Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

TG1

I've spent ages trying to figure out where to post this so hope I'm in the right place as I'm really curious to see has anybody else had a similar experience to me, and why people think it still happens.

I've just entered my 30's and am single. I have no intention of having children. I love them and think they're great craic as long as I can give them back eventually! I have a career and a time and money consuming hobby, and I like my life as it is.

I also recently had an accident that led to surgery that means if I did ever have a baby it would need to be born by c section. This news didnt bother me as I don't think it will be an issue, but it bothered others that it didn't bother me!

I'm not talking about my parents or relatives, but my friends, who are the same age. Most of them were really upset on my behalf, and kept saying things like I know you're only trying to be strong, and you never know in a few years this might be a problem. One even went as far as to tell me that of course I'm upset, as every woman wants the chance to give birth as nature intended!!

I was a bit horrified by how much this small insignificant side effect upset my friends who I previously thought were pretty modern, rational people! Is it just my circle of friends who have not moved past the idea that everyone must have children or has anyone else encountered this attitude?

eviltwin

Is it still a taboo? I'm the only one of my friends with children, we are all in our 30's. No one outside of their mothers have ever made a thing of it. I suppose it's one thing to be upset for someone who can't have children, I know quite a few people like this and its really hard for them. It's different if someone has made a choice to be child free, why feel sorry or sad for someone living their life the way they want. I don't personally see the attraction long term but they probably think my life looks like hell too I think those who make a big deal of it probably feel you're looking down on them in some ways and that does happen but it goes both ways, I've had snide comments made to me about being a 'breeder' (horrible word) or how my life is over but you just gotta ignore it. I find the ones who comment are just pass remarkable by nature and will always find something to focus on.

RacoonQueen

I'm late 20's now and have always said I don't want children, all for similar reasons as you TG1. I love my life as it is and while I love my nephews, I can walk away when a tantrum starts etc I know my sister and brother are delighted to be parents and that's great for them.
I can't see the attraction at all to being a parent but it's great that there are people who adore parent hood and it's great that them and their partners are so happy. Everyone being different is what nature intended!
I'm open to the idea that I may, very small may change my mind if I end up with the man of everyones dreams and decide I'd like to have kids with him but that is very unlikely. The thoughts of being a parent and the changes to my lifestyle makes me shudder.

eviltwin, they're horrible comments for people to make. Nothing I hate more than the snide, nasty, ill informed comments from people. You can have 10 kids if you want, what business is it of theirs?!

One eyed Jack

TG1 wrote: »

I'm not talking about my parents or relatives, but my friends, who are the same age. Most of them were really upset on my behalf, and kept saying things like I know you're only trying to be strong, and you never know in a few years this might be a problem. One even went as far as to tell me that of course I'm upset, as every woman wants the chance to give birth as nature intended!!

I was a bit horrified by how much this small insignificant side effect upset my friends who I previously thought were pretty modern, rational people! Is it just my circle of friends who have not moved past the idea that everyone must have children or has anyone else encountered this attitude?

I think there's more going on with some of your friends there OP tbh, especially when one of them would say something like that to you. I can't possibly see how a comment like that would be thinking about anyone but themselves.

Having said that though, no, I don't think there's any particular taboo about choosing not to have children. It's simply a case of most people have expectations and milestones set for themselves, and having a career, house and children are the basic milestones (remember when choosing not to get married was unheard of?).

The decision not to have children is for other people an odd one to get their heads around because they feel it's a milestone for them, so they expect it to be a milestone for everyone else, and if you're "foregoing" milestones, that tends to put other peoples noses out of joint!

I've encountered that attitude plenty OP, for numerous reasons.

TG1

Yeh I was really surprised by the reactions because they are all childless themselves but suddenly they were all about "in the future". We had never really talked about kids before but they knew they weren't part of my long term plan and it only came up when they were asking about the plates and screws I had put in, the minute I said they had to stay they were horrified.

It was really surprising as some of the conversations took really surprising turns, with one in particular almost saying that my life would never be full if I didn't have kids! I really thought that attitude was only held by my 94 year old granny and her peers!

I also would have thought even if I wanted kids the c section aspect would be a tiny thing but apparently not for them!

Eviltwin that is terrible! The fact that people think it's ok to say things like that makes me wonder sometimes!!

intheclouds

I am child free by choice and have definitely encountered some strange attitudes and reactions over the years. From people casually asking at weddings if I was looking forward to starting a family with my new husband to one idiot who told me lots of times that all women want babies and that I'd change my mind when I was older and my clock was ticking.

I'm a bit meh about it. If someone started a conversation with me about football I'd change the subject or wander off. Same if some starts talking to me about babies. I'm just not interested.

I'm now close to "past it" age wise and comments have definitely waned with the years, I suppose some people might think I just couldn't so don't bring it up.

Out of a group of 8 female friends in their 40s, 3 of us remain child free. I don't think it's that unusual anymore now that women have "some" control over their reproductive systems, unlike my mother who never wanted children but had no other choice, contraception was illegal and she was married ergo, she had babies.

I do wonder what drives people to have children, sure, they love them etc, but a lot of parents I know seem worn out, harassed etc.. I only know a small few who genuinely seem to love it. But even before the actuality of having them, I don't know or understand what drives people to make the decision to have them. I guess that's why I don't have them!

I think some people have kids because it's the done thing, the expected path of life, and perhaps they don't put much thought into it at all. But others are very driven. Each to their own, I'm happy with my own choices and respect the choices of others.

RacoonQueen

intheclouds wrote: »

I do wonder what drives people to have children, sure, they love them etc, but a lot of parents I know seem worn out, harassed etc.. I only know a small few who genuinely seem to love it. But even before the actuality of having them, I don't know or understand what drives people to make the decision to have them. I guess that's why I don't have them!

haha this is me...I'm all like. But WHY would you WANT kids. Of course, I'm not ignorant so I don't judge people for their choice to have kids. I can see the joy and love of my siblings with their kids or my colleagues of theirs and I when my nephew tells me that he loves me, I love it. But still, god no.
My brother in law would have 6 kids if they could afford it, my brother and his wife would have another if they could afford it.
It's great that we now have the ability to choose whether to have them or not and how many we have to an extent.

R.D. aka MR.D

My husband-to-be and I are childfree by choice.

I've got two different experiences with mothers:

1. My SIL, 3 kids. She loves them and is an amazing mother. She even wants 2 more!! But she has no problem accepting that I don't want them. She has no problem telling me how relieved she is when they go off to granny and she gets time to herself. She admits that sometimes it's boring and they melt your brain and she loves getting away to work for a few days a week. She talks about how gross they are and what having them has done to her body.

2. My oldest friend. 2 kids. Cannot accept that I don't want kids. Says that I'd be much happier (i'm super happy already!). She's obsessed with them. She can't even afford santa presents for them and her and her husband have to live with a family member. But according to her I'd be much happier if I had kids like her.

It makes no sense to me. But then maybe it makes no sense to her that I don't want them. But how do you account for 2 totally different attitudes from people essentially the same age.

What really annoys me is these type of things:
You don't know true love until you have a child.
You're not an 'real' grown up until you've had a child.
You're not a real woman if you don't have a child.

Or the idea that childfree people hate kids. I teach kids from age 4-19 so I don't hate them! I just don't want any. They are bloody hard work for one thing! :pac:

My OH has had to be really firm with his family because they kept saying he doesn't know about life until he has kids. I mean, how rude is that!?! :mad:

My family know that I've never wanted kids for as long as I've been aware that it's a choice and it doesn't just happen when you get married!!

Hopefully, the OH will have a vasectomy before the years end!

People will always be ignorant of people who choose something slightly different from the norm. Also, maybe a lot of people don't think it's a choice, maybe they think it's 'what you do'.

DINKs forever!!!!

Addle

I'm child free by choice.
I think everyone thinks their own choices are the best, so when you make a decision that differs from others, they feel like you undermine their choice.
But our choices are what's best for us, not everyone.

In my mid thirties now. Most people I know have children.
And I'm surprised more people don't have children.
I know some people who really just aren't suited to it.

IvyTheTerrible

I think there is definitely a taboo in saying you don't want children. Not among everybody, but there are always people who say "Oh but you'll change your mind", they can't accept that an adult can make a decision like that.
Also, look at how hard it is for a woman to have her tubes tied!

I have a child and I love being a mum, but I'm not so blinkered as to think that everyone wants that. Each to their own, I say.

Sunny Dayz

I think it still is. I got married 4 years ago and after the first anniversary I started getting the olde "anything stirring yet", "any news?". Getting a second glance when I'm drinking alcohol, bumping into someone and they glance at my tummy area to see if I'm showing any bump.
I've had one person make a few joking comments about my husband because I have a child already from a previous relationship. I have one child, I love him to bits but I don't want another. I'm not a maternal or broody person, early 30's and haven't feel the clock tick yet anyway and also because I have one half reared already I don't want to start at the beginning all over again.

lazygal

I have two children and was the first of my friends to have one, never mind two. I can completely see why people don't want children. I love mine (obviously) but I'm not a particularly 'mumsy' type and I never thought other people's kids were amazing.

I had both of mine by c section, first time 100% for medical reasons, I couldn't even go into labour, second time was about 50% my choice-50% medical reasons. Someone asked me if I had my baby myself or had a section! Really strange attitude.

Children can be a royal pain and they can really restrict your choices in life, like travel and work. You should only have them if you want to have them and you're happy to give up some of your freedom. Having children has moved me from a moderate pro-choice position to what some might call a militant pro-choice stance. I hated pregnancy and I have put my body through a lot to have my children, years of breastfeeding too. Women should only have to go through all that if they choose to do so, and no one else gets to have a say.

TG1

Well I'm relieved to hear it's not just my group of friends stuck in the dark ages! It's such a strange one though, that people feel they have the right to tell you what you should and shouldn't do regarding children.

As I said, I like them but I'm just not that into tying myself down, and although it's a bit selfish, I like my free time and the fact that I can spend money on myself. I couldn't have my horse if I had kids, I couldn't live where I do and I couldn't drive the car I have. I've made a choice based on the fact that I like all those things and don't have an overwhelming desire to have children.

I think its a rational decision but the minute I say it out loud I nearly get patted on the head and told I'm being silly!! Other people make a decision to give up some things in order to have kids and I think that's great, they're deciding based on what makes them happy. So am I! What makes it worse is my family wouldn't dream of putting pressure on me, it all comes from my peer group!

lazygal

People will always have comments.

When you're single, they ask have you met anyone.
When you meet someone, they ask when you're getting engaged/moving in together/married/buying a home.
When you get married, they ask when you're going to start a family (as though you're not a family already!).
When you have one child, they ask when you'll 'give' him/her a sibling.
If you have another one of the same gender, they'll ask if you'll 'go' for the boy/girl.

I was asked about three weeks after having my second if we'll 'go again' . And this person has asked several times, as have other people. Some people just have to know your business, even when you don't want them to.

R.D. aka MR.D

lazygal wrote: »

People will always have comments.

Totally agree, some people are just nosey. The best thing to do with people like that is ask one simple question in response:

Why do you want to know?

Usually shuts them up pretty quickly.

I think the worst for childfree people is when close friends and family do it. Especially when they are dismissive basically saying 'you don't know your own mind'.

intheclouds

I think it probably causes quite a bit of friendship drift away from friends with children too.

For example, I (obviously) wouldn't have any interest in going to a children's party, or a mums group, or any other child based activity, so friends with kids do that stuff together. Or some mums just talk obsessively about their kids all the time so their company becomes tedious. I have experienced (some) mums being almost patronising or condescending towards my interests/ hobbies and implying that I'm just trying to fill the time of my empty life, of course they have no time because they are so busy with the kids!

My life isn't subject to being able to get a babysitter so I can do far more adult activities that friends with children often miss. Or only one of a couple ever comes out so you don't see someone's husband or wife for years.

Fundamentally it comes down to different interests I suppose, people's lives moving in different ways.

intheclouds

intheclouds wrote: »

I have experienced (some) mums being almost patronising or condescending towards my interests/ hobbies and implying that I'm just trying to fill the time of my empty life

I've had that as well. Being in your 30s and going out is apparently quite sad and pathetic, and we'll wake up alone and too late to have children one day :rolleyes:

intheclouds

bluewolf wrote: »

I've had that as well. Being in your 30s and going out is apparently quite sad and pathetic, and we'll wake up alone and too late to have children one day :rolleyes:

Going out? For me it was studying. I mean, why do I need a second degree, unrelated to my career path, sure I'm only wasting money and time on it! And for what? It won't fulfill me like a baby apparently.

seamus

TG1 wrote: »

I also recently had an accident that led to surgery that means if I did ever have a baby it would need to be born by c section. This news didnt bother me as I don't think it will be an issue, but it bothered others that it didn't bother me!

I'm not talking about my parents or relatives, but my friends, who are the same age. Most of them were really upset on my behalf, and kept saying things like I know you're only trying to be strong, and you never know in a few years this might be a problem. One even went as far as to tell me that of course I'm upset, as every woman wants the chance to give birth as nature intended!!

Projection is a weird one, and a lot of people don't know how to handle it. As in, they imagine how they would feel in your situation and then project that onto you, making the assumption that you must feel the same way - even if you aren't expressing it.

What really annoys me is these type of things:
You don't know true love until you have a child.

I'm going to be "that guy" and agree on this one...to a point. There is a very specific kind of shift in focus that occurs. A depth of love for another living creature that you will very likely never have experienced before.
I doubt it's limited strictly to biological parents and probably does occur for all sorts of parental bonds, even ones formed years after birth, or ones where an adult becomes the carer for another. And the act of being a parent does not necessarily mean this bond will form.
But it's the not the same kind of bond that you have for your parent(s) or siblings, or partners, or friends or pets.
The film "We Need to Talk About Kevin" somewhat explores this depth of unconditional love,

Even after being horrible to her most of his life, butchering her husband and daughter as well as people at his school, the protagonist (mother) of the story realises that she cannot help loving her son, because she's his mother

Primarily, as others have said, I think the main issue here is one of noseyness rather than pressure. People assume that everyone's life will follow a general narrative - meet someone, settle down, get married, have more than one child, raise them, die.

So people naturally ask how you're getting on with this plan. Some people have great difficulty dealing with anyone who might not want to follow this plan - try telling someone that you never plan on buying a house and will rent for the rest of your life. Or that you've no intention of ever getting married.

I also think that many people become defensive when you do things differently. If they find out you don't want to get married, or you don't want a steady 9-5 job or you don't eat meat, they instantly seek to defend their decision to do these things, assuming that you're judging them.

lazygal

seamus wrote: »

I also think that many people become defensive when you do things differently. If they find out you don't want to get married, or you don't want a steady 9-5 job or you don't eat meat, they instantly seek to defend their decision to do these things, assuming that you're judging them.

Bingo. We get this a lot about some of our choices, like not having a church wedding, not having the children baptised (a lot of heat about this from other parents, most of whom tell us they only did it to appease grannies and to get into schools) and extended breastfeeding (I get a lot of questions about why I'm still feeding my two and a half year old) as well as other parenting things.

I also had a friend (not a friend any more) who really went out of her way to question why I wanted to get married and have children, and when I was pregnant made a whole load of passive agressive remarks about how restricted I was and how her life was better without children.

R.D. aka MR.D

seamus wrote: »

I'm going to be "that guy" and agree on this one...to a point. There is a very specific kind of shift in focus that occurs. A depth of love for another living creature that you will very likely never have experienced before.
I doubt it's limited strictly to biological parents and probably does occur for all sorts of parental bonds, even ones formed years after birth, or ones where an adult becomes the carer for another. And the act of being a parent does not necessarily mean this bond will form.
But it's the not the same kind of bond that you have for your parent(s) or siblings, or partners, or friends or pets.
The film "We Need to Talk About Kevin" somewhat explores this depth of unconditional love,

Even after being horrible to her most of his life, butchering her husband and daughter as well as people at his school, the protagonist (mother) of the story realises that she cannot help loving her son, because she's his mother

So the love between a parent and a child is 'true love' and superior to all others?

It's a different kind of love to be sure as is the love for parents, nephews, siblings, and so on. But what makes it superior than these other kinds of love?

Also, plenty of parents don't love their children and plenty of children don't love their parents. That 'shift in focus' doesn't happen for everyone.

Again, it's just people who have very specific ideas about things e.g having children makes you somehow wiser in the world therefore everyone should strive for it. And it's an un-win-able argument because 'you'll never know because you don't have children.' :rolleyes:

intheclouds

seamus wrote: »

I'm going to be "that guy" and agree on this one...to a point. There is a very specific kind of shift in focus that occurs. A depth of love for another living creature that you will very likely never have experienced before.
......
But it's the not the same kind of bond that you have for your parent(s) or siblings, or partners, or friends or pets.

Ugh. Hate this attitude. So patronising. You can't possibly know or understand the depth of another persons love for anyone! It's completely subjective.

Perhaps your love for your child transcends all other love you have experienced but it's not like that for everyone.

My mother chose her love for my father over love for her kids, her bond with him was stronger than any bond with us.

intheclouds

lazygal wrote: »

I also had a friend (not a friend any more) who really went out of her way to question why I wanted to get married and have children, and when I was pregnant made a whole load of passive agressive remarks about how restricted I was and how her life was better without children.

Lol, I had the opposite, why did I want to get married if I didn't want to have children? Like, what's the point?

seamus

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

So the love between a parent and a child is 'true love' and superior to all others?

It's a different kind of love to be sure as is the love for parents, nephews, siblings, and so on. But what makes it superior than these other kinds of love?

Also, plenty of parents don't love their children and plenty of children don't love their parents. That 'shift in focus' doesn't happen for everyone.

I do believe I addressed all of these points in my post by deliberately avoiding being absolutist about it.
I also don't think I ever used the word "superior". In many ways it can be a curse.

To a certain extent you do have to accept that someone having had an experience, by implication is likely to be a little wiser in relation to that experience than you are. People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children. So if they say, "You don't know because you don't have kids", they're right. And your response should be, "I'm happy not knowing, thanks".

Of course that doesn't make them any more worldly-wise or knowledgeable in general, nor does it give them authority to tell another person what's best. Which, again, is something a lot of people struggle with.

intheclouds

seamus wrote: »

People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children.

So what? They still only know how it is for them, not for everyone else.

It makes no sense to extrapolate from one subjective experience.

R.D. aka MR.D

seamus wrote: »

I also don't think I ever used the word "superior". In many ways it can be a curse.

The post that you quoted and said you agreed with said 'you don't know true love...' That implies that other kinds of love are inferior.

RacoonQueen

seamus wrote: »

People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children.

Yeah but if I have a child just to find out, there no blooming going back. I'd have to keep the brat. :pac:

RacoonQueen

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Yeah but if I have a child just to find out, there no blooming going back. I'd have to keep the brat. :pac:

Terrible returns policy

Addle

bluewolf wrote: »

Terrible returns policy

And no guarantee.

Dial Hard

seamus wrote:

To a certain extent you do have to accept that someone having had an experience, by implication is likely to be a little wiser in relation to that experience than you are. People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children. So if they say, "You don't know because you don't have kids", they're right. And your response should be, "I'm happy not knowing, thanks".

No, that's *their* subjective experience of it. It doesn't mean that it applies across the board.

Can you genuinely not see how incredibly patronising it is to tell child-free couples that they don't know what true love is?

Dial Hard

Dial Hard wrote: »

No, that's *their* subjective experience of it. It doesn't mean that it applies across the board.

Can you genuinely not see how incredibly patronising it is to tell child-free couples that they don't know what true love is?

Of course the child free know what true love is, it is a different sort of love even in the most selfless adult to adult relationship there is a large element of reciprocity be it intimacy, sex, companionship, where as with the love of a baby/child it all about what you give with out an expectation of any return.

Thats the way I see it.