Tesla Model 3

unkel

I agree it might seem illogical, but that's exactly what a lot of people in NL have done for business use. Once they started putting the lease figures together and the total net cost of driving the car after all BIK, taxes, etc. they found it wasn't any more expensive to get a Model S (€80k) than say a similarly specced BMW 520d (€60k) over 4 years.

Still haven't seen a single Model S on the road in Ireland. You can't drive on any motorway in NL for more than a couple of minutes without seeing one. Plenty of Model S taxis over there too. I guess not that many people over here have "seen the light"

Indricotherium

unkel wrote: »

I agree it might seem illogical, but that's exactly what a lot of people in NL have done for business use. Once they started putting the lease figures together and the total net cost of driving the car after all BIK, taxes, etc. they found it wasn't any more expensive to get a Model S (€80k) than say a similarly specced BMW 520d (€60k) over 4 years.

Still haven't seen a single Model S on the road in Ireland. You can't drive on any motorway in NL for more than a couple of minutes without seeing one. Plenty of Model S taxis over there too. I guess not that many people over here have "seen the light"

There's at least one model s knocking around north kildare

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

I agree it might seem illogical, but that's exactly what a lot of people in NL have done for business use. Once they started putting the lease figures together and the total net cost of driving the car after all BIK, taxes, etc. they found it wasn't any more expensive to get a Model S (€80k) than say a similarly specced BMW 520d (€60k) over 4 years.

Still haven't seen a single Model S on the road in Ireland. You can't drive on any motorway in NL for more than a couple of minutes without seeing one. Plenty of Model S taxis over there too. I guess not that many people over here have "seen the light"

The lack of superchargers and a legimate sales outlet , I expect are the biggest reason . Tesla ignored Ireland fur quite a time.

All that is changing now , so I'd expect to see a Resonabke flow of executives driving teslas here over the next few years.

unkel

You need all that first, agreed. To some extent. But I doubt the mind set is there yet in Irish executives to switch over to high end EVs in any meaningful numbers.

And Teslas are the only EVs in Ireland that have enough range so that they don't really need public fast charging

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

You need all that first, agreed. To some extent. But I doubt the mind set is there yet in Irish executives to switch over to high end EVs in any meaningful numbers.

And Teslas are the only EVs in Ireland that have enough range so that they don't really need public fast charging

I don't agree. I would suggest that on average there is little difference between , say a Dutch executive and an Irish one.

Talking to the tesla guy they know there is significant interest from that grouping

One way or the other buyers of 70-100K cars are likely to be company executives of one form or another. Most of which are doing relatively little mileage.

It will be interesting to see if DoF accept the proposal to remove BIK on EVs. That would be a huge shot in the arm for high end EVs here , like Tesla.

Indricotherium

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't agree. I would suggest that on average there is little difference between , say a Dutch executive and an Irish one.

Talking to the tesla guy they know there is significant interest from that grouping

One way or the other buyers of 70-100K cars are likely to be company executives of one form or another. Most of which are doing relatively little mileage.

It will be interesting to see if DoF accept the proposal to remove BIK on EVs. That would be a huge shot in the arm for high end EVs here , like Tesla.

I'd say mileage is the difference.

250km range gives you access to 15 Million customers in The Netherlands, not so in Ireland.

BoatMad

Indricotherium wrote: »

I'd say mileage is the difference.

250km range gives you access to 15 Million customers in The Netherlands, not so in Ireland.

By and large executives don't visit customers. As a general comment large executive cars are pure status symbols rather then means of transport for frequent driving.

The major issue here would have been the lack of an official sales and service outlet.

Most company vehicles are leased and tend to contain conditions requiring official servicing. Lease companies are also reluctant to deal with foreign dealers due to the issue of jurisdiction.

This tends to prevent executives from buying Teslas here.

I suspect that will change , we have a lot of high tech here that's keen to wave its green credentials around. As a proportion we buy a lot of high end cars in this ccuntry. So I expect to see many Teslas here in a few years

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

The major issue here would have been the lack of an official sales and service outlet.

Also for a two year period Tesla in the UK were refusing to sell to Irish customers because of the cost of providing warranty service using a Tesla Ranger from Manchester.

An additional issue was uncertainty over OMSP for VRT purposes.

traco

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't agree. I would suggest that on average there is little difference between , say a Dutch executive and an Irish one.

Talking to the tesla guy they know there is significant interest from that grouping

One way or the other buyers of 70-100K cars are likely to be company executives of one form or another. Most of which are doing relatively little mileage.

It will be interesting to see if DoF accept the proposal to remove BIK on EVs. That would be a huge shot in the arm for high end EVs here , like Tesla.

Many execs / business owners have moved away from the company cars here because of BIK, either going for the allowance or mileage option. BIK on an 80k car doing small miles is bonkers. Most people I know prefer the money in their pocket rather than in revenues.

I've see a few Model S around Dublin and one is owned by an exec but I think he owns it privately and has a regular company car but that may be hearsay.

Tax breaks would definitely change that situation but can't see it happening.

cros13

Dave Hurley (CEO of Merrion Fleet) has a P90D. Took him almost 18 months to convince Tesla to sell to him and get it delivered and imported.

BoatMad

traco wrote: »

Many execs / business owners have moved away from the company cars here because of BIK, either going for the allowance or mileage option. BIK on an 80k car doing small miles is bonkers. Most people I know prefer the money in their pocket rather than in revenues.

I've see a few Model S around Dublin and one is owned by an exec but I think he owns it privately and has a regular company car but that may be hearsay.

Tax breaks would definitely change that situation but can't see it happening.

The BIK incentive is a serious proposal from Naughtons Dept. Whether it gets serious traction in the current Gov ( where nothing is getting traction) remains to be seen

BoatMad

traco wrote: »

Many execs / business owners have moved away from the company cars here because of BIK, either going for the allowance or mileage option. BIK on an 80k car doing small miles is bonkers. Most people I know prefer the money in their pocket rather than in revenues.

I've see a few Model S around Dublin and one is owned by an exec but I think he owns it privately and has a regular company car but that may be hearsay.

Tax breaks would definitely change that situation but can't see it happening.

Non standard Allowances are taxed at full marginal and an executive claiming civil service rates either has to commit fraud or run a family car rather then an executive car ( or an old executive car )

Talk to a regular lease company ,both corporate leases and contract hire are as buoyant as ever.

The reality is that civil service rates only work if you buy an old car , no one buying new In The 70k plus range is using " allowances " .

Non standard allowances are actually worse then BIK.

spyderski

unkel wrote: »

Still haven't seen a single Model S on the road in Ireland. You can't drive on any motorway in NL for more than a couple of minutes without seeing one. Plenty of Model S taxis over there too. I guess not that many people over here have "seen the light"

You must be living in the wrong part! I see 2-3 (same ones, granted) almost every day around south Dublin/city centre.

Was just at the SEAI show, spent 30 mins looking around the Model X P100D. An absolutely awesome machine. It would want to be for €220k I suppose!

Tesla representative confirmed expected mid-2018 delivery for Model 3. He also said there's over 30 Model S in Ireland, which is pretty impressive considering no dealership here. On that note, the Tesla outlet in Sandyford is to be open in 3 week.

zilog_jones

spyderski wrote: »

He also said there's over 30 Model S in Ireland...

Is that in the 32 counties maybe? There are only 9 registered in the Republic from what I can see.

spyderski

Not sure if he was talking 32 counties, but 9 would seem very low. I think I've seen more than that myself. There's 3 within 1km of my house, also Bono has one, and the guy from Merrion fleet has one. That's 5 I know of in south Dublin.

How are you checking? Saw a figure about BMW i3 sales lately saying there were only 7 reg'd last year, which I'm also dubious about. Didn't GoCar alone buy 6?

Calahonda52

BoatMad wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if DoF accept the proposal to remove BIK on EVs. That would be a huge shot in the arm for high end EVs here , like Tesla.

To the folk who can most afford to pay the BIK and who pay bugger all Income tax here anyway with all the tax sheltering schemes, residence scams and other tweeks

spyderski

The Tesla rep was talking about the BIK thing too, said it would be a game changer for them. Have to agree that BIK breaks will benefit high earners more, and would effectively be a Tesla subsidy for rich people. Business users are already incentivised enough with the 1 year capital write-off allowance.

Much fairer ways could be found to incentivise EV's. How about income tax credits based on estimated annual repayments for a Leaf or similar, could work something like the cycle-to-work scheme?

unkel

spyderski wrote: »

would effectively be a Tesla subsidy for rich people.

Rich people have been subsidised for almost 10 years now since the VRT rates and motor tax on new cars were cut to almost nothing. And that was for cancer causing diesels. At least now it would be for clean EVs.

It won't benefit me, but I'm all in favour for zero BIK on Teslas.

cros13

I would point out that idiots like me have to buy/lease these fancy cars new and suffer the depreciation/higher lease rates so that they can reach the 2nd hand market at all.

And don't underestimate the halo effect plenty of high end long range EVs visible on the road can give the rest of the EV market.

Calahonda52

cros13 wrote: »

I would point out that idiots like me have to buy/lease these fancy cars new and suffer the depreciation/higher lease rates so that they can reach the 2nd hand market at all.

And don't underestimate the halo effect plenty of high end long range EVs visible on the road can give the rest of the EV market.

More like prozac rather than halo for us proletariat peering out of our steamed-up Leafs or huddling around clapped out charging points etc:D

Sabre Man

spyderski wrote: »

The Tesla rep was talking about the BIK thing too, said it would be a game changer for them. Have to agree that BIK breaks will benefit high earners more, and would effectively be a Tesla subsidy for rich people. Business users are already incentivised enough with the 1 year capital write-off allowance.

Much fairer ways could be found to incentivise EV's. How about income tax credits based on estimated annual repayments for a Leaf or similar, could work something like the cycle-to-work scheme?

It would also lead to cheaper second-hand Teslas, which can only be a good thing.

BoatMad

spyderski wrote: »

The Tesla rep was talking about the BIK thing too, said it would be a game changer for them. Have to agree that BIK breaks will benefit high earners more, and would effectively be a Tesla subsidy for rich people. Business users are already incentivised enough with the 1 year capital write-off allowance.

Much fairer ways could be found to incentivise EV's. How about income tax credits based on estimated annual repayments for a Leaf or similar, could work something like the cycle-to-work scheme?

A proprietary company director pays more tax then a PAYE worker , for your information, and payes ALL such income taxes through the PAYE system and receives no extra allowances , in fact receives LESS allowances then a equivalent PAYE worker ( because they dont receive the PAYE credit )


most people have ZERO idea how business people are taxed

BoatMad

Calahonda52 wrote: »

To the folk who can most afford to pay the BIK and who pay bugger all Income tax here anyway with all the tax sheltering schemes, residence scams and other tweeks

people paying " bugger all " income tax will not be in the BIK net anyway

zilog_jones

spyderski wrote: »

Not sure if he was talking 32 counties, but 9 would seem very low. I think I've seen more than that myself. There's 3 within 1km of my house, also Bono has one, and the guy from Merrion fleet has one. That's 5 I know of in south Dublin.

How are you checking? Saw a figure about BMW i3 sales lately saying there were only 7 reg'd last year, which I'm also dubious about. Didn't GoCar alone buy 6?

http://www.beepbeep.ie/stats/

Actually I missed used imports - there were 6 in 2017, but no other records any other year. There may be some recorded incorrectly, i.e. not as a "Tesla".

Gumbo

spyderski wrote: »

Not sure if he was talking 32 counties, but 9 would seem very low. I think I've seen more than that myself. There's 3 within 1km of my house, also Bono has one, and the guy from Merrion fleet has one. That's 5 I know of in south Dublin.

How are you checking? Saw a figure about BMW i3 sales lately saying there were only 7 reg'd last year, which I'm also dubious about. Didn't GoCar alone buy 6?

Bono I believe has a P100d

cros13

zilog_jones wrote: »

http://www.beepbeep.ie/stats/

Actually I missed used imports - there were 6 in 2017, but no other records any other year. There may be some recorded incorrectly, i.e. not as a "Tesla".

I think Tesla are not reporting new sales at all. Which is consistent with their policy in other jurisdictions.

zilog_jones

That site is taking data of new registrations from the VRO - not new sales. It includes private imports. 15 Teslas in the Republic + 15 in NI sounds pretty plausible.

discostu1

I dont know the model but there is a gorgeous black Tesla driving around Cork 151 D I think

spyderski

BoatMad wrote: »

A proprietary company director pays more tax then a PAYE worker , for your information, and payes ALL such income taxes through the PAYE system and receives no extra allowances , in fact receives LESS allowances then a equivalent PAYE worker ( because they dont receive the PAYE credit )


most people have ZERO idea how business people are taxed

"For your information" I have a very good idea, because I am one. I take it that you feel it's sensible fiscal policy to incentivise a proprietary director to buy a €220,000 car by allowing him to pay less (0%) BIK than a sales rep who is driving a 3 year old Avensis?

If you spent 2 minutes thinking about it I'm sure you could come up with EV purchase incentives which were more balanced and fair than giving a blanket BIK exemption.

It's all academic anyway, I just can't see Dept. of Finance signing off on it.

Dardania

spyderski wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

A proprietary  company director pays more tax then a PAYE worker , for your information, and payes ALL such income taxes through the PAYE system and receives no  extra allowances , in fact receives LESS allowances then a equivalent PAYE worker ( because they dont receive the PAYE credit )


most people have ZERO idea how business people are taxed

"For your information" I have a very good idea, because I am one. I take it that you feel it's sensible fiscal policy to incentivise a proprietary director to buy a €220,000 car by allowing him to pay less (0%) BIK than a sales rep who is driving a 3 year old Avensis?

If you spent 2 minutes thinking about it I'm sure you could come up with EV purchase incentives which were more balanced and fair than giving a blanket BIK exemption.

It's all academic anyway, I just can't see Dept. of Finance signing off on it.

Maybe they would, as they also pay for not meeting emissions targets for the country?