Wider electrification of rail around Dublin

CreativeSen

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course if they electrified the Connolly to Maynooth line, Drumcondra would be a Dart Station.

So the must recent chatter I heard about that, and correct me if I am wrong, is that they will electrify north to Balbriggan before West to Maynooth. AFAIK they have no plans to electrify the Maynooth line.

L1011

CreativeSen wrote: »

AFAIK they have no plans to electrify the Maynooth line.

There are plans to electrify the Maynooth line.

It would benefit far more from it than Balbriggan due to station spacing and curvature (electric acceleration is much superior).

thomasj

L1011 wrote:

It would benefit far more from it than Balbriggan due to station spacing and curvature (electric acceleration is much superior).

L1011 wrote:

There are plans to electrify the Maynooth line.

It would make more sense to electrify maynooth line first.

1. Congestion on the northern line

2. You will still need trains for Drogheda and Dundalk if you electrify Balbriggan only, on the maynooth line you've covered the whole line.

3. Integration - you have green line at broombridge, metro at drumcondra and red line at connolly

vrusinov

Maynooth would be a new line, which may need trains, interchanges, depots, etc.
Electrification north is an extension of existing DART line, so should be easier and faster to implement.

MJohnston

vrusinov wrote: »

Maynooth would be a new line, which may need trains, interchanges, depots, etc.
Electrification north is an extension of existing DART line, so should be easier and faster to implement.

That's a bit misleading, it's the existing line, but electrified instead of commuter rail.

DART to the north suffers from the significant problem of being on the Northern Line. It already has capacity problems, without adding more to it. DART to Balbriggan would therefore require additional tracking, which the much lower usage Sligo line would not.

Sam Russell

If the Maynooth service was electrified, then the likely service would be
Bray to Maynooth and Bray to Malahide, with a Howth to Howth Junction shuttle. Some Bray services would continue to Greystones as now.

Of course it could operate Connolly to Maynooth, or even Docklands to Maynooth.

If there is a shortage of rolling stock, the commuter diesels could be used to augment the service during busy times.

If the service is there people will use it - if it is frequent, reliable, and quick.

roadmaster

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the Maynooth service was electrified, then the likely service would be
Bray to Maynooth and Bray to Malahide, with a Howth to Howth Junction shuttle. Some Bray services would continue to Greystones as now.

Of course it could operate Connolly to Maynooth, or even Docklands to Maynooth.

If there is a shortage of rolling stock, the commuter diesels could be used to augment the service during busy times.

If the service is there people will use it - if it is frequent, reliable, and quick.

What's the furthest you could run the dart in theory distance wise?

sdanseo

roadmaster wrote: »

What's the furthest you could run the dart in theory distance wise?

Anywhere you have track can be electrified but assuming you mean for it to be effective, around 50km end to end or max. 45 mins from one end of the line to the city - whichever is greater. Beyond that, people will start to value the seat over the convenience.

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the Maynooth service was electrified, then the likely service would be
Bray to Maynooth and Bray to Malahide, with a Howth to Howth Junction shuttle. Some Bray services would continue to Greystones as now.

Howth should already be a shuttle, I think it's more tradition that keeps it as-is. Capacity on the Northern Line is affected by this and there are a lot more passengers on the Northern Line.

MJohnston

sdanseo wrote: »

Anywhere you have track can be electrified but assuming you mean for it to be effective, around 50km end to end or max. 45 mins from one end of the line to the city - whichever is greater. Beyond that, people will start to value the seat over the convenience.

Arguably we're at a point now where all trains can (and should) be electric, no matter the distances involved. Specifically for DART trains that's probably a good radius to use though.

bk

MJohnston wrote: »

Arguably we're at a point now where all trains can (and should) be electric, no matter the distances involved. Specifically for DART trains that's probably a good radius to use though.

When you start to look at medium to long distance, electric doesn't make sense.

Basically electric is best suited when you have a lot of stations close to one another. So basically urban mass transit type services (DART, LUAS) as you benefit from the faster acceleration/deceleration times at each station.

With intercity, you normally only have a small number of stops (if any) and so you don't really benefit from it. At least not enough benefit for the very high cost of installing it (hundreds of millions).

Sam Russell

roadmaster wrote: »

What's the furthest you could run the dart in theory distance wise?

It really depends on the number of stops. The Darts can travel at up to 100 Km/hr at least. (The earlier trains have a max of 100 k,/hr and later ones 110 km/hr)

I think 45 mins either side of the centre of the city, which gives a radius of up to 45 km. Including stops, I think 30 km is about as far as would be reasonable. Bray is 30 mins from CC, with Greystones another 7 mins or so. Maybe if the traffic was there, Wicklow could be done, but the single track renders that moot. However, Bray is slow between Dunlaoughrie and Dalkey, so not a good measure.

The problems arise from driver shift patterns and passenger patterns - there is no point in going out 30 km with an empty train after the first 10 km. Maynooth is an excellent destination.

donvito99

Iarnrod Eireann have talked about wider electrification once the present fleet needs replacing post 2030.

MJohnston

bk wrote: »

At least not enough benefit for the very high cost of installing it (hundreds of millions).

Ah well, yes, but he did say 'in theory', a realistic assessment is another kettle of fish entirely

I do think we'll reach a point relatively quickly where we could have intercity battery-powered passenger trains. Certainly Irish Rail have been talking about hybrids for a while although those don't contain batteries, but I could see a not-so-distant future where there are "tri-brid" (I just made that up entirely) locomotives, with battery storage primary engine, pantographs for overhead electric running and battery recharging where available, with a rarely-used backup diesel engine.

Again, whether I see that actually happening with Irish Rail is another question, but I think that technology isn't too far away from being affordable for rail operators.

Annnnyyyywaayyyy.

Chivito550

bk wrote: »

When you start to look at medium to long distance, electric doesn't make sense.

Basically electric is best suited when you have a lot of stations close to one another. So basically urban mass transit type services (DART, LUAS) as you benefit from the faster acceleration/deceleration times at each station.

With intercity, you normally only have a small number of stops (if any) and so you don't really benefit from it. At least not enough benefit for the very high cost of installing it (hundreds of millions).

Any intercity train I've got in Western Europe has been electrified. Germany, UK, Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, Austria etc. If the benefit wasn't there, then I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered investing in it.

It's also much better for the environment.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

When you start to look at medium to long distance, electric doesn't make sense.

Basically electric is best suited when you have a lot of stations close to one another. So basically urban mass transit type services (DART, LUAS) as you benefit from the faster acceleration/deceleration times at each station.

With intercity, you normally only have a small number of stops (if any) and so you don't really benefit from it. At least not enough benefit for the very high cost of installing it (hundreds of millions).

No, I would put it the other way. Electric is the only solution for frequent stopping urban trains. Diesels are not suitable because of slow acceleration, noise and pollution. The London Underground has been electric for ever, as has the NY Subway.

On inter-city, electric are king with diesel only being worth considering if there is no overhead wire.

bk

Chivito550 wrote: »

Any intercity train I've got in Western Europe has been electrified. Germany, UK, Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, Austria etc. If the benefit wasn't there, then I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered investing in it.

It's also much better for the environment.

There are many, many, non electrified intercity lines around Europe.

Most of the ones you mention above are High Speed Rail, HSR, that is a whole different story, you absolutely need electrification to do HSR, but then that is a completely different conversation.

If you are just electrifying our existing tracks, without doing actual HSR, then you are spending hundreds of millions, for little or no benefit.

BTW some countries like the Netherlands have electrified without having HSR. The reason being, if you have train frequencies sub 10 minutes, then you need electrification for the reliability of it. We are nowhere near that on our intercity lines.

As for the environmental argument, it is a little bogus. Of course electric trains are better for the environment, but you would have to consider the environmental cost of scrapping the current fleet when they aren't even half way through their life yet and building new trains, doing that would have a very high negative environmental cost.

Also you would have to consider if the 100's of millions it would cost, could be spent in other ways that would have in better environmental impact, for instance, more wind farms, more subsidies to making homes more energy/heat efficient, more subsidies towards EV's etc.

I agree with what MJohnston says above, when it finally comes time to replace our intercity trains, we are more likely to look at hybrid battery biofuel or hybird battery trains then full electrification. Battery tech is advancing at an outstanding rate in EV's and buses and trains are starting to benefit from it too. Most of the benefits of electrification without all the high infrastructure cost.

Sam Russell, absolutely, you are right that electric is king. It is more a case of us simply doing the best with what we have and deciding where to best to invest what little money we have.

Bringing it back to this thread topic, electrifying (not HSR) Cork to Belfast would cost about 1 billion and would give you little in the way of speed improvements. Would that be worth it or would that money be better spent on Metro North?

ClovenHoof

bk wrote: »

There are many, many, non electrified intercity lines around Europe.

Most of the ones you mention above are High Speed Rail, HSR, that is a whole different story, you absolutely need electrification to do HSR, but then that is a completely different conversation.

If you are just electrifying our existing tracks, without doing actual HSR, then you are spending hundreds of millions, for little or no benefit.

BTW some countries like the Netherlands have electrified without having HSR. The reason being, if you have train frequencies sub 10 minutes, then you need electrification for the reliability of it. We are nowhere near that on our intercity lines.

As for the environmental argument, it is a little bogus. Of course electric trains are better for the environment, but you would have to consider the environmental cost of scrapping the current fleet when they aren't even half way through their life yet and building new trains, doing that would have a very high negative environmental cost.

Also you would have to consider if the 100's of millions it would cost, could be spent in other ways that would have in better environmental impact, for instance, more wind farms, more subsidies to making homes more energy/heat efficient, more subsidies towards EV's etc.

I agree with what MJohnston says above, when it finally comes time to replace our intercity trains, we are more likely to look at hybrid battery biofuel or hybird battery trains then full electrification. Battery tech is advancing at an outstanding rate in EV's and buses and trains are starting to benefit from it too. Most of the benefits of electrification without all the high infrastructure cost.

Sam Russell, absolutely, you are right that electric is king. It is more a case of us simply doing the best with what we have and deciding where to best to invest what little money we have.

Bringing it back to this thread topic, electrifying (not HSR) Cork to Belfast would cost about 1 billion and would give you little in the way of speed improvements. Would that be worth it or would that money be better spent on Metro North?

Great post. Emerging Battery Technology will be a game changer.

jim-mcdee

L1011 wrote: »

There are plans to electrify the Maynooth line.

It would benefit far more from it than Balbriggan due to station spacing and curvature (electric acceleration is much superior).

I live in Balbriggan and I couldnt care less whether it is electrified or not. What we want is faster trains. 45 mins to travel the 20 miles to connolly is taking the p. Even on days when there is heavy traffic I beat the train driving 9 out of 10 times. And I have a seat!

Sam Russell

jim-mcdee wrote: »

I live in Balbriggan and I couldnt care less whether it is electrified or not. What we want is faster trains. 45 mins to travel the 20 miles to connolly is taking the p. Even on days when there is heavy traffic I beat the train driving 9 out of 10 times. And I have a seat!

That is a major problem with public transport in Dublin - it is just too slow. Trains need to be reliable, fast, and frequent. The cost comes into it but if the first three are met, the cost will be paid.

The running of diesels south of GCD slows Dart trains down, and when (if) the ten minute Dart service will be slowed more. It would make more sense to terminate all (most) diesels at GCD or Pearse and turn them back at the Boston sidings or at GCD. Of course electric trains to Maynooth would allow a faster turn around.

Bray to Connolly is 22 Km and takes 43 mins which is an average of 30 km/H which is the speed of a cyclist. The Dart trains have a maximum of at least 100 km/h - surely they can manage a bit faster than 30 km/h.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bray to Connolly is 22 Km and takes 43 mins which is an average of 30 km/H which is the speed of a cyclist. The Dart trains have a maximum of at least 100 km/h - surely they can manage a bit faster than 30 km/h.

The average speed of London Underground trains is just 33km/h, so it isn't that unusual.

Of course faster would be nicer, but I think higher frequency and reliability are overall more important.

LeinsterDub

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 'Wider electrification of rail around Dublin' just a other name for expansion of the dart?

Sam Russell

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 'Wider electrification of rail around Dublin' just a other name for expansion of the dart?

Well yes it could be, but I moved these posts from MN and I thought it would not disturb the thrust of the discussion to put it into a new thread. The discussion here appeared to be concentrating on electric aspect.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

The average speed of London Underground trains is just 33km/h, so it isn't that unusual.

Of course faster would be nicer, but I think higher frequency and reliability are overall more important.

That is 10% faster than Dart.

jim-mcdee

bk wrote: »

The average speed of London Underground trains is just 33km/h, so it isn't that unusual.

Of course faster would be nicer, but I think higher frequency and reliability are overall more important.

London underground has a higher average speed than Bray to the city? That's pretty bad. It's underground, stops every minute, and still has a higher average speed. Poor choice of it was intended to defend IR.

Pete_Cavan

What is the benefit in extending DART to Balbriggan? Will Malahide DARTs then run to Balbriggan (meaning longer travel times for people north of Malahide) or will we see new service patterns? North of Balbriggan would still need diesel trains but what level of service can be justified for the four stations north of county Dublin? I don't see any logic in extending DART to Balbriggan.

spacetweek

Sam Russell wrote: »

On inter-city, electric are king with diesel only being worth considering if there is no overhead wire.

Nah definitely not. Check this site for detailed maps on electrification:
www.bueker.net/trainspotting/maps

Pick a place comparable to Ireland like Denmark or Greece or the Baltic states. Not much electrification.

vrusinov

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What is the benefit in extending DART to Balbriggan?

Higher frequency. It is better to wait 15 minutes + spend 45 minutes on the train that to wait 30 minutes + 30 minutes on the train.

There is also a lot of shorter journeys between Balbriggan/Skerries/Rush/Donabate (line seems to be full of school/college students during certain hours) that will benefit from higher frequency and don't really care about speed.

Sam Russell

spacetweek wrote: »

Nah definitely not. Check this site for detailed maps on electrification:
www.bueker.net/trainspotting/maps

Pick a place comparable to Ireland like Denmark or Greece or the Baltic states. Not much electrification.

I think you misread my post. I said that the only reason to use diesel is where there is no provision for running electric trains.

Obviously, it is not economic to change all lines to electric. CIE got rid of horses very a very short time in the 1950s and switched from steam to diesel over a short time as well, also I think in the 1950s.

I think it would be useful for IR to plan electrifying most of the commuter lines into Dublin including the PPT. This would allow the full integration of commuter and Dart services.

bk

jim-mcdee wrote: »

London underground has a higher average speed than Bray to the city? That's pretty bad. It's underground, stops every minute, and still has a higher average speed. Poor choice of it was intended to defend IR.

Brahhhhhh... Did I just get accused of defending Irish Rail!! LOL

I usually get accused of being vehemently, militant, anti-IR!!

My point was that such low speeds are very common for urban mass transit. High speed isn't really the point of mass transit.

Interestingly NYC Subway average speed is just 28km/h, so DART is 10% faster then the NY Subway :P

Interestingly the Paris Metro averages just 20km/h! So DART is about 45% faster then it!

Not that being 10% faster or slower is really all that important when we are talking about speeds around 30km/h, that really wasn't the point I was making.

The point is high speed isn't important for mass transit, non of these services come anywhere near the trains maximum potential speed. Improving frequency (e.g. every 10 minutes) is much more important for DART then ecking out small improvements in speed (though welcome if they can).

roadmaster

When talking about Diesel trains an important thing to remember is in the long term the combustion engine has had its day and will be obsolete. So i would imagine all are trains both dart and intercity will be electrified

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

Brahhhhhh... Did I just get accused of defending Irish Rail!! LOL

I usually get accused of being vehemently, militant, anti-IR!!

My point was that such low speeds are very common for urban mass transit. High speed isn't really the point of mass transit.

Interestingly NYC Subway average speed is just 28km/h, so DART is 10% faster then the NY Subway :P

Interestingly the Paris Metro averages just 20km/h! So DART is about 45% faster then it!

Not that being 10% faster or slower is really all that important when we are talking about speeds around 30km/h, that really wasn't the point I was making.

The point is high speed isn't important for mass transit, non of these services come anywhere near the trains maximum potential speed. Improving frequency (e.g. every 10 minutes) is much more important for DART then ecking out small improvements in speed (though welcome if they can).

Of course the Dart running times were based on the published timetable. The actual running times should include the occasional delays (like every day).

Like I said elsewhere, Frequency, Reliability, and Speed are the important issues with train transport. Not sure how many goody points Dart get on each of those.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Like I said elsewhere, Frequency, Reliability, and Speed are the important issues with train transport. Not sure how many goody points Dart get on each of those.

As a mass transit system?

Very poor on frequency, really not mass transit like at all, really needs to be at least every 10 minutes.

Reliability, ok to poor, could be improved.

Speed, ok, pretty normal for a service like this.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

As a mass transit system?

Very poor on frequency, really not mass transit like at all, really needs to be at least every 10 minutes.

Until they stop running multiple diesels behind each other south of GCD, there will be delays. If they start a ten minute service, the diesels will hold up the Darts unacceptably.

Reliability, ok to poor, could be improved.

Delays, delays, delays.

Speed, ok, pretty normal for a service like this.

They are now slower than when first introduced. There are delays in the GCD to Clontarf regularly. Northbound trains sitting outside GCD waiting, waiting.

Improvements.
They should have fast trains that skip stations. They should run shorter trains off peak. Most off peak trains would not be crowded with two coaches, but comfortably full with four coaches.

They could do live splitting of trains as they do in the UK 'Front four coaches are for Howth, last four coaches are for Malahide'. Or at Dun Laoghaire - 'Front four coaches next stop Bray and then Greystone - Last four coaches all stations to Bray'. That kind of thing.

They could also improve the revenue protection measures. There are a lot of people who do not pay.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

They are now slower than when first introduced. There are delays in the GCD to Clontarf regularly. Northbound trains sitting outside GCD waiting, waiting.

In fairness though, they also have FAR more capacity and carry far more people then they have ever in their history. Capacity is more important then speed.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Improvements.
They should have fast trains that skip stations. They should run shorter trains off peak. Most off peak trains would not be crowded with two coaches, but comfortably full with four coaches.

Maybe, but then your fast trains run into the back of the stopping service and everything ends up going no where.

After all this is why we have issues between non-stop Diesel commuters and DARTS and why is is proving so hard to get the 10 minute DARTS going.

Unless you are talking about full quad tracking of the lines so that stopping and non-stopping services can run side by side. That of course would be great, that is how the u and s-bahn work in Berlin, fully segregated. Unfortunately it would also be horribly expensive to do.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They should run shorter trains off peak. Most off peak trains would not be crowded with two coaches, but comfortably full with four coaches.

No benefit at all to doing this. It just makes things more complicated and expensive as you have to have staff to de/couple the trains. It is only a bit of extra electricity to run the longer trains, less then the staff costs involved and would likely just make things even less reliable.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They could do live splitting of trains as they do in the UK 'Front four coaches are for Howth, last four coaches are for Malahide'. Or at Dun Laoghaire - 'Front four coaches next stop Bray and then Greystone - Last four coaches all stations to Bray'. That kind of thing.

You could, but the thing is you are sort of complicating things, which is the opposite of what you want to do with a mass transit type of service. Generally you want to keep things nice and simple with mass transit.

Howth should simply be a shuttle service, same with Greystones frankly.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They could also improve the revenue protection measures. There are a lot of people who do not pay.

Sure, same across all public transport here. I've always said we should have a dedicated Transport Police service.

L1011

The biggest issue with intercity electrification herr, after all the stock being quite new or just refurbished, is that 1500v DC is less than ideal for long distances and has been retired from non commuter use most places.

Dual system locos are quite dear

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

They are now slower than when first introduced. There are delays in the GCD to Clontarf regularly. Northbound trains sitting outside GCD waiting, waiting.

Bray-Pearse was 30 mins when the Dart started, it's now 40 (with one extra stop) and will be longer again when the 10 minute frequency is introduced. Dwell times are terrible and the timetable is really padded.

LeinsterDub

loyatemu wrote: »

Bray-Pearse was 30 mins when the Dart started, it's now 40 (with one extra stop) and will be longer again when the 10 minute frequency is introduced. Dwell times are terrible and the timetable is really padded.

How much of that is down to congestion from mainline trains and how much is caused by level crossings?

loyatemu

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How much of that is down to congestion from mainline trains and how much is caused by level crossings?

the number of level crossings hasn't changed since 1983, the actual gates and signalling have presumably been upgraded.

as for mainline trains, there are a couple of extra Rosslare line trains per day, but there's no freight anymore so they probably cancel each other out. There are only 5 intercity trains each way per day anyway.

Sam Russell

It is the motorist that waits at level crossings - not trains. The gates close 2 mins before the train arrives - longer for some.

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is the motorist that waits at level crossings - not trains. The gates close 2 mins before the train arrives - longer for some.

Do trains have to slow down at all going through? I'd imagine it doesn't matter too much in Dublin anyway, but if all the level crossings were removed, would trains be able to travel faster?

L1011

CatInABox wrote: »

Do trains have to slow down at all going through? I'd imagine it doesn't matter too much in Dublin anyway, but if all the level crossings were removed, would trains be able to travel faster?

Many of them are directly beside stations so there can't be any speed impact.

LeinsterDub

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is the motorist that waits at level crossings - not trains. The gates close 2 mins before the train arrives - longer for some.

So why is this run 33% longer now?

CreativeSen

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So why is this run 33% longer now?

Because its one line that passes through Connolly/Tara/GCD that also caters for commuters to Maynooth, Drogheda and intercity to Sligo, Belfast and Rosslare. There are more Commuter and Intercity trains that need to be accommodated on the one dart line

roadmaster

If you diverted the commuter trains from longford,Maynooth, Drogheda to Docklands instead of them going to Connolly/Pearse would that help ease conjestion in Connolly to allow more darts on the mainline or would it just upset a lot of people

CreativeSen

roadmaster wrote: »

If you diverted the commuter trains from longford,Maynooth, Drogheda to Docklands instead of them going to Connolly/Pearse would that help ease conjestion in Connolly to allow more darts on the mainline or would it just upset a lot of people

They would be upset and with good reason, it would not be an integrated network. The point of stopping in Connolly/Tara/Pearse/GCD is that they integrate with the Dart and Luas (at Connolly only) allowing for movement around the city. Skipping Connolly and going to the Docklands just abandons people in a location with minimal bus routes and zero light rail/rail connections. It would only suit a small percentage of a huge population that happen to live in Longford, Drogheda, Maynooth and work on Sheriff St......

Stephen15

donvito99 wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann have talked about wider electrification once the present fleet needs replacing post 2030.

Not good IMO if electrication was to take place existing diesel stock could be used elsewhere on the network to replace the older trains in operation around Cork and Limerick. Ireland and Albania are currently the only countries with any large scale electrication just goes to show you how far we lag behind.

beauf

The Connolly Train is 15 mins slower and its takes a good 5+ to get to the LUAS from the Connolly platform. Even when its not delayed waiting to enter Connolly which it is usually. Getting the Docklands train and walking back to Connolly is only 10 mins walk and will almost always be faster. Most people wouldn't realize this. You'll get to a Luas stop in about 3 mins from the docklands. The only exception is your train is going straight through to Pearse or GCD and you're getting off there. Even then you could get a Dublin Bike to Pearse and similar, in much the same time from the Docklands. I don't think the Drogheda trains can go into Docklands. I'm open to correction. But the direction of the lines would suggest they can't.

I think people think the Docklands is much further out than it actually is. But don't ruin it for the rest of us with further overcrowding.

roadmaster

beauf wrote: »

The Connolly Train is 15 mins slower and its takes a good 5+ to get to the LUAS from the Connolly platform. Even when its not delayed waiting to enter Connolly which it is usually. Getting the Docklands train and walking back to Connolly is only 10 mins walk and will almost always be faster. Most people wouldn't realize this. You'll get to a Luas stop in about 3 mins from the docklands. The only exception is your train is going straight through to Pearse or GCD and you're getting off there. Even then you could get a Dublin Bike to Pearse and similar, in much the same time from the Docklands. I don't think the Drogheda trains can go into Docklands. I'm open to correction. But the direction of the lines would suggest they can't.

I think people think the Docklands is much further out than it actually is. But don't ruin it for the rest of us with further overcrowding.

I think docklands is brilliant when I have to go in to the city for meeting I dump the car in dunboyne and I am in 30mins and just have to walk across the Liffey or I get the luas in to the city. In time dunboyne docklands I think would be a good dart route especially If they keep the park and ride free

MayoSalmon

CreativeSen wrote:

Skipping Connolly and going to the Docklands just abandons people in a location with minimal bus routes and zero light rail/rail connections

Luas is right outside the station in fairness