Can't get any experience or work as a Junior Java Developer

TrustedApple

quinnd6 wrote: »

Thanks but 6705 euros fee yikes.

My friend done it for it for free ?. AS he was signing on You can apply and see if you have been signing for the right amount of time.

He told me it was a fantastic course and enjoyed it more then IT in college

Eugene Norman

Plenty of app devs are self taught. Think about it. The industry isn't around long enough for universities to catch up. In the first few years every iPhone dev was not only self taught but had to learn a new language, IDE, framework and probably had to buy a Mac.

syklops

quinnd6 wrote: »

If no one gives you the opportunity to get experience how the flip are you supposed to get experience.

More than one person has asked you do you have a portfolio but you've not responded so I'll assume thats a no. So first off, get together a portfolio. A github account is a good start.

Have you done any personal projects in the last 7 years? Did you contribute to any open source projects? Did you solve any bugs?

You said you dont mind commuting up to Dublin, where in the country are you?

quinnd6

It's about a 2 hour bus journey for me.
I don't have a portfolio.
Last thing I did was build a PHP online store type website.
Apart from that not really any project work, just going through code in tutorials trying to learn more things.

TrustedApple

Would you use meet up.com and go to the software dev meet up groups and see meet other software dev and work on projects with each other ?.

irishguy

Developer roles are some of the most challenging and pay the best in IT. Most large companies wont look at you if you dont have a 2.1, its expensive to train grads and a big risk for them. If you have been out of work that long you would be too big a risk for an employer for a dev role. Look at Manual QA, QA automation, ba role and your never too young to apply for grad program roles. Try the banks, smaller consultancy companies or startups.

Being a dev requires a certain aptitude and a love for development. You are competing with people who have this and go to tech talks, have side projects and read a LOT of IT related articles. If this doesnt sound like fun (and I know for lots of people it wont) then development isnt for you and you will find it hard to be successful in it. Look at other roles in IT to find one that suits you better and you will do very well.

Also look at moving to the UK to get the initial experience.

If all else fails become an accountant, lots of money to be made

quinnd6

Yes I would and that sounds like a good idea aswell the meetup.com idea that is.
To the irishguy moving to the UK isn't for me.
I want something in Ireland.
Don't QA roles require experience in QA anyway so wouldn't I be screwed in that aswell.

syklops

quinnd6 wrote: »

It's about a 2 hour bus journey for me.

Presumeably you are not mentioning that in your applications

I don't have a portfolio.

Make one.

Last thing I did was build a PHP online store type website.

First candidate for the portfolio.

Apart from that not really any project work, just going through code in tutorials trying to learn more things.

No better way to learn than by building things. There is surely some problem you've run into somewhere which could be solved with some code. Thats your next candidate for your portfolio. Look into doing bug bounties. Great way of getting demonstrable experience.

Don't QA roles require experience in QA anyway so wouldn't I be screwed in that area aswell

Start doing some QA of Open Source projects and hey presto you have QA experience.

JigglyMcJabs

doolox wrote: »

I was in a similar situation, I had a level 7 qual in Electronics and a level 6 diploma in IT all terribly out dated and little or no up to date experience etc so not wanted. I can get much more from working free lance in a completely unrelated area of work making my own way and working my own ( much shorter) hours in something I LOVE doing.

Too many people are jumping on the technology/programming hi tech bandwagon without realising how difficult, demanding, time consuming and low paid it really is.

Think sport, art or music. SOME people, the very lucky few , make good money at it but most people scrape by with a bare living wage if they get any pay at all.

The trick with technology jobs seems to be to research a certain area of science or general knowledge and then to turn that body of scarce and arcane knowledge into a computer application without your competitors stealing it and copying it before you can turn it into money, either by securing and selling the rights to the program by licence or outright sale. This is the hard part of making money and is not for everybody.

Great coders do not necessarily make big money. Experts on contract law and monetisation do.

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree. Yes it is difficult and demanding (I spent most of my Sunday researching a problem I couldn't solve last week in work, so I can hit the ground running tomorrow).

But I went from no IT qualifications or experience in 2010, to being paid a lot more than the average industrial wage plus great benefits, doing something I find really interesting. From first hand experience, there are lots of jobs out there for junior and senior developers.

In interviews, senior developers are usually put through their paces technically and have to prove their up to a high level, junior devs however are interviewed mainly on attitude and aptitude.
The course I did back in 2010 had 25 people on it, 1 of them was a nutter and remaind unemployed, all the rest found employment as analysts or developers within a couple of months. There were less opportunities around in 2010 than there are now.

I will say though that you really do have to stay up to date, a friend of mine had 8 years Java experience, gained in one job doing middleware for telecoms companies. He was made redundant and had a hard time finding any dev work, he went back and did a masters in software development to prove he was up to date, which was an absolute doddle for him, but he was hired by a multinational straight out of that course and is flying now.

irishguy

quinnd6 wrote: »

Yes I would and that sounds like a good idea aswell the meetup.com idea that is.
To the irishguy moving to the UK isn't for me.
I want something in Ireland.
Don't QA roles require experience in QA anyway so wouldn't I be screwed in that aswell.

As a grad you really need to take whatever your given for a couple of years to get experience, so move to where the work is.

QA/BA roles would be less technical and companies would be more willing to hire an in experienced junior. Apply for any role that says 2 years experience 2 years is recruiter speak for grad that has a bit of cop on.

Go do the SCJP exam, that will cover most interview questions. Then do some of the AWS online courses. Go build yourself a website or mobile app (AngularJS/native Android) with a RESTFUL webservice on the backend i.e. SpringBoot (Or Play+Scala if your feeling very adventurous) using DynamoDB or Aurora/RDS as the database. Stick it all on github, add it to your linkedin/cv.

If you can find a local group/charity to do this for all the better. Then apply for every job that has 2 years experience, if you do your project right, pass SCJP and I can view the code before your interview I would hire you.

Give this 6/9months if you dont get a job in that timeframe I would consider changing your focus from development.

Singer

Hey there quinnd6,

Certifications are ok to get you in the door of some places, but they're not replacement for experience, and as you've found out the hard way you're not a recent grad you won't be able to get through the door via the usual graduate programs. However, all is far from lost.

If you want to be a programmer, build things that people use. If you want to find a job, you need to network. Knowing more languages/frameworks etc. will give you more options. Here are some suggestions... feel free to ask questions

There were already some good suggestions on this thread about looking at Android development, as it's Java based and Android devs are in demand. Build an app, put some server side component up in AWS's free tier, get your friends and family to use the app and learn about building and shipping software. Maybe try to find somebody to build a free app or website for - a friend's business or whatever. Or scratch an itch for something you want to do. It doesn't need to be anything revolutionary or cutting edge, just learn as you're going along and keep improving.

Going to meetups is a good way of learning and networking, though I'd expect that they'll be quieter in December as folks wind down for Christmas (DevOps Ireland is good but it's relatively niche compared to where you are: http://www.meetup.com/Dublin-DevOps-Meetup/events/227071228/ ). Volunteering with CoderDojo is also a good active way of meeting people, using your coding skills, learning how to teach and looks good on a CV.

Take a look at Coursera courses - expanding the languages you're good at will open more doors. Ruby (look at Ruby On Rails), Python and Javascript (maybe look at some Node.js or frameworks like Ember.js) are good languages to consider. https://www.coursera.org/browse/computer-science/mobile-and-web-development?languages=en

Reading these links may give you some insight what it's like to be on the other side and what (some) employers are looking for:
https://blog.intercom.io/how-we-hire-engineers-part-1/
https://blog.intercom.io/how-we-hire-engineers-part-2-culture-contribution/

Best of luck!

syklops

Singer wrote: »

Hey there syklops,

Certifications are ok to get you in the door of some places, but they're not replacement for experience, and as you've found out the hard way you're not a recent grad you won't be able to get through the door via the usual graduate programs. However, all is far from lost.

If you want to be a programmer, build things that people use. If you want to find a job, you need to network. Knowing more languages/frameworks etc. will give you more options. Here are some suggestions... feel free to ask questions

There were already some good suggestions on this thread about looking at Android development, as it's Java based and Android devs are in demand. Build an app, put some server side component up in AWS's free tier, get your friends and family to use the app and learn about building and shipping software. Maybe try to find somebody to build a free app or website for - a friend's business or whatever. Or scratch an itch for something you want to do. It doesn't need to be anything revolutionary or cutting edge, just learn as you're going along and keep improving.

Going to meetups is a good way of learning and networking, though I'd expect that they'll be quieter in December as folks wind down for Christmas (DevOps Ireland is good but it's relatively niche compared to where you are: http://www.meetup.com/Dublin-DevOps-Meetup/events/227071228/ ). Volunteering with CoderDojo is also a good active way of meeting people, using your coding skills, learning how to teach and looks good on a CV.

Take a look at Coursera courses - expanding the languages you're good at will open more doors. Ruby (look at Ruby On Rails), Python and Javascript (maybe look at some Node.js or frameworks like Ember.js) are good languages to consider. https://www.coursera.org/browse/computer-science/mobile-and-web-development?languages=en

Reading these links may give you some insight what it's like to be on the other side and what (some) employers are looking for:
https://blog.intercom.io/how-we-hire-engineers-part-1/
https://blog.intercom.io/how-we-hire-engineers-part-2-culture-contribution/

Best of luck!

I think you are addressing the wrong poster there. My career is already established

P.S. theres a new course on Coursera on git. I highly recommend it to anyone who finds git confusing.

Singer

syklops wrote: »

I think you are addressing the wrong poster there. My career is already established

P.S. theres a new course on Coursera on git. I highly recommend it to anyone who finds git confusing.

It's great advice anyway - I've corrected the post, thanks.

Sure, nobody finds git confusing: https://xkcd.com/1597/

Stheno

@ OP the gap in your c.v. would be the biggest issue I would have, I'd wonder why someone who qualified so long ago has never gotten a job in the field tbh.

As for those saying that there are no jobs in IT, there are plenty in IT, but employers are not going to take on just anyone

syklops

Plenty of IT jobs, albeit mostly in dublin. As you say the gap on the CV will be the main thing off putting employers, plus the absence of much done in 7 years. I recently got asked to explain a 3 month gap on my CV. I was moving countries at the time which they accepted.

Eugene Norman

Start a company and the gap on your cv ends. The company doesn't have to do much (and you could have a real job) but at least do some app or website dev.

syklops

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Start a company and the gap on your cv ends. The company doesn't have to do much (and you could have a real job) but at least do some app or website dev.

Terrific idea.

Evil Phil

There's projects on http://codeforireland.com/ looking for contributors, you won't get paid but you will end up with code you can show to prospective employers.

Nody

//MOD

Please note new charter applies.

//MOD

Call Me Jimmy

syklops wrote: »

Terrific idea.

You guys are saying to start a company to make an app for someone who is unemployed, really? (Understand I'm not disagreeing with you, just shocked), could you's explain more what you mean?

Is that not a huge undertaking? How does starting a company differ from just trying to make the app and releasing it (okay maybe if you have something that turns out to be really marketable then maybe you'd have to register a company?)

I'm intrigued, is it not risky?

Mr_Muffin

La Fenetre wrote: »

Maybe set your sights on a tech support job, and get your foot in the door that way ? See what you like in that job, and pursue that.

Everyone who does IT in college for some reason wants to be a 'developer'. There's far more to IT than just development jobs, which are very over rated, and very over subscribed by job seekers, yet in reality, not better paid, r no more fulfilling than any other IT job. If you like development, you can still do your own on the side as a hobby (and probably enjoy it far more than if it were your day job) while working in one of the many other areas of IT.

If a graduates goal was to become a developer but they were to get offered a Job in say the security/networking side of things should they still consider taking it?

La Fenetre

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

If a graduates goal was to become a developer but they were to get offered a Job in say the security/networking side of things should they still consider taking it?

If they like networking/security why not, and it's just as challenging and well paid as development. Doing what every second other IT graduate wants to do is not always a great recipe for career success. If you really like development you can always do it as a hobby on the side, and that way get to do whatever projects you want to do, as apposed to what you're employer wants. Something a full time developer rarely ever gets to do, and the last thing a full time developer wants to do is more coding in the evenings / weekends.

beauf

quinnd6 wrote: »

...Does anyone have any suggestions on what the heck I could do to get some experience?..

Do your own Projects
Volunteer work.
Do freelance work.

Won't make money, but you'll get experience, good and bad.

That you haven't done that, suggests you might not actually be as interested in it, as you think you are. Maybe you need to reboot your interest. You are what you do. Not what you used to do.

beauf

La Fenetre wrote: »

...the last thing a full time developer wants to do is more coding in the evenings / weekends.

I don't agree fully with that. A lot of the developers/ or other types IT people I have know, a lot of them are always are messing around with some IT projects in their own time. While you do get people who see their job as a job only. Its less common in IT. Perhaps that's changing these days, with people getting into IT with no real passion for it. Its simply a job.

ED E

beauf wrote: »

I don't agree fully with that. A lot of the developers/ or other types IT people I have know, a lot of them are always are messing around with some IT projects in their own time. While you do get people who see their job as a job only. Its less common in IT. Perhaps that's changing these days, with people getting into IT with no real passion for it. Its simply a job.

I see that in the educational space. You have those coming for the good career prospects who do the work but not much more and then you have the "nerds"(I mean that in a no way derogatory fashion) who'll be on slashdot and /r/hackernews all day long.

The latter arent always the better developers either.

La Fenetre

beauf wrote: »

I don't agree fully with that. A lot of the developers/ or other types IT people I have know, a lot of them are always are messing around with some IT projects in their own time. While you do get people who see their job as a job only. Its less common in IT. Perhaps that's changing these days, with people getting into IT with no real passion for it. Its simply a job.

As I do, but I try to do something different in IT at the weekends / evenings instead of what I do all day, also after a few years there is family and home to look about and a life to be lived outside IT as well. Not everyone has to work an 80 week to be good at what they do.

beauf

ED E wrote: »

I see that in the educational space. You have those coming for the good career prospects who do the work but not much more and then you have the "nerds"(I mean that in a no way derogatory fashion) who'll be on slashdot and /r/hackernews all day long.

The latter arent always the better developers either.

Always no. Usually maybe. But that's not the issue here. Will it help you getting a job is the question.

In a competitive job market, you're expected to be showing more interest. Especially if you've been out of that sphere for years.

beauf

La Fenetre wrote: »

As I do, but I try to do something different in IT at the weekends / evenings instead of what I do all day, also after a few years there is family and home to look about and a life to be lived outside IT as well. Not everyone has to work an 80 week to be good at what they do.

I don't completely disagree but its got nothing to do with the OP issues.

Its not on topic. But a lot of places put no value on life/work balance.

beauf

In summary....

quinnd6 wrote: »

2006 degree
9 months Experience 2007 to 2008.
(2012)MySql 5.0 certification
(2014) Java SE7 Professional Programmer cert
No portfolio.

You need to do a bunch of projects, and build a portfolio of work.

La Fenetre

beauf wrote: »

I don't completely disagree but its got nothing to do with the OP issues.

Its not on topic. But a lot of places put no value on life/work balance.

You brought it up, and if a workplace doesn't truly value work life balance, it doesn't mean it's wiser employees don't have to. The point before you went off topic, is that the OP can still enjoy doing development, and have a great career in another area of IT, without working as a developer in his day job, if in his situation, it opens up more, and better, opportunities for him.