the car today for nearly what I paid for it (look how much a 2014 SVE leaf with a 6.6 kW charger goes for here, and I assure you I paid less 9 months ago!)

unkel

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'll give it a go

Range - real life range for Hyundai Ioniq is 200km plus including motorway driving at the speed limit. So unless your commute is over 100km each way, you don't need work charging, only home charging

Range - long distance. This is a problem, there is no denying that. Buy a high end Tesla and it will do 500km real life, but cheap EVs like the Ioniq (paid €25k for mine incl. metallic on the road) just don't have this kind of range yet. Still you should be able to go pretty much anywhere in Ireland with just the one 30 minute charge (not 5 as your friend did). You can do Dublin - Belfast, Dublin - Limerick, Dublin - Galway, Dublin - Wexford, Dublin - Waterford without charging and Dublin - Cork with a 15 minute charge

Moneywise: Depreciation over 7 years is €2,700 per year, tax €120, insurance €350, maintenance €200, fuel €160 (if you always pay for your fuel and never juice up for free). Based on 18k km per year (Irish average), or a bit under €300 per month. A lot less than a comparable size brand new petrol or diesel. My 14 year old worthless banger (with a big engine) that I maintained myself, cost me a lot more in total cost of ownership than buying a brand new Ioniq

Armchair Andy

Met a lad charging his leaf in Cashel en route to Dublin last week. Plugged it in as we were speaking I went on in to get a coffee when I came back out he was gone.
Passed him out before Thurles he was doing no more than 90kmh. Was this by choice or did he not have enough time to charge would anyone guess? He was actually a danger as HGVS were beginning to back up behind him.

BoatMad

Armchair Andy wrote: »

Met a lad charging his leaf in Cashel en route to Dublin last week. Plugged it in as we were speaking I went on in to get a coffee when I came back out he was gone.
Passed him out before Thurles he was doing no more than 90kmh. Was this by choice or did he not have enough time to charge would anyone guess? He was actually a danger as HGVS were beginning to back up behind him.

The leaf is probably at its best around 90 to 95 km/h

remember there is a 10% speedo error in the leaf , so he think she's at 100 km/h !!!

KCross

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Its simple, its only crap if you require it. If you are adamant that you need 150km+ on a regular basis then its crap. For the majority of people its perfectly fine as is but more range would be better of course.

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Same as previous comment really. The charging side of things is not generally required unless you need to do a long journey. One 25min charge gets you back up to 80% of the range. Most people don't need it.


Most on this forum agree it could be better but its not a blocker to ownership for the majority.

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Depreciation figures by buying second hand discussed in this thread will give you an idea of the savings.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102413296&postcount=21


EV's are clearly not for everyone yet. If its not for you then fine but your generalisations are just not correct for most of us that have an EV.

Don't base your opinion on one work colleague. Have a chat with the rest of us and give us your own use case and you will generally get honest replies on whether it could work for you or not.

isnottheword

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's a question of buying in at the right price point. You're quite right to say that they have depreciated rapidly in the first 24 months. However, with the majority of depreciation shed at that stage, they won't depreciate any faster than an ICE after that. The battery also -will be worth something (not so sure how much) at end of life.

Furthermore, regardless of further advancement, there will be punters for these at the lower end. Imagine if you're a city dweller or need a second car for local runs or your an oap that does damn all driving, then these cars will suit their needs. If taxes on ICE's gradually (year on year) go up - as they will ultimately - and people are forced to go EV, then those that do damn all mileage that don't otherwise have the $ can buy an older leaf or zoe, etc.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

remember there is a 10% speedo error in the leaf , so he think she's at 100 km/h !!!

The difference between the speedo in the Leaf and Ioniq is what, 2-3 Km/h ? hardly worth mentioning.

All cars speedo over read.

My commute is 141 Kms, I charge at work, before this I charged daily in Naas for 10-15 mins for 9 months and on several occasions the chargers were being used by local shoppers, quiet annoying and if I had to do it again I wouldn't. However a year later the 30 Kwh was released and would mean I could make the return trip without charging but not as fast as I drive now with the work charger but still acceptable.

The Ioniq would do it at a faster speed.

Most people won't buy an EV until driving an ICE becomes too inconvenient or expensive and that's unlikely to happen for a decade or two at the very least and people are quiet happy with diesel and don't see a need to drive EV. Range is an issue absolutely but I'm not convinced that when the first 300 Km EV's re released that that alone will tempt Irish Drivers.

Then there are many people who can't charge at home and are quiet right not to rely on Public charging as their only means of charging until there are many more chargers.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

Range is an issue absolutely but I'm not convinced that when the first 300 Km EV's re released that that alone will tempt Irish Drivers.

More fool them. They can pay the year on year increases on taxation on dino-juice then.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

For a long time, hence the massive investment in a network of backwards (or at the very best: not looking forwards) slow chargers

I know it is easy to speak with hindsight. But clearly there was very, very little vision about the future of EVs and charging in the powers that be in Ireland...

You don't seem to get it yet Unkel, AC points are extremely useful, there are times when I go further than the Leaf range and without the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf would have to use DC chargers but I instead use the AC points, come back to the car and drive off again, I don't have to then drive to a DC point and wait for a charge or for someone to finish.

At the very least the AC points will greatly cut down the need for DC charging and free up DC charging for those who do need it on longer trips between Towns where charging as fast as possible is necessary.

Not everyone needs to charge as fast as possible all the time.

Renault and Nissan at the time had told the ESB that they would have a lot more EV's with 22 Kw capability but it didn't happen.

They still only have one EV model each which is really quiet pathetic.

KCross

isnottheword wrote: »

More fool them. They can pay the year on year increases on taxation on dino-juice then.

I agree. If I were to be selfish I'd say let them be fools for as long as possible so I can continue to save thousands in the meantime at their expense!

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't seem to get it yet Unkel, AC points are extremely useful, there are times when I go further than the Leaf range and without the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf would have to use DC chargers but I instead use the AC points, come back to the car and drive off again, I don't have to then drive to a DC point and wait for a charge or for someone to finish.

At the very least the AC points will greatly cut down the need for DC charging and free up DC charging for those who do need it on longer trips between Towns where charging as fast as possible is necessary.

Not everyone needs to charge as fast as possible all the time.

I'm afraid you don't get it

If only we had a few more DC chargers and a few less AC chargers, then we'd never have to wait for someone to finish! Had my first AC charge today. 50km took 1 hour. With a lot of hassle using my own cable (which got wet). On a fast charger it would have taken 10 minutes, just enough time to make a few calls and read a few emails and be off again. That's the future, a full charge in about the same time it now takes to fill up with petrol / diesel

Not having to wait somewhere for an hour to only just get a tiny charge. A lot of hassle for almost no gain. If slow is fine, then charge at home, at work, at the park and ride, etc. For anyone on the move, charge quick!

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

unkel

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Indeed they would roughly have the same total cost of ownership as an Ioniq if you do a lower than average mileage. The Ioniq is 2 sizes bigger though (same size as Avensis / 3-series / Accord, etc.) and is fully loaded with technology (think active cruise control, lane assist, etc.)

And if you do more miles, a car like an Ioniq would be cheaper to own than a small supermini like a Fabia or Yaris.

isnottheword

isnottheword wrote: »

More fool them. They can pay the year on year increases on taxation on dino-juice then.

Most people see the current diesel prices cheap and are quiet willing to pay for it. It will take at least 1.80 - 2.00 euro's per litre for people to rethink.

Handing cash out for fuel at the checkout is a lot less noticeable than a bill at the end of each month, perhaps a monthly bill would wake more people up.

A good few people have asked me would it run up the electricity bill and I said yes and they said oh no my electricity bill is expensive enough, such is the mentality of a lot of people.......

Or, can you charge the battery as you're driving, this always cracks me up.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

Handing cash out for fuel at the checkout is a lot less noticeable than a bill at the end of each month, perhaps a monthly bill would wake more people up.

A good few people have asked me would it run up the electricity bill and I said yes and they said oh no my electricity bill is expensive enough, such is the mentality of a lot of people.......

As I say, more fool them :-)