Railway electrification

loyatemu

Jamie2k9 wrote:

It will at some point happen in some way but not for a long time.

"It" may turn out to be a Luas or Metro line though, DartU is dead, planning notices have started going up for some of the sites that were to be compulsorily purchased.

nokia69

end of the road

nokia69 wrote: »

i remember this coming up here before. the testing has been happening for a while, i don't know if it's complete now and the train gone back into regular service? i think this will have a place but probably not for a good while. would be good if it was made to work, and that the technology could simply be swapped into any diesel unit stock that may exist whenever (if ever) this does become widely availible and reliable.

The Chieftain

The discussion seems to have wandered very far indeed from the original question!

A point I would like to make is that the choice of electrification scheme for the present DART system - 1.5 kV DC - is unsuited for longer distances. This then leads directly to the following unappealing choices:
- Electrify the rest of the system at 1.5 kV, DC. Technically, this would be an awful approach, more expensive and less efficient than, say 25 kV AC. e.g. power loss in 1.5 kV system is 278 times higher than for 25 kV.
- Redo the Dublin electrification from scratch, and convert to 25 kV AC.

The more the present DART system is expanded, the worse this choice gets!

savagethegoat

there's no reason why main line electrification couldn't use a different voltage than suburban. I think dual voltage is possible also.

The Chieftain

savagethegoat wrote: »

there's no reason why main line electrification couldn't use a different voltage than suburban. I think dual voltage is possible also.

While this is possible, it is not very attractive either. First, it is more than a voltage difference, it is also the difference between AC and DC. It would mean that every EMU or electric loco that went beyond the present DART would have to have expensive provision for that. It also introduces complexity and reliability issues. Also, there is the minor issue that I suspect the present 1.5 kV DC electrification is probably simply incapable of providing sufficient power for non-suburban units of higher speed and weight. The limitations are almost certainly built into the whole electrical distribution network - size of the overhead contact wire, power rating and spacing of substations, etc.

savagethegoat

you have entirely ignored that the main lines could be 25Kv AC only, particularly Heuston to Cork which would be first on the list I imagine.

As for dual voltage, can I refer you to "Thameslink", which operates quite sucessfully

The Chieftain

savagethegoat wrote: »

you have entirely ignored that the main lines could be 25Kv AC only, particularly Heuston to Cork which would be first on the list I imagine.

As for dual voltage, can I refer you to "Thameslink", which operates quite sucessfully

They proposed to extend the present DART electrification to the suburban Heuston line, as part of DART underground project.

The point is you want to avoid a Thameslink situation, not repeat it. Right now, it is costing over 5 billion to extend this to mainline services.... which tends to support my point.

cgcsb

With DART Underground in place DART services would run on 2 tracks from Hazelhatch to Inchicore and split off there into a tunnel, allowing intercity routes the remaining 3 tracks into Heuston. So we could have a higher voltage between Heuston and Cork, Galway, Limerick and the DART voltage would be completely separate.

Where you run into trouble is the rest of the DART network. I think we'll just have to concede that it'll always be diesel on the Sligo and Wexford trains.

Belfast means a very difficult quad tracking project which we'll most likely have to do anyway in the future. I would advocated relocating the Belfast line inland, west of the M1 south of Drogheda with a new station at Dublin Airport and then a tunnel between Ballymun and Liffey junction with Belfast services continuing via the PPT to Heuston. Upgrade platform 10 and Start running Cork-Belfast services via Lmrk jnct-Heuston and Dublin Airport. The existing coastal rail line could be exclusively for Drogheda-Hazelhatch DARTS with a 5 minute frequency if need be and no conflict with enterprise trains.

goingnowhere

Back in the 1970's an assessment was made

3rd rail was ruled out, dangerous, issues with flooding and electrically inefficient
1500Vdc Is what we got a balance
3000Vdc greater clearances required plus some questions over the on train equipment and 3000Vdc, fewer substations
25kac For a dedicated suburban service the cost of carrying around a transformer wasn't deemed a good idea, slows down acceleration, increased track, brake wear etc. Electrical clearances also an issue

All trains are fundamentally DC anyway, AC in converted to 1500-2000V DC and then passed through a VVVF inverter to drive a 3phase AC motor. Dual voltage trains are pretty easy, isn't even more expensive if you are already 25KVac all you need is a second pantograph and a circuit breaker everything under the floor is the same

DART underground design was for 1500Vdc but with clearances for 25KVac

Current DART spec is for a dense 8 car service so is modeled at 2-2.5MW per train, thats roughly the power output of a 201 class locomotive

Captain Chaos

Consider aswel that the newer 8500 class DARTs have AC traction motors while the older 8100s have DC. Technology moved on in electric motors greatly since the 80s.

The Eurostar locos are designed to work on 3 different voltage systems through third rail and pantograph. Complicated locos but it can be done, it's easier today to do compared to when they were built.

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

With DART Underground in place DART services would run on 2 tracks from Hazelhatch to Inchicore and split off there into a tunnel, allowing intercity routes the remaining 3 tracks into Heuston. So we could have a higher voltage between Heuston and Cork, Galway, Limerick and the DART voltage would be completely separate.

Where you run into trouble is the rest of the DART network. I think we'll just have to concede that it'll always be diesel on the Sligo and Wexford trains.

Belfast means a very difficult quad tracking project which we'll most likely have to do anyway in the future. I would advocated relocating the Belfast line inland, west of the M1 south of Drogheda with a new station at Dublin Airport and then a tunnel between Ballymun and Liffey junction with Belfast services continuing via the PPT to Heuston. Upgrade platform 10 and Start running Cork-Belfast services via Lmrk jnct-Heuston and Dublin Airport. The existing coastal rail line could be exclusively for Drogheda-Hazelhatch DARTS with a 5 minute frequency if need be and no conflict with enterprise trains.

now that, is called vision. i think it's fair to say that waterford/wexford/sligo/galway/westport trains would all remain diesel, all though i wouldn't have a problem with those lines electrified, if on the very very slight off chance it was to happen.

cgcsb

end of the road wrote: »

now that, is called vision. i think it's fair to say that waterford/wexford/sligo/galway/westport trains would all remain diesel, all though i wouldn't have a problem with those lines electrified, if on the very very slight off chance it was to happen.

I could imagine Galway-Heuston going electric. Perhaps Waterford in the future but that's about it.

savagethegoat

cgcsb wrote: »

I could imagine Galway-Heuston going electric. Perhaps Waterford in the future but that's about it.

I can't imagine any line outside Dublin being electrified. We can't even fettle the tracks to allow an improvement in times over the 1960s

The Chieftain

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The Eurostar locos are designed to work on 3 different voltage systems through third rail and pantograph. Complicated locos but it can be done, it's easier today to do compared to when they were built.

Just to be clear, I never said it could not be done. I also agree that it is now easier to do with "modern" electronics. However, I still assert that it is an unattractive situation, and it is fundamental physics that the power loss using 1.5 kV is 278 times that at 25 kV.

Captain Chaos

The Chieftain wrote: »

Just to be clear, I never said it could not be done. I also agree that it is now easier to do with "modern" electronics. However, I still assert that it is an unattractive situation, and it is fundamental physics that the power loss using 1.5 kV is 278 times that at 25 kV.

I wasn't arguing your point, that's why I didn't quote your post in mine.

The current DART and Luas electrical systems are very unique and are not suited to large scale area operations at all.

The Chieftain

Can I ask where other European countries got the money/will to electrify virtually their ENTIRE systems? Not all are richer or more densely populated than us. Case in point, I remember taking the train from Vilamoura to Lisbon in Portugal around 2002/3. It looked like new 25 kV electrification, with loco hauled coaches, on beautifully maintained track. AFAIR there are only a few trains a day! And Portugal is a much poorer country than Ireland...

Stephen15

The Chieftain wrote: »

Can I ask where other European countries got the money/will to electrify virtually their ENTIRE systems? Not all are richer or more densely populated than us. Case in point, I remember taking the train from Vilamoura to Lisbon in Portugal around 2002/3. It looked like new 25 kV electrification, with loco hauled coaches, on beautifully maintained track. AFAIR there are only a few trains a day! And Portugal is a much poorer country than Ireland...

Alot of countries with less of a coal reserve such as Spain, Portugal and Italy electrified they're lines before the second world war as many of the dictators such as mussolini and Franco feared that there be no coal to power trains during times of war.

cgcsb

The Chieftain wrote: »

Can I ask where other European countries got the money/will to electrify virtually their ENTIRE systems? Not all are richer or more densely populated than us. Case in point, I remember taking the train from Vilamoura to Lisbon in Portugal around 2002/3. It looked like new 25 kV electrification, with loco hauled coaches, on beautifully maintained track. AFAIR there are only a few trains a day! And Portugal is a much poorer country than Ireland...

They have a much more basic welfare state. That's why they have good infrastructure and clean places. Take Dublin's James Joyce bridge, a third of the lights are broken, grass growing out of the drains and covered in liter. Even small Spanish Cities are clean and well maintained compared to our capital.

tabbey

Electrification to Belfast would make a lot of sense, especially if railfreight was restored to this major corridor. Frequent, and relatively fast trains could be operated more efficiently.

Two issues need to be addressed;

Track capacity in the Dublin area is already inadequate. It is a great pity that some four tracking was not developed before DART electrification in the early 1980s. Before any further electrification, can be considered, significant quadrupling must be undertaken. Most importantly the route needs to be protected from lineside development, to allow for future rail expansion.

Voltage : As Chieftain says, there is a greater leakage of current from low tension cables, if 1500v dc was extended to Belfast, there would need to be transformer substations every few miles, and heavy copper wires would be needed throughout the route. The metal thieves would have a field day in the borderland bandit country.

The alternative 25kv ac would need rebuilding of many overbridges in the Dublin area, many at difficult locations from a road point of view. This would be necessary to provide adequate clearance, to avoid current shorting to earth.
The solution is probably dual voltage trains, but these come at a price, greater capital cost, heavier axle load, and the often forgotten, reduced reliability.

As for other mainline routes, forget it, unless there is a massive increase in population, traffic levels could not sustain the capital investment.

Also be thankful we still can enjoy a railway network largely unspoilt by overhead wiring and structures.

savagethegoat

I would have made your penultimate comment about the Dublin to Belfast line to be frank. The Cork line would be a much better prospect, especially should Limerick be included. Even so, I doubt a case could be made for the massive investment.

ED E

The Chieftain wrote: »

Can I ask where other European countries got the money/will to electrify virtually their ENTIRE systems? Not all are richer or more densely populated than us. Case in point, I remember taking the train from Vilamoura to Lisbon in Portugal around 2002/3. It looked like new 25 kV electrification, with loco hauled coaches, on beautifully maintained track. AFAIR there are only a few trains a day! And Portugal is a much poorer country than Ireland...

Look at Poland. They're still a poor enough country but have fully electrified their old soviet era network. EU moolah...

Since Poland's entry into the European Union in 2004, major financing has been made available by European financing institutions to improve both the Polish rail network and the rolling stock fleet. Up to June 2014, the European Investment Bank had provided loans totaling €1.9 billion for rail modernization projects in Poland.[1][2] An additional €578 million had been provided through December 2013 to modernize 70 percent of PKP Intercity rolling stock.[3] The €665 million purchase of twenty Alstom Pendolino high speed trains delivered in 2014 was financed in part by €342 million from the European Investment Bank.[4]

tabbey

ED E wrote: »

Look at Poland. They're still a poor enough country but have fully electrified their old soviet era network. EU moolah...

Poland had large reserves of coal, which was used to generate electricity. By using elecric traction, Poland avoided importing much oil.

Most of Poland's rail electrification was in the 1960s, directly replacing steam.

tabbey

savagethegoat wrote: »

I would have made your penultimate comment about the Dublin to Belfast line to be frank. The Cork line would be a much better prospect, especially should Limerick be included. Even so, I doubt a case could be made for the massive investment.

The major difference between the GSWR and GNR mainlines is that the GNR route has major towns throughout it's length, and commuter traffic at each end.
Combined with electrification to Bangor and Larne, substantial efficiencies would result.
The Cork line is almost devoid of major towns, only Sallins / Naas being of any consequence. I do support electrification to Hazelhatch, perhaps Newbridge or Kildare, but as a commuter facility.

The problem with the GSWR route is that to justify electrifying the mainline, it would be necessary to have electric trains running to & from Waterford, Galway, Mayo, Limerick and Kerry. This is not viable.

The alternative might be electro - diesel trains , as are planned for Great Western services in England, but really diesel trains can cope well with the gentle curves across the midlands, in contrast to the tortuous route crossing the border.

savagethegoat

no major towns? I think it does. Towns that are railheads for major swathes of countryside too.

Commuter traffic at both ends? Well Cork and Dublin both have suburban networks that would benefit from development.

I'm afraid I disagree with you. Possibly because I live in Cork, I suspect you live somewhere north of Dublin.

cgcsb

tabbey wrote: »

Most importantly the route needs to be protected from lineside development, to allow for future rail expansion.

I'm afraid the horse as bolted on that one. The Belfast line is already densely developed at the Dublin end. If we're 4 tracking, the extra 2 tracks will have to be built inland, west of the M1, through Dublin airport and in a tunnel to Liffey junction and on to Heuston via the Phoenix Park Tunnel. The coastal line can then be handed over to a 5 minute frequent DART.

tabbey wrote: »

As for other mainline routes, forget it, unless there is a massive increase in population, traffic levels could not sustain the capital investment.

The Dublin Belfast line has lower patronage than Dublin-Galway. Dublin Cork is by miles the busiest long distance rail and road route.

tabbey wrote: »

Also be thankful we still can enjoy a railway network largely unspoilt by overhead wiring and structures.

Oh come off it.

tabbey

[QUOTE=savagethegoat;99017892

I'm afraid I disagree with you. Possibly because I live in Cork, I suspect you live somewhere north of Dublin.[/QUOTE]

Apologies to all residents & natives of the real capital and the rebel county.
You are quite right about intermediate stations being railheads for their catchment areas, but I do not think the population justifies electrification for the foreseeable future.
The belfast line, on the other hand, offers the potential for traffic growth, if an adequate service was provided, not just for city to city, but for Skerries to Newry and Dundalk to Lisburn. The present operation cannot compete with the motorway, for geographical and operational reasons.

As for my abode, you are close, but not quite right. I can perfectly understand your suspicion.

cgcsb

tabbey wrote: »

The major difference between the GSWR and GNR mainlines is that the GNR route has major towns throughout it's length, and commuter traffic at each end.
Combined with electrification to Bangor and Larne, substantial efficiencies would result.
The Cork line is almost devoid of major towns, only Sallins / Naas being of any consequence. I do support electrification to Hazelhatch, perhaps Newbridge or Kildare, but as a commuter facility.

???
You do realise that the Cork Line also carries everyone travelling from Dublin to Limerick and Kerry also. And that you have commuter services from Mallow into Cork.

Either way simply looking at populations is not material. Cork and Dublin have greater passenger numbers between them because their economies are interlinked, being part of the same country and all. Northern Ireland's workforce are mostly civil servants and the vast majority of people employed are directly or indirectly employed by the British state meaning that they have no need to travel for business, so you are talking mostly leisure passengers cross border.

tabbey wrote: »

The problem with the GSWR route is that to justify electrifying the mainline, it would be necessary to have electric trains running to & from Waterford, Galway, Mayo, Limerick and Kerry. This is not viable.

No it wouldn't you can have diesel trains running on electrified lines as we currently have with the DART.

Stephen15

cgcsb wrote: »

No it wouldn't you can have diesel trains running on electrified lines as we currently have with the DART.

Or even better still dual diesel electric trains

Figel2

Before the network can be electrified fully several things need to happen first Dart Underground needs to be built and then electrification can be expanded .It is the centre of the Irish rail net .

For total electrification a tunnel or bridge needs to be built to Whales (EU desire )