Railway electrification

Jamie2k9

Figel2 wrote: »

Before the network can be electrified fully several things need to happen first Dart Underground needs to be built and then electrification can be expanded .It is the centre of the Irish rail net .

For total electrification a tunnel or bridge needs to be built to Whales (EU desire )

That would be an excuse which IE would use. There is no reason why Cork/Belfast couldn't be done.

L1011

Figel2 wrote: »

Before the network can be electrified fully several things need to happen first Dart Underground needs to be built and then electrification can be expanded .It is the centre of the Irish rail net .

For total electrification a tunnel or bridge needs to be built to Whales (EU desire )

Neither of these are required to start or even totally complete electrification

BoatMad

Figel2 wrote: »

Before the network can be electrified fully several things need to happen first Dart Underground needs to be built and then electrification can be expanded .It is the centre of the Irish rail net .

For total electrification a tunnel or bridge needs to be built to Whales (EU desire )

as to why we would want to see whales by train I cant fathom, personally I think dolphins are friendlier

BoatMad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That would be an excuse which IE would use. There is no reason why Cork/Belfast couldn't be done.

I see no point in a partial electrification , what advantages would it give over current diesel operation ?

A1ACo

A National Rail Electrification (continual/rolling) Programme?

It was posted in the Dart+ (DART Expansion) chat e.g. page 298, and somewhere a link to a recent Irish Rail presentation, that the current Irish Rail Implementation Programme for rail projects included below for electrification: 

2030:

DART+ 1.5kv DC - Heuston & Connolly to Hazelhatch/Celbridge station (South West (Cork/ Limerick) route)

            1.5kv DC - Connolly to Maynooth & M3 Parkway stations (West (Sligo) route)

            1.5kv DC - Malahide to Drogheda station (Coastal North (Belfast) route)

2040:

‘Electrification Cork-Dublin-Belfast and Limerick’

[continuation of DART+ routes – South West, and Coastal North - but at 25kv AC]

2050:

‘Electrification of Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Waterford’

[further cont. of DART+ route – South West]

--------------------------------------------------------------------

However, some previous discussions on these boards in the last few years, e.g. Enterprise Refurbishment (intercity Belfast route upgrades), and electrification of Irish rail, have opined that;

while the idea of electrification of Intercity services from Dublin to Belfast, and Cork were nice ideas…

– That in terms of Road Traffic congestion relief, and lowering pollution, and passenger numbers –

….That Electrification of Suburban Rail services into the Cities should probably take priority…

In this stream, an alternative/ alteration - to the above Implementation Programme - for electrification could be argued as below? (to include refurbed (to 25kv AC?) original 8100s DARTs (instead of their scrapping) and - as insurance in case of any teething/ serious teething of new DART fleets):-

Alternative:

2030:

DART+ 1.5kv DC - Heuston & Connolly to Hazelhatch/Celbridge station (South West (Cork/ Limerick) route)

            1.5kv DC - Connolly to Maynooth & M3 Parkway stations (West (Sligo) route)

            1.5kv DC - Malahide to Drogheda station (Coastal North (Belfast) route)

Electrification- City Shuttles (using refurbishes DART 8100s as suburban shuttles)

           Cork Suburban

                    Galway to Athenry

           Waterford to Kilkenny

                        Limerick to Nenagh

                       Athlone to Tullamore

                       Greystones to Wicklow

                       Drogheda to Dundalk

& Before...2040: 

Fill-in blanks of City Shuttles along ‘Electrification Cork-Dublin-Belfast and Limerick’

[continuation of DART+ routes – South West, and Coastal North - but at 25kv AC]

2050:

Fill-in blanks of City Shuttles along ‘Electrification of Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Waterford’

[further cont. of DART+ route – South West]

 & then Fill-in blank to Belfast (Newry only?…) 

Plenty of scope for argument?!

A1ACo

Other related Electrification discussions below:

DART+ (DART Expansion) - Page 298 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Cost of electrification of Railway line — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans - Page 17 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Wider electrification of rail around Dublin — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Why don't they use more electrified railway lines in ireland? — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

Enterprise refurbishment comes closer? - Page 14 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

&

A September, 2022 document:

Medium‐voltage DC electric railway systems: A review on feeding arrangements and power converter topologies - Sharifi - 2022 - IET Electrical Systems in Transportation - Wiley Online Library

(re: MVDC (medium voltage DC) & SNCF Réseau 9kv DC c.2019 study etc.)

GerardKeating

What's the advantage of doing the main lines at  25kv AC, rather than 1.5kv DC, given the size of the island.

Would it not make sense to have the entire country on the same standard..

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858531#Comment_120858531

1.5 DC is more expensive and is a legacy issue that intended to phased (heh) out over the lifetime of the new rolling stock.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861407#Comment_120861407

It's apparently even more than that. 1.5 DC is especially unsuited for long-distance intercity as you need much more substations to feed in the power. It's notable that many countries which started out with DC have had most of their recent electrification projusts us 25Kv AC.

Dual-voltage electric motive power is no big deal these days: loads of places seem to do it.

Economics101

There is a leaked Irish Times report of what the Strategic all-Ireland Rail Review will contain. Plenty of nonsence about rialways to Donegal and a Ballina-Rosslare rail "spine". Not a dickeybird in the IT report about electrification.

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/07/17/atlantic-railway-spine-from-ballina-to-rosslare-and-higher-speed-intercity-travel-proposed-in-rail-review/

Either hopeless journalism or a rubbish rail review: take your pick.

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861889#Comment_120861889

Struggling to think of the high freight volumes that travel Rosslare to Ballina that would justify this - let's hope the EU don't spend a penny on this and leave it to the govt to justify to their own taxpayers

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861911#Comment_120861911

there doesn't need to be freight specifically between the exact 2 destinations.

rather the spine allows for multiple different journey destinations for passengers and freight without going through the congested dublin and kildare areas.

rosslare to belfast or to sligo is effectively a spine even though there are no direct services between the 2.

cgcsb

I would say the IT is just plucking at 'sexy' parts of the report. The readers don't care about double tracking, electrification, journey time reductions etc.

But would agree, any report mentioning the 2 in same breath is toilet paper. The wrc should be in an aspirational final chapter only.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861911#Comment_120861911

I may have given the wrong impression: my real beef whas that the "report" as leaked does not seem to mention electrification. Electrification should be a system-wide issue for the long-term. Given that we are beien made electrify our cars, you might think that the topic would be given due prominence.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861911#Comment_120861911

Ballina to Waterford is already an established and busy flows. Foynes is coming on stream soon so very easy to justify it.

A1ACo

It would seem interesting if there is not much in the report about electrification, in that if introducing more public transport is a first step towards 'decarbonisation', then a second step would be decarbonising public transport itself i.e. moving away from diesel trains, and towards electric trains (and hopefully overall not overloaded with batteries regards parts of trips with no electric wires overhead e.g. the future DART+ trains).

The previous chats\ forums noted above discuss 25kv AC as the modern standard for new lines - though noting that any new rail lines in Europe\the world are almost inevitably high-speed lines, and long distance, where the most power possible is needed, and less substations would be a benefit...

Also, in Europe anyway, a good few of these lines would also be linking into other countries high-speed lines also of 25kv AC.

That been said, for all the noise about new (high-speed network) lines being 25kv AC, a very large proportion of Europe's main lines, including 'classic' original 'higher' speed lines e.g. 200kph up to 250kph maximum potential speed lines e.g. Spain and Italy, are electrifed at 3kv DC (and not to mention, Germany, etc. At 15kv AC). These interesting large proportions of non-25kv AC lines can be seen for example, on the European Railway Server list of railways.

The previous forums also mentioned that the original 1970s/80s pre-DART study had ruled out 25kv AC for DART, due to wire clearance/ arc issues, and 3kv DC for some technical query issue, and that 1.5kv DC was the compromise.

The c.2019 pre-DART+ electrification study mentioned same re 25kv AC, but appeared to quickly dismiss 3kv DC and noted it as planned to be replaced in (smaller, ex-soviet) countries with 25kv ac, but did not seem to mention if it had clearance\ arc issues too, or any benefits it might have.

Not sure if 15kv AC was mentioned as having any benefits/ less clearance\ arc issues (notwithstanding 15kv AC, like 25kv AC, also is a different type of electrification, with need for transformers on board trains, making them heavier, and apparent other hurdles in terms of insulating trackside equipment, and the national/ local electrical (ESB) network).

A1ACo

Anyway, electrification - whether at 1.5kv and/ or 3kv DC systems (note - the Netherlands 'Prorail' infrastructure group seems to promote the idea of converting it's mostly 1.5kv DC system to 3kv DC for various reasons - including cost wise instead of to 25kv AC), and twinned with 25kv AC on long- distance/ higher speed parts of the Irish system, as is common in western European countries, should probably have a fair deal of prominence in any report, regards decarbonisation, and more viable commuter/ urban rail services.

Note also, there seem to have been some instances in Europe of trains either 'stepping down' their 3kv DC power, to 1.5kv DC in the past, or switching over in more modern controlled trains, e.g. in Italian trains, when crossing different systems/ countries.

Also, if intercity services are planned long-term, to be electrified in Ireland anyway - then for the benefit of both earlier decentralisation, and decarbonisation of the nation - the seeding other cities and towns in the country with their own 'DARTS' (shuttles) along those routes may be of help, and could help promote growth and passenger numbers on those lines, for the future inter-city services ... and could tie into more long-distance versions of the planned DART+ trains with part electric line and part battery operation... This been a stepping stone approach to all of the above.

Noting also, that the population density would not be great along those city/town environs lines but, to is could also be a case for 'Build it and they will come'.

I'll finally note that, for another electrification example, besides been mostly electrified at 3kv DC - Belgium seems to be in the last 5 years, extending a small number of its less busy lines with continued 3kv DC, but has also changed over a seemingly busier 3kv DC line, into 25kv AC, via some innovative process.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873947#Comment_120873947

You give some interesting examples of different electrification systems. Here is another, with obvious parallels to Ireland. Portugal electrified part of the Lisbon suburban network (The Lisbon-Cascais line) at 1.5kv DC in the 1920s. When they started system-wide electrification post WW2 they decided on 25Kv AC for all new heavy rail projects.

Now, given that the Cascais line rolling stock and lineside electrical equipment needs replacement they have decided to convert it to 25Kv AC. They seem to feel that even for a DART-like suburban line that this is the best choice. I'm not an electrical engineer, but from what I have read, 25Kv AC is definitely best for longer distances. It seems to work well enough in the UK suburban networks as well. (excluding the Southern, of course)

Should be some fun in managing this change on a busy suburban line.

goingnowhere

The Irish Rail plans are for 25kV Hazelhatch-Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford + Drogheda - Belfast

The DRRTS study ruled out 25kV. Construction costs. Weight of carrying a transformer around impacting on purchase cost and also running costs (more weight needs more power). 3000V DC was never discussed, only 750/150025kV. DRRTS is somewhat influenced by the Tyne & Wear Metro plans

Dual voltage 1500+25kV is the easiest config to build, its the most common dual voltage combination

A1ACo

For reference, the 2019 report was the - 'DART Expansion rail electrification assessment of 08/04/2019, and it also noted that the preference of a - 2011 - 'GDA rail electrification network study' was for 1.5kv DC for DART network expansion. I didn't see in passing, any particular reference to the DRRTS ( Dublin rail rapid transit study) of 1975.

Some of the Netherlands studies re 1.5kv DC into 3kv DC reports include : thesis that was '...a joint assignment of ProRail and Delft University of Technology' in 2017 -

'The Contribution of 3kv DC traction power supply system to railway capacity in the Netherlands' by DCL Reijnen, and

...with one of the thesis advisors and assessors (Zoeteman, A.) also a colleague of Reijnen, from ProRail, seeming to be one of the authors of journal articles 2014 '-

'Analysis of the business case for introducing a 3kv traction power supply in Dutch railways' (WIT Press),

and noting a similar 3kv DC conversion article in 2013, and another similar article/study in 2017 - for ProRail and NS (See the bibliography of the above thesis for a fuller list and details) on introduction of conversion from NS/ ProRail's 1.5kv DC system into 3kv DC.

A1ACo

The above 2019 report also mentioned I think, a 2015 study for a fairly unique (for Spain) urban standard guage and 1.5kv DC line for Barcelona to Valle's, and it's potential conversion, into 25kv AC,.. interesting in a country of generally of 3kv DC and broad guage for classic/ urban lines etc. - though I don't see any quick reference online to that line been converted or not since 2015.

The Dutch thesis I think noted a stated 40% operational energy saving, with 25kv AC, over the NS existing 1.5kv DC Main line system..

I'm going to note a comparison then to the also noted Netherlands studies, and ProRail website, stating a forecast 20% operational energy saving with 3kv DC, over existing their existing 1.5kv DC.

The Netherlands thesis also mentioned a modeled 'smoother' acceleration on a line with a difficult gradient, with 3kv DC, as opposed to with existing 1.5kv DC - this could for example, point to some utility for 3kv DC on the Irish Rail gradient etc on the northern line towards the border?

It also noted that a Lloyds document listed as 30% greater traction effort with 3kv DC, versus 1.5kv DC, and that this could be investigated with existing stock and conversion of same to 3kv DC for testing.

The 2019 Irish report contains a number of interesting and informative checks and balances, and comparisons regards 1.5kv DC Vs. full 25kv AC conversion, or part use etc.

It would be interesting (I think!)... to see 3kv DC comparisons to be inserted into the report... and maybe to see if recent energy inflation has changed any of the calculations - Notwithstanding -

...the overarching conclusion of the 2019 report - for the GDA anyway, was that the long term savings of 25 kv AC - did not overcome the short, and medium term, capital, and other costs of part, or all system conversion and use in new parts of the system with 25 kv AC versus just keeping 1.5kv DC in the existing system and extending 1.5kv to be system.

A1ACo

Other Netherland’s thesis, and documents, for possible NS railway electrical conversion include e.g.

‘Operational Transitions in Railway Infrastructure’

(Maurits De Hek, 2021) – submitted to/ with Technological University Delft, and ProRail, and other articles e.g. from 2016/ 2018, that advocated/ studied for NS & ProRail, conversion of the Netherlands rail electrical system from 1.5kv DC, into 3kv DC. 

The thesis contained some of the points below: -

Belgian electrical current for its 3kv DC system, is 2500 amperes (Amp.), so its maximum electrical power available to trains is 7.5MW.

The Italian electrical current for its 3kv DC system, is 4000 amperes (Amp.), so its maximum electrical power available to trains is a higher 12MW.

It was also stated, that the Netherlands electrical current for its 1.5kv DC system, is 4000 amperes (Amp.), so its maximum electrical power to its trains is 6MW (half the Italian power).

 

Does anyone know for comparison, what Irish Rail’s electrical current for its 1.5kv DC system, is in amperes (Amp.), and its maximum electrical power to trains?

 

It was also noted, that to use the Netherland’s 1.5kv ‘Sprinter Lighttrains’ (Bombardier and Siemens), at 3kv DC, that a - ‘down Chopper’ - has to be installed, to convert 3kv DC, into 1200v-1950v, so that a Sprinter Light Train, with 10 carriages...

- would have 30% more power at 3kv DC - than with its current 1.5kv DC feed.  

Otherwise note, that the information provided in the Irish Rail Questionnaire, to prospective tenderers for a 8100 series DARTs - Extended Operation Review/extended lifespan recommendations - earlier this year, stated that the 2006-2008 refurbishment of the 8100 Class DARTs, had included:

‘In addition, the original GEC Alsthom traction equipment was completely replaced with a modern Siemens Chopper control traction system. Window frames….’

 

(according to that questionnaire the contract award/ issue of notifications was June, 2023 – also does anyone know if any tenders were received/ contracts given for the review?)

A1ACo

These Netherlands documents studying a 1.5kv DC, into 3kv DC switch, estimated a 20% reduction in energy usage – provided that…

amperes (AMP.) remained at 4000 amperes (AMP.) 

-       so doubling the 6MW power at 1.5kv DC - up to 12MW power - under 3kv DC.

 

The documents indicate that the switch would take 7-10 years (perhaps regards the large number circa 234 rail substations in Netherlands? vs. c.13 existing for Irish Rail?) - with clusters of substations converted at the same time.

They also state that a conversion approach could include all trains, and substations, modified to bi-current systems, so that trains operate during conversion, and drive under both power systems, and with additional Transformers i think to be added to substations for the conversion.

Further noted, were the possibility of using more powered axles on trains, via the discussed potential conversion.

 

On a separate note, in Spain there were recent EU supported projects, to add to existing 3kv DC substations, to allow for better recovery of braking energy i.e. Regenerative Braking – these additions were not cheap, but were estimated to have overall energy usage/ cost reductions.

(other articles indicated that better levels of braking energy recovery possible with 3kv DC, than with 1.5kv DC).

A1ACo

RE: my message at no.83 above - does anyone know of any tender responses, and/ or further decisions, regarding the Irish Rail tender for a 8100 series DARTs - 'Extended Operation Review/extended lifespan' programme? The tender deadline is almost past exactly a year ago now this month.

On a separate note - is it my imagination, or has DART catenary been recently upgraded with more sturdy looking replacements e.g. along southside line?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904017#Comment_121904017

Parts have, there was a fairly major fault south of DL that kept occuring so I believe parts of the caternary were replaced.