Railway electrification

Stephen15

Surely it's about time we electrified our mainline railway. People say we're not big enough but other European countries such as Denmark which has a similar population as us have them.

Jamie2k9

Stephen15 wrote: »

Surely it's about time we electrified our mainline railway. People say we're not big enough but other European countries such as Denmark which has a similar population as us have them.

Prepared to bank roll it, easily 20 year's off before we see any wide scale electrification. Commuter around Dublin likely within 5-10 though.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Prepared to bank roll it, easily 20 year's off before we see any wide scale electrification. Commuter around Dublin likely within 5-10 though.

one problem with electrification in the next few years (which i think does need to be taken into account) is where would the perfectly good suburban diesels go? cork and limerick have perfectly good stock of their own which should give another 15-25 years service respectively, so the 2900s wouldn't really have a home in either place? irish rail won't entertain returning the 2900s to heuston either. they could of course retire the 26/800s early but they are more flexible and suit the nature of those services better (them being mostly 2 car with the odd 4 car working) so it would be wasteful.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

one problem with electrification in the next few years (which i think does need to be taken into account) is where would the perfectly good suburban diesels go? cork and limerick have perfectly good stock of their own which should give another 15-25 years service respectively, so the 2900s wouldn't really have a home in either place? irish rail won't entertain returning the 2900s to heuston either. they could of course retire the 26/800s early but they are more flexible and suit the nature of those services better (them being mostly 2 car with the odd 4 car working) so it would be wasteful.

Cork commuter will likely expanded, Northern Commuter north of Balbriggan will be much closer to 10 years before electrification and expanded in meantime as for the stock they will be in 10 years:

2600 will be 33 years old in 2026
2800 will be 26 years old in 2026
2900 will be 24 years old in 2026

Can we see the 2600 sticking around longer than 33 years, while great unit for IE surly economics will not favor them.

Captain Chaos

What will be interesting to see is when the 8100 DARTs will be withdrawn due to age. They are 32 years old this year and it's been 9 years since the refurb program. There will be a big EMU order needed to replace them and add capacity at the same time.

Stephen15

Captain Chaos wrote: »

What will be interesting to see is when the 8100 DARTs will be withdrawn due to age. They are 32 years old this year and it's been 9 years since the refurb program. There will be a big EMU order needed to replace them and add capacity at the same time.

I would imagine they'd be gradually phased out I couldn't see been withdrawn all at once.

Captain Chaos

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would imagine they'd be gradually phased out I couldn't see been withdrawn all at once.

Exactly, they'll have to be replaced as they go over time. As is is there are not enough DART units to meet projected demands.

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

What will be interesting to see is when the 8100 DARTs will be withdrawn due to age. They are 32 years old this year and it's been 9 years since the refurb program. There will be a big EMU order needed to replace them and add capacity at the same time.

Dart Underground will likely mark full end of 8100 class or else there will be some complicated scheduling to keep them overground.

Rashers72

Stephen15 wrote: »

People say we're not big enough but other European countries such as Denmark which has a similar population as us have them.

I assume Denmark got a significant increase in public finances once North Sea oil started flowing back in the 80's'. No facts to support my opinion! Just a random thought.

kc56

Rashers72 wrote: »

I assume Denmark got a significant increase in public finances once North Sea oil started flowing back in the 80's'. No facts to support my opinion! Just a random thought.

I'm not sure if Denmark has oil but it does have access to cheap, Norwegian, hydro electricity. And, of course a much higher population density.

Cost of electrification outside of heavily used commuter routes is prohibitive even with saving in rolling stock, maintenance and energy. The DU did envisage electrification of lines to Maynooth, Balbriggan and Hazelhatch and a large purchase of EMUs. I presume that the DMU would go to serve the longer commuter routes but that was before the recession and the expanded 22 fleet.

Infini

Captain Chaos wrote: »

What will be interesting to see is when the 8100 DARTs will be withdrawn due to age. They are 32 years old this year and it's been 9 years since the refurb program. There will be a big EMU order needed to replace them and add capacity at the same time.

Yeah I've heard that the 8100 series as well are really on their last legs and within the next 10 years a major EMU purchasing and expansion program is gonna be needed with the eventual DART expansion to balbriggan and elsewhere.

highdef

But the 8100 series were virtually rebuilt only a few years ago, as mentioned. how could they already be "on their last legs"? I would have assumed that the mid-life refurb programme would've added at least 20 years of good usable life to them?

Jamie2k9

highdef wrote: »

But the 8100 series were virtually rebuilt only a few years ago, as mentioned. how could they already be "on their last legs"? I would have assumed that the mid-life refurb programme would've added at least 20 years of good usable life to them?

11 years ago it started, most recent refurbs would be 9 years old, most trains need major overhaul every 10 years

Captain Chaos

They did get a good 23 year run in service before the refrubs though. But in the early 2000s they really were starting to look knackered and failures started to become more frequent. I was on two sets that had brake failures and one set had a partial power failure on morning. The last 2 of a 6 car set lost all power, this was a rush hour morning train and everyone was just standing in there wedged in complete darkness all the lights went out and the emergencies didn't kick in. The driver only found out by the station monitor.

I can't see them going for 23 years again. I reckon they have about another 5 in them, they would want to start looking for replacements now and start the tendering process.

Infini

One thing to remember as well is the 1st batch of units were built back in 1982 and even tho they didnt enter service till 1985 they'd be still close to 35 years old at this point. Money was wasted on the refurb by Fearns as well he spent money on unneeded ICR trains instead of ploughing the money into replacing the old fleet entirely with more modern japanese EMU models. Take into account the older trains cost more to maintain as theyre having to replace parts more and more and you see where im coming from.

Captain Chaos

Those ICRs are needed now. There is a shortage of them on peak Dublin area services. A 6 ICR set to Drogheda at 5pm is not enough, an 8 car 29K would be better suited capacity wise over comfort. Overall there is not enough rolling stock on the network at peak times.

On the flipside on off peak times there is hardly enough spare to store the excess 29K sets in the Connolly area.

Infini

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Those ICRs are needed now. There is a shortage of them on peak Dublin area services. A 6 ICR set to Drogheda at 5pm is not enough, an 8 car 29K would be better suited capacity wise over comfort. Overall there is not enough rolling stock on the network at peak times.

On the flipside on off peak times there is hardly enough spare to store the excess 29K sets in the Connolly area.

Maybe but ICRs are not suitable for rush hour commuting theyre too narrow in the interior and a nightmare for those on the platform as they restrict movement and have increased dwell over the 29000's as a result.

end of the road

Infini2 wrote: »

Maybe but ICRs are not suitable for rush hour commuting theyre too narrow in the interior and a nightmare for those on the platform as they restrict movement and have increased dwell over the 29000's as a result.

i think he was agreeing with that. i also agree with you. the problem is however ICR sets on the connolly side are maintained at droghida, meaning either an ECS move or running in service. as i said, whoever decided to have their principal maintenence depots for trains serving dublin outside dublin, should be banned from making decisians again

Stephen15

The ICRs were a silly investment on the part of ir. They are designed to be intercity trains which could be served by mk3s would be perfectly good with a bit of tlc. If they needed more commuter trains they they should have gone something similar to the 29k which would be much better for commuter routes.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

The ICRs were a silly investment on the part of ir. They are designed to be intercity trains which could be served by mk3s would be perfectly good with a bit of tlc. If they needed more commuter trains they they should have gone something similar to the 29k which would be much better for commuter routes.

the problem was there were not enough mk3s to go around had they kept them, so the ICRS were needed.

tabbey

end of the road wrote: »

the problem was there were not enough mk3s to go around had they kept them, so the ICRS were needed.

They would not have needed so many ICRs if the Mk III coaches had not been prematurely scrapped.

Mk III would be more appropriate on principal mainline services, although ICRs have better acceleration for stopping services.

end of the road

tabbey wrote: »

They would not have needed so many ICRs if the Mk III coaches had not been prematurely scrapped.

Mk III would be more appropriate on principal mainline services, although ICRs have better acceleration for stopping services.

i think we still would have needed the same amount of sets even with the mk3, seeing as the rolling stock monster likes swallowing them up dispite there being more sets then we ever had loco hauled sets.

Jamie2k9

Are we really going over the ICR debate almost 10 years since they entered services.

The facts are IE financial position would be much worse, service levels reduced and old stock running around the country. Don't get me wrong the Mark III were great but even with a refurb they would never compare to the ICR's.

As for Intercity/Commuter yes not designed for very high density commuter routes but currently it's the best solution short term. There is also a very good case for Dundalk commuter first/last stop before the city center been Donabate or at a push Malahide but line capacity doesn't allow for this. Bet if it was the case ICR's would be a good fit on the route.

With a batch 2700 coming back in the next 12-18 months it may help with getting ICR's off major commuter routes.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The facts are IE financial position would be much worse, service levels reduced and old stock running around the country. Don't get me wrong the Mark III were great but even with a refurb they would never compare to the ICR's.

its hard to know about service levels reducing. cork to bi-hourly at a stretch maybe. however i couldn't see it happening (politically it wouldn't look good if anything) but anything is possible i guess.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

As for Intercity/Commuter yes not designed for very high density commuter routes but currently it's the best solution short term.

thing is it isn't a good solution at all, from the couple of times i have seen them on suburbans they really don't look to me as if they can handle the large amount of traffic they are being asked to handle. in my personal view its more about cutting the ECS moves or other operational conveniences, and therefore nothing will change in terms of their operations. (i agree about cutting ECS moves in theory)

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

With a batch 2700 coming back in the next 12-18 months it may help with getting ICR's off major commuter routes.

i would doubt it tbh. i can't see ICRS ever coming off suburban routes 2700 or no 2700. wonder are the 2700s having their couplings fixed so they can work in multiple again, or will the 2800s return to dublin and the 2700s to limerick?

Captain Chaos

I never thought the 2700s would be considered back for service seeing as Irish Rail put them all up for sale.

The 2700s can work in multiple, their is nothing wrong with their couplers anymore. That was all in the past. Still they are not the most reliable and need far more maintenance than the 26 or 2800s. They were terrible at keeping time on the Rosslare route too, the 2800s were great on that run.

cgcsb

We can't even get a few measly CPOs to keep DARTu going, so I doubt our anti-rail FG lot will pony up the dough. Pending their removal from govt. though electrification of mainline would be fantastic. EMUs capable of 250km/hr averaging around 210 km/hr would suit Ireland perfectly allowing people to cross the country in 90 mins.

Before that though we need to get serious about rail in the Dublin region. things cannot continue as is.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I never thought the 2700s would be considered back for service seeing as Irish Rail put them all up for sale.

i think IE maybe realizing they are needed after all?

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The 2700s can work in multiple, their is nothing wrong with their couplers anymore. That was all in the past. Still they are not the most reliable and need far more maintenance than the 26 or 2800s.

oh i didn't know that they fixed the coupling issue. i always thought that IE didn't bother in the end and just left them as 2 car. oh i agree, still though they were a lot better then the other product we got from their constructors.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

They were terrible at keeping time on the Rosslare route too, the 2800s were great on that run.

oh don't i know, i remember the little julting backwards and forwards the 2700s used to do while "trying" to run along the route. horrid horrid things. the 2800s did well but are noisy things and as for the seats, a concrete block is more comfortable

loyatemu

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Dart Underground will likely mark full end of 8100 class or else there will be some complicated scheduling to keep them overground.

DART Underground has effectively been cancelled. Planning has lapsed and it has no further work planned on it.

Infini

cgcsb wrote: »

We can't even get a few measly CPOs to keep DARTu going, so I doubt our anti-rail FG lot will pony up the dough. Pending their removal from govt. though electrification of mainline would be fantastic. EMUs capable of 250km/hr averaging around 210 km/hr would suit Ireland perfectly allowing people to cross the country in 90 mins.

Before that though we need to get serious about rail in the Dublin region. things cannot continue as is.

Yeah I'd agree with you there Rail has far greater capacity and badly needs new investment and some new management expecially people who know how things run and can deliver actual improvements as well as work with their staff not the current lot. Fine Gael are hopefully on the way out and maybe someone with real interest in improving things might step in. EU report there as well mentioned public transport in dublin is crap as well.

Jamie2k9

its hard to know about service levels reducing. cork to bi-hourly at a stretch maybe. however i couldn't see it happening (politically it wouldn't look good if anything) but anything is possible i guess.

Not Cork but service increases such as happened on Galway/Westport etc and the morning express services from Galway/Waterford would not be in place.

i would doubt it tbh. i can't see ICRS ever coming off suburban routes 2700 or no 2700. wonder are the 2700s having their couplings fixed so they can work in multiple again, or will the 2800s return to dublin and the 2700s to limerick?

Suspect 2700 will move to Limerick/Ballina/WRC and 2800's will return to Dublin.

I never thought the 2700s would be considered back for service seeing as Irish Rail put them all up for sale.

The 2700s can work in multiple, their is nothing wrong with their couplers anymore. That was all in the past. Still they are not the most reliable and need far more maintenance than the 26 or 2800s. They were terrible at keeping time on the Rosslare route too, the 2800s were great on that run.

Word is 5 or 6 will be back.

DART Underground has effectively been cancelled. Planning has lapsed and it has no further work planned on it.

It will at some point happen in some way but not for a long time.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Suspect 2700 will move to Limerick/Ballina/WRC and 2800's will return to Dublin.

that is what i suspect as well, all though the 26 and 2800s do make a nice little common fleet between cork and limerick.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Word is 5 or 6 will be back.

is that all? i hope it isn't and they bring the vast majority back (obviously i would get all can't come back as a couple of units will be needed for parts)

loyatemu

Jamie2k9 wrote:

It will at some point happen in some way but not for a long time.

"It" may turn out to be a Luas or Metro line though, DartU is dead, planning notices have started going up for some of the sites that were to be compulsorily purchased.

nokia69

end of the road

nokia69 wrote: »

i remember this coming up here before. the testing has been happening for a while, i don't know if it's complete now and the train gone back into regular service? i think this will have a place but probably not for a good while. would be good if it was made to work, and that the technology could simply be swapped into any diesel unit stock that may exist whenever (if ever) this does become widely availible and reliable.

The Chieftain

The discussion seems to have wandered very far indeed from the original question!

A point I would like to make is that the choice of electrification scheme for the present DART system - 1.5 kV DC - is unsuited for longer distances. This then leads directly to the following unappealing choices:
- Electrify the rest of the system at 1.5 kV, DC. Technically, this would be an awful approach, more expensive and less efficient than, say 25 kV AC. e.g. power loss in 1.5 kV system is 278 times higher than for 25 kV.
- Redo the Dublin electrification from scratch, and convert to 25 kV AC.

The more the present DART system is expanded, the worse this choice gets!

savagethegoat

there's no reason why main line electrification couldn't use a different voltage than suburban. I think dual voltage is possible also.

The Chieftain

savagethegoat wrote: »

there's no reason why main line electrification couldn't use a different voltage than suburban. I think dual voltage is possible also.

While this is possible, it is not very attractive either. First, it is more than a voltage difference, it is also the difference between AC and DC. It would mean that every EMU or electric loco that went beyond the present DART would have to have expensive provision for that. It also introduces complexity and reliability issues. Also, there is the minor issue that I suspect the present 1.5 kV DC electrification is probably simply incapable of providing sufficient power for non-suburban units of higher speed and weight. The limitations are almost certainly built into the whole electrical distribution network - size of the overhead contact wire, power rating and spacing of substations, etc.

savagethegoat

you have entirely ignored that the main lines could be 25Kv AC only, particularly Heuston to Cork which would be first on the list I imagine.

As for dual voltage, can I refer you to "Thameslink", which operates quite sucessfully

The Chieftain

savagethegoat wrote: »

you have entirely ignored that the main lines could be 25Kv AC only, particularly Heuston to Cork which would be first on the list I imagine.

As for dual voltage, can I refer you to "Thameslink", which operates quite sucessfully

They proposed to extend the present DART electrification to the suburban Heuston line, as part of DART underground project.

The point is you want to avoid a Thameslink situation, not repeat it. Right now, it is costing over 5 billion to extend this to mainline services.... which tends to support my point.

cgcsb

With DART Underground in place DART services would run on 2 tracks from Hazelhatch to Inchicore and split off there into a tunnel, allowing intercity routes the remaining 3 tracks into Heuston. So we could have a higher voltage between Heuston and Cork, Galway, Limerick and the DART voltage would be completely separate.

Where you run into trouble is the rest of the DART network. I think we'll just have to concede that it'll always be diesel on the Sligo and Wexford trains.

Belfast means a very difficult quad tracking project which we'll most likely have to do anyway in the future. I would advocated relocating the Belfast line inland, west of the M1 south of Drogheda with a new station at Dublin Airport and then a tunnel between Ballymun and Liffey junction with Belfast services continuing via the PPT to Heuston. Upgrade platform 10 and Start running Cork-Belfast services via Lmrk jnct-Heuston and Dublin Airport. The existing coastal rail line could be exclusively for Drogheda-Hazelhatch DARTS with a 5 minute frequency if need be and no conflict with enterprise trains.

goingnowhere

Back in the 1970's an assessment was made

3rd rail was ruled out, dangerous, issues with flooding and electrically inefficient
1500Vdc Is what we got a balance
3000Vdc greater clearances required plus some questions over the on train equipment and 3000Vdc, fewer substations
25kac For a dedicated suburban service the cost of carrying around a transformer wasn't deemed a good idea, slows down acceleration, increased track, brake wear etc. Electrical clearances also an issue

All trains are fundamentally DC anyway, AC in converted to 1500-2000V DC and then passed through a VVVF inverter to drive a 3phase AC motor. Dual voltage trains are pretty easy, isn't even more expensive if you are already 25KVac all you need is a second pantograph and a circuit breaker everything under the floor is the same

DART underground design was for 1500Vdc but with clearances for 25KVac

Current DART spec is for a dense 8 car service so is modeled at 2-2.5MW per train, thats roughly the power output of a 201 class locomotive

Captain Chaos

Consider aswel that the newer 8500 class DARTs have AC traction motors while the older 8100s have DC. Technology moved on in electric motors greatly since the 80s.

The Eurostar locos are designed to work on 3 different voltage systems through third rail and pantograph. Complicated locos but it can be done, it's easier today to do compared to when they were built.

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

With DART Underground in place DART services would run on 2 tracks from Hazelhatch to Inchicore and split off there into a tunnel, allowing intercity routes the remaining 3 tracks into Heuston. So we could have a higher voltage between Heuston and Cork, Galway, Limerick and the DART voltage would be completely separate.

Where you run into trouble is the rest of the DART network. I think we'll just have to concede that it'll always be diesel on the Sligo and Wexford trains.

Belfast means a very difficult quad tracking project which we'll most likely have to do anyway in the future. I would advocated relocating the Belfast line inland, west of the M1 south of Drogheda with a new station at Dublin Airport and then a tunnel between Ballymun and Liffey junction with Belfast services continuing via the PPT to Heuston. Upgrade platform 10 and Start running Cork-Belfast services via Lmrk jnct-Heuston and Dublin Airport. The existing coastal rail line could be exclusively for Drogheda-Hazelhatch DARTS with a 5 minute frequency if need be and no conflict with enterprise trains.

now that, is called vision. i think it's fair to say that waterford/wexford/sligo/galway/westport trains would all remain diesel, all though i wouldn't have a problem with those lines electrified, if on the very very slight off chance it was to happen.

cgcsb

end of the road wrote: »

now that, is called vision. i think it's fair to say that waterford/wexford/sligo/galway/westport trains would all remain diesel, all though i wouldn't have a problem with those lines electrified, if on the very very slight off chance it was to happen.

I could imagine Galway-Heuston going electric. Perhaps Waterford in the future but that's about it.

savagethegoat

cgcsb wrote: »

I could imagine Galway-Heuston going electric. Perhaps Waterford in the future but that's about it.

I can't imagine any line outside Dublin being electrified. We can't even fettle the tracks to allow an improvement in times over the 1960s

The Chieftain

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The Eurostar locos are designed to work on 3 different voltage systems through third rail and pantograph. Complicated locos but it can be done, it's easier today to do compared to when they were built.

Just to be clear, I never said it could not be done. I also agree that it is now easier to do with "modern" electronics. However, I still assert that it is an unattractive situation, and it is fundamental physics that the power loss using 1.5 kV is 278 times that at 25 kV.

Captain Chaos

The Chieftain wrote: »

Just to be clear, I never said it could not be done. I also agree that it is now easier to do with "modern" electronics. However, I still assert that it is an unattractive situation, and it is fundamental physics that the power loss using 1.5 kV is 278 times that at 25 kV.

I wasn't arguing your point, that's why I didn't quote your post in mine.

The current DART and Luas electrical systems are very unique and are not suited to large scale area operations at all.

The Chieftain

Can I ask where other European countries got the money/will to electrify virtually their ENTIRE systems? Not all are richer or more densely populated than us. Case in point, I remember taking the train from Vilamoura to Lisbon in Portugal around 2002/3. It looked like new 25 kV electrification, with loco hauled coaches, on beautifully maintained track. AFAIR there are only a few trains a day! And Portugal is a much poorer country than Ireland...

Stephen15

The Chieftain wrote: »

Can I ask where other European countries got the money/will to electrify virtually their ENTIRE systems? Not all are richer or more densely populated than us. Case in point, I remember taking the train from Vilamoura to Lisbon in Portugal around 2002/3. It looked like new 25 kV electrification, with loco hauled coaches, on beautifully maintained track. AFAIR there are only a few trains a day! And Portugal is a much poorer country than Ireland...

Alot of countries with less of a coal reserve such as Spain, Portugal and Italy electrified they're lines before the second world war as many of the dictators such as mussolini and Franco feared that there be no coal to power trains during times of war.

cgcsb

The Chieftain wrote: »

Can I ask where other European countries got the money/will to electrify virtually their ENTIRE systems? Not all are richer or more densely populated than us. Case in point, I remember taking the train from Vilamoura to Lisbon in Portugal around 2002/3. It looked like new 25 kV electrification, with loco hauled coaches, on beautifully maintained track. AFAIR there are only a few trains a day! And Portugal is a much poorer country than Ireland...

They have a much more basic welfare state. That's why they have good infrastructure and clean places. Take Dublin's James Joyce bridge, a third of the lights are broken, grass growing out of the drains and covered in liter. Even small Spanish Cities are clean and well maintained compared to our capital.

tabbey

Electrification to Belfast would make a lot of sense, especially if railfreight was restored to this major corridor. Frequent, and relatively fast trains could be operated more efficiently.

Two issues need to be addressed;

Track capacity in the Dublin area is already inadequate. It is a great pity that some four tracking was not developed before DART electrification in the early 1980s. Before any further electrification, can be considered, significant quadrupling must be undertaken. Most importantly the route needs to be protected from lineside development, to allow for future rail expansion.

Voltage : As Chieftain says, there is a greater leakage of current from low tension cables, if 1500v dc was extended to Belfast, there would need to be transformer substations every few miles, and heavy copper wires would be needed throughout the route. The metal thieves would have a field day in the borderland bandit country.

The alternative 25kv ac would need rebuilding of many overbridges in the Dublin area, many at difficult locations from a road point of view. This would be necessary to provide adequate clearance, to avoid current shorting to earth.
The solution is probably dual voltage trains, but these come at a price, greater capital cost, heavier axle load, and the often forgotten, reduced reliability.

As for other mainline routes, forget it, unless there is a massive increase in population, traffic levels could not sustain the capital investment.

Also be thankful we still can enjoy a railway network largely unspoilt by overhead wiring and structures.