Tesla Model 3

n97 mini

cros13 wrote: »

ESB however have only installed 50kW chargers

Not quite true. I've seen an Ioniq suck a sustained 70kw out of an Efacec triple standard, which is supposedly 45kw.

Calahonda52

Cloudio9 wrote: »

So is it only teslas that use this type charger?

The Tesla charging kit being installed is in addition to and not in substitution for, the existing FCP

cros13

n97 mini wrote: »

Not quite true. I've seen an Ioniq suck a sustained 70kw out of an Efacec triple standard, which is supposedly 45kw.

Officially the efacec QC45 is sold as a 50kW rapid. The supply side tops out at 62.5kW and is shared with the AC43 connector. And the DC power supplied varies based on internal temperature.

http://electricmobility.efacec.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/CS119I1307D1_QC45.pdf

The HV175 (168kW) and HV350 (326kW) are efacecs options over 50kW (with the exception of their HGV/Bus chargers):

http://electricmobility.efacec.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/CS332I1606D1_HV.pdf

Sabre Man

BoatMad wrote: »

any idea where the others will go , I would presume one somewhere around Dublin ?

I'm sure they'll have a few at their Sandyford store.

cros13

Sabre Man wrote: »

I'm sure they'll have a few at their Sandyford store.

Nope. Only destination charging. It's in the planning.

Tesla do not normally locate superchargers near Gallerys or Service/Service+ locations.

Cloudio9

So is charging going to be a fragmented mess or will this all work out?

cros13

Cloudio9 wrote: »

So is charging going to be a fragmented mess or will this all work out?

CCS is the european standard and is legally required to be present at all government funded/grant aided charging locations. Tesla have joined CharIN (the CCS industry group) and because of Tesla's use of Type 2 in europe (which makes up the upper two thirds of the CCS plug) they could make the Model 3 compatible with both existing superchargers and CCS with one socket on the car side.

So far Nissan is the only holdout (though the Renault half of the alliance has already confirmed they will move their cars to CCS by 2019 at the latest (they currently use AC43)).

Level 2 AC charging is already standardised with the Type 2 plug.

cros13

There is some additional evidence that the Model 3 will be CCS...
take a look at the size of the charge port cover on the pre-production units:



*cough* so... I called that one what... 18 months ago?

Soarer

So is that gonna suffer with the same silly parking of Ioniq owners?

cros13

Soarer wrote: »

So is that gonna suffer with the same silly parking of Ioniq owners?

It's the same position as the Model S and X.

Mope

That location is way too far for me to make it during lunch. Will have to pass this time so won't be able to meet few Boardies :]

Sabre Man

cros13 wrote: »

Nope. Only destination charging. It's in the planning.

Tesla do not normally locate superchargers near Gallerys or Service/Service+ locations.

How fast are those destination chargers compared to superchargers?

unkel

Destination chargers vary, the fastest is about 80A / 14kW. I think the superchargers are 145kW these days. So 10 times as fast as the fastest destination charger...

But I don't think (most) Tesla batteries can take such a load, so in practice the difference is not as big as that.

cros13

They are 22kW three phase. So limited by the onboard charger.

Pre early-2016 Model S\X:
Standard 11kW three-phase charger
Optional 22kW software unlock

From early 2016 to April 2017 Model S/X:
Standard 11kW three-phase charger
Optional 16.5kW software unlock

From April 2017 Model S/X:
Standard 11kW three-phase charger on all battery specs below 100kWh
Standard 16.5kW three-phase charger on all battery specs of 100kWh

unkel

"optional software unlock" = greedy bastards. I take it based on your last paragraph that this "option" is now gone from April 2017?

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Officially the efacec QC45 is sold as a 50kW rapid. The supply side tops out at 62.5kW and is shared with the AC43 connector. And the DC power supplied varies based on internal temperature.

There must be more to it as Mad_Lad showed it pulling 64kW and others have said they saw 70kW. Maybe the units got a software update and the specs online are out of date?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102692085&postcount=1228

Soarer wrote: »

So is that gonna suffer with the same silly parking of Ioniq owners?

The Tesla owners won't have the same issue with the plug position as they have the superchargers which are designed for it.

unkel

The old fashioned petrol station "charging" position has been perfected for over 100 years and found to be the most efficient. Presumably that's why Tesla superchargers are just like that. Why oh why it was deemed to be a great idea to have fast charge points with "supermarket" parking space parking, located at supermarkets up to 10 minutes drive away from main national roads and motorways? :rolleyes:

It benefits me as my local fast charge point is very convenient to me and it is probably the quietest on in the Dublin area, but still. Why did they decide to do that? Whatever problems they "thought" they had with planning permission, electricity supply and what not - obviously Tesla didn't see these problems and / or has overcome them

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

The old fashioned petrol station "charging" position has been perfected for over 100 years and found to be the most efficient. Presumably that's why Tesla superchargers are just like that. Why oh why it was deemed to be a great idea to have fast charge points with "supermarket" parking space parking, located at supermarkets up to 10 minutes drive away from main national roads and motorways? :rolleyes:

It benefits me as my local fast charge point is very convenient to me and it is probably the quietest on in the Dublin area, but still. Why did they decide to do that? Whatever problems they "thought" they had with planning permission, electricity supply and what not - obviously Tesla didn't see these problems and / or has overcome them

You are correct , but the initial range of EVs was based around the Leaf in 2011, hence a car with a 50 mile range . Hence the view was that it needed to be distributed around the country

The original idea was to place them in motorway accessible stop-offs and also in existing filling stations

However it proved for more difficult to gain permission to establish chargers in filling stations, while it proved easier to get a few space in shaping centres. Hence the reason many were installed there

The Tesla system is no doubt the way to go , i.e. hugh capacity charging stations , but limited in number , but this strategy only really works with long range EVs

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

the initial range of EVs was based around the Leaf in 2011, hence a car with a 50 mile range . Hence the view was that it needed to be distributed around the country

Aye, but that was very narrow minded. Did they not have any vision at all that range would get greater soon enough and that home charging would cover all local traffic, but that for longer distance travel you needed fast chargers along those longer distance travel corridors?

BoatMad wrote: »

it proved for more difficult to gain permission to establish chargers in filling stations

I'd say the problem there was more state of mind (of semi-state employees on cosy salaries and pensions and the odd politician with neither balls nor vision) than legal difficulties. As soon as a commercial company stepped in (Tesla) these problems were overcome. And from a planning point of view I can only imagine that fast charge points suitable for all vehicles would be looked upon favourably compared to exclusive proprietary chargers only suitable for one make of EV (Tesla supercharger)

BoatMad

Aye, but that was very narrow minded. Did they not have any vision at all that range would get greater soon enough and that home charging would cover all local traffic, but that for longer distance travel you needed fast chargers along those longer distance travel corridors?

if you go back to 2010 , when the project started , it was very unclear how EV charging would develop, in fact the initial view was that AC charging at destinations was the majority activity . Fast charging only got going later in the project

You have to remember this was funded by the CER as a " pilot " program , to investigate charger models, and look at rolling out a test programme, It wasn't meant to be the be all and end all

I'd say the problem there was more state of mind (of semi-state employees on cosy salaries and pensions and the odd politician with neither balls nor vision) than legal difficulties. As soon as a commercial company stepped in (Tesla) these problems were overcome. And from a planning point of view I can only imagine that fast charge points suitable for all vehicles would be looked upon favourably compared to exclusive proprietary chargers only suitable for one make of EV (Tesla supercharger)

Sorry , Tesla has cars that have hugely bigger range , then the cars that were knocking around in 2010. Secondly its damm easy too get planning permission for a handful of chargers , when in 2010 it was clear that many more locations were needed

If you look at Tesla for examine, the whole NW is forgotten as is the whole SW and SE, its hardly comprehensive in any way

As for

of semi-state employees on cosy salaries and pensions and the odd politician with neither balls nor vision)

cheap shot , I know the Technical manager of eCars project personally , he's from the private sector , and no politican got involved in the CER pilot project . This project was put forward by ESB , which is a internationally respected engineering company and in fact on the back of the Irish project ESB is wining further EV charging projects all round Europe

I agree , its far from perfect , but the EV landscape is changing and charging will change with it , Ultimately home charging will be the key component anyway

Mope

BoatMad you are good asset to this Board section :-)

aliveandkicking

BoatMad wrote: »

cheap shot , I know the Technical manager of eCars project personally , he's from the private sector , and no politican got involved in the CER pilot project . This project was put forward by ESB , which is a internationally respected engineering company and in fact on the back of the Irish project ESB is wining further EV charging projects all round Europe

I was under the impression that the electric vehicle charging network was part of the Green Party's manifesto when they went into Government in 2007. Eamon Ryan progressed it and the EV grant scheme when he was the minister responsible. One of the few good things the Greens did when in power so you are wrong to suggest no politician got involved with it.

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry , Tesla has cars that have hugely bigger range , then the cars that were knocking around in 2010.

Tesla Roadster was announced to the public in 2006 and produced in 2008. This car at one stage was driven for over 500km on one charge. Before any Nissan Leaf was produced.

Tesla Model S was announced to the public in 2008 and produced in 2012. Our "visionary" leaders within the ESB and CER had never heard of these? It seems their vision was that everyone would be driving a

BoatMad wrote: »

around the Leaf in 2011, hence a car with a 50 mile range

For a long time, hence the massive investment in a network of backwards (or at the very best: not looking forwards) slow chargers

I know it is easy to speak with hindsight. But clearly there was very, very little vision about the future of EVs and charging in the powers that be in Ireland...

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

I know it is easy to speak with hindsight. But clearly there was very, very little vision about the future of EVs and charging in the powers that be in Ireland...

I think that's a bit harsh. As a first attempt, it hasn't been so bad of a roll out (It can still be much more functional right now if managed correctly). Was it clear back then that things would progress from an ultra expensive roadster to where we are today?

The Leaf was the first mover in the market followed by the Zoe. It was right to provide a basic infrastructure to encourage early adaptors to make the switch.

A secondary phase of roll out can follow the Tesla model.

BoatMad

I know it is easy to speak with hindsight. But clearly there was very, very little vision about the future of EVs and charging in the powers that be in Ireland...

I agree with INTW. My experience of the individuals concerned tried to anticipate the situation , and in fact installed an system way in advance of a rise in EV percentages, in fact the ESB was caught by the very slow uptake.

and as the previous poster suggest, Tesla are only now present in the irish market, to suggest it would have been factored in in 2010 is not sensible

unkel

That's not what I suggested, BoatMad. There's barely a Tesla in the country even today and it's 2017 now. But my point is the Teslas were well known well before the first EVs like Leafs and Zoes were made and sold in Ireland and it was pretty obvious that battery capacity would become cheaper and better over time. The focus should have been on home charging and fast charging. In fairness those were addressed in time and for a reasonable budget, but imho an awful lot of money was wasted on SCP. Which were never that useful to start with and are a bit of a joke today

I just charged on a SCP for the first time today. Just for the craic. Charged for an hour over lunchtime at 7kWh, so that gained me 50km. And I had to take my own cable out of the car, take the cable out of its bag, plug in at 2 points. And put the wet cable in the car when it was finished. Will have to put it back in its bag later after it has dried. Complete pain in the neck. Could have got 50km charge in under 10 minutes at a fast charger with a lot less hassle...

It would have benefited a lot more people is if SCP were installed in or near large apartment complexes or at least some sort of planning solution for home charging for apartment owners. A lot of urban professionals (prime targets for being early adopters of EV) living in apartments can't charge at home / close to home now, so they rightfully aren't interested in buying EVs. And that is such a shame.

Of course I love the €10k subsidy I got plus the free charge point, but it could have been spent more wisely if the sole objective was to increase the rate of EV ownership in Ireland. I hope there is a bit of momentum building up now, I'm doing my bit to help it by talking to a lot of people around me, but the figures are shameful. And the subsidies / incentives here in Ireland are better than most other countries in the EU. In other words - plenty of money but not wisely spent. Typical for Ireland in many ways.

There's going to be a large take up in private charge points soon in Ireland and possible a U.S company if what I heard is correct which could leave the ESB Charging network in the Dust. Oh and along with the big German car companies installing 350 Kw chargers though this to me is not fact yet. Here's hoping.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

but imho an awful lot of money was wasted on SCP. Which were never that useful to start with and are a bit of a joke today

Were those units that expensive? - and have they tended to be more reliable than their FCP cousins?

Is it a case that they can be easily redeployed? If so, there will still be a need for pure city dwellers who simply won't be able to charge from home - to utilise if a bit of thought is put into it down the line. i.e perhaps they are placed strategically for use by locals within a specific area to use on that basis at normalised rates. That's just a suggestion at the top of my head.

All I'm saying is that the investment was not a waste of space - and certainly, Zoe users wouldn't suggest for a second that they are. They've also proven useful for me charging at 6.6kW (albeit I too would prefer to be accessing something faster).

serfboard

unkel wrote: »

And the subsidies / incentives here in Ireland are better than most other countries in the EU. In other words - plenty of money but not wisely spent. Typical for Ireland in many ways.

I don't agree with that at all.

In most things that we do in Ireland we are very slow adopters, and wait for other countries (mostly the UK) to try it first, and then learn from their mistakes.

Here is an example of Ireland trying (and by trying, that means investing), and making the mistakes ourselves roughly around the same time as everyone else.

What I want to know is, are there examples of other countries which rolled out a Fast Charge network at the same time as we were rolling out a (mostly) slow charge one?

Ireland was not the only country to make that mistake.

unkel

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, but the bit you quoted I didn't mean the infrastructure, I meant the incentives. I mean €10k subsidy and a €1k free charger and free unlimited electricity on every public charger are a bit much, aren't they? And still they have only led to an appalling uptake. The government could have spent some of these subsidies on educating the people on EVs (most people still haven't a clue - ask around you) and stuff that people really like as in free motor tax and free parking (costs almost nothing per car)