Can't get any experience or work as a Junior Java Developer

Johngoose

Try Logi Skills recruiters based in Little Island in Cork, they are also in Dublin. I found them very professional in getting me a job. I've also gone up in salary thanks to them!

beauf

La Fenetre wrote: »

You brought it up, and if a workplace doesn't truly value work life balance, it doesn't mean it's wiser employees don't have to. The point before you went off topic, is that the OP can still enjoy doing development, and have a great career in another area of IT, without working as a developer in his day job, if in his situation, it opens up more, and better, opportunities for him.

Actually I replied to your comment. " last thing a full time developer wants to do is more coding in the evenings". I just don't think that's applicable to someone trying to get into development these days. Getting into development by crossing over from another role, isn't impossible. Its just much harder. Forgetting development as a career and doing something else in IT. Is certainly an alternative.

beauf

Might be an idea to talk to an agency to see how your skillet compares in their opinion, to your competition.

La Fenetre

beauf wrote: »

Actually I replied to your comment. " last thing a full time developer wants to do is more coding in the evenings". I just don't think that's applicable to someone trying to get into development these days. Getting into development by crossing over from another role, isn't impossible. Its just much harder. Forgetting development as a career and doing something else in IT. Is certainly an alternative.

If you want to be a pedant, you can revise it to the following "the last thing many established full time developers with years of experience, want to do, is more coding in the evenings, when they can explore other areas of IT" I didn't say it was applicable to someone trying to get into development, so don't make up what I didn't say. The point I was making, is that you don't have to do development as your day job to have a fulfilling career in IT and still enjoy development. It was addressed at the OP who because he can't get a job in development since 2008, he was thinking of packing IT in completely and working in a shop. A perfectly viable option is instead trying another career in a field of IT that he enjoys, that could be just as good, and offer far more opportunities to him, than he currently has seeking only work as a developer.

beauf

La Fenetre wrote: »

...so don't make up what I didn't say...

But I didn't. I quoted you... or gave my opinion "I just don't think that's applicable"

beauf wrote: »

... Forgetting development as a career and doing something else in IT. Is certainly an alternative.

Otherwise, I've already agreed with you. Dunno if the OP wants to do that though.

Felix Culpa

I'm a tech recruiter and likely someone who has previously ignored your CV.

There are three basic levels where you can fall into as a Java Dev: Intern, fresh grad and experienced.

Interns are free, can help with some very basic stuff, they usually receive more out of the engagement than the company. They're free and they add some small value.

Fresh grads are the most expensive candidates and are viewed mostly as investments to companies. Lots of money goes into training, both on the job and external. After about a year they generally start to add real value.

Experienced Devs are usually the cheapest. You pay them a huge amount, but they add real value from day one.

My advice to you, intern for a year then go on a grad programme. You can't shortcut this, you've been out of work and need to prove yourself in a commercial environment. Certification courses are great to learn more, but worthless from most employers perspectives (I've done coursera courses on Java, Python and Scala but I am definitely not a developer).

La Fenetre

beauf wrote: »

But I didn't. I quoted you... or gave my opinion "I just don't think that's applicable"

What actually happened was that you cut one sentence out of an entire paragraph, cut off the beginning of the sentence, and then proceeded to take it out of context. When this was pointed out to you, you then you claimed I said it was advice for someone looking to get into development, which is also untrue, in fact it's aimed at someone who can't get into development since 2008, after seven years of trying, but might well be able to get into another area of IT, while reassuring them they can still do development on the side if they so wish.

beauf wrote: »

Otherwise, I've already agreed with you. Dunno if the OP wants to do that though.

If he can't get into development since 2008, after seven years of trying, I can't see what the problem is of giving him some alternatives to think about.

bpmurray

I think the OP should go back to first principles. If there are no responses to his CV, then his CV isn't good enough. End of.

It may be that the gaps look bad or that it's badly put together. He said that someone has looked at it: did one of his mates look at it, or someone who regularly hires people? If the former, that's not much good; if the latter, then (s)he should have been able to give some feedback which should have been acted upon.

I'd also suggest that plain old Java isn't going to cut it any more. Since most applications are focused on the web now, there's a need to be able to add REST support and the web front end to the Java stuff which itself should include Spring/Hibernate/etc.

beauf

Felix Culpa wrote: »

....My advice to you, intern for a year then go on a grad programme. You can't shortcut this, you've been out of work and need to prove yourself in a commercial environment. Certification courses are great to learn more, but worthless from most employers perspectives .......

Out of curiosity do you see many people successfully switching from non programming roles into programming. Or indeed getting back into it after some years of not doing it. If there are any, what did they they do to get a role.

Felix Culpa

beauf wrote: »

Out of curiosity do you see many people successfully switching from non programming roles into programming. Or indeed getting back into it after some years of not doing it. If there are any, what did they they do to get a role.

Build stuff for yourself, become hip. If you graduated in 2008, do you even understand the newer concepts introduced in V7/V8? What frameworks do you use? What do you prefer, back or front end? Bash down doors for internships, do well there, get your confidence back.

If you graduated in 2008, you're like what 30? That's not too late to start from scratch. At all.

beauf

I was curious have you seen other people crossover from other roles. Or are you implying intern-ships are the only route you've seen.

This thread reminds of an earlier thread on a similar topic.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057519959

Felix Culpa

beauf wrote: »

I was curious have you seen other people crossover from other roles. Or are you implying intern-ships are the only route you've seen.

This thread reminds of an earlier thread on a similar topic.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057519959

Internships or personal projects, you need something to prove that you're good. I know a guy that was in construction until his late twenties. He's a technical lead now after about five years of experience.

Sheeps

OP, if you are still looking for a role you can pm me your C.V and I can offer you feedback and pass it on to our organisation development team. Should be able to bring you in for an interview.

moycullen14

beauf wrote: »

Out of curiosity do you see many people successfully switching from non programming roles into programming. Or indeed getting back into it after some years of not doing it. If there are any, what did they they do to get a role.

I did. Basically did very little from 2002 to 2012 and found it relatively easy to get back in.

I would say my experience up-to 2002 was excellent and - for the time - very employable.

I had a fair amount of Java, Perl, C++, Oracle, Unix but most of these would have been far less attractive in 2012 than they were in 2002.

To cut a very long story short, I did some loss-leading development work with Android & Iphone apps - I was paid but I might as well not have been. I boned up on Spring/Hibernate, Javascript and the more modern features of Java/JEE.

To be honest, the fundamental things still apply. Databases are still databases. With java most things that would have been hand-rolled back in the day are packaged now (e.g. ORMS).

My oracle knowledge was still sound (if I could remember it),
*NIX especially shell scripting sysadmin hasn't changed a whole lot
Java is still java even though the ecosystem is now huge
tomcat/apache are still pretty much the same.
perl may be in decline but python is a snap

My CV accounted for all of the time in between. Some of it may have been a little creative but I could stand over it. Huge gaps are a red flag. Assuming you have been doing something other than watching Judge Judy, put it down.

Practice interviews if you can. Nothing worse than being caught on basics that you claim to know. (One interview I had, I couldn't remember TNSNAMES.ORA - not very credible for someone with extensive Oracle skills :eek:)

Maybe your problem is agents. They tend to filter based on absolute criteria. Maybe your CV fails their basic tests. If that's the case then either change the CV or bypass agents. In fact, If you are a 'troublesome' candidate then going direct may be more successful.

Try small companies - their recruitment processes are probably a bit more ad-hoc than multinationals.

What you need is a hook - a way to connect to the interviewer. That's how I got my first start after my 'break'. I had a few unsuccessful interviews that consisted of someone 'testing' me from a script. I hit pay dirt when I met someone of roughly my own age and we could relate to each other (on the topic of working for Americans of all things).

All you need is a start. Once you have been working in a company for a year or so that's all anyone will ever look at again. Let that be your focus.

Generating a portfolio, while worthwhile, is going to take a long time and probably won't solve your problem in the short run. Unless, of course, you have a body of work that can be packaged.



tl;dr Be creative, try and bypass agents and HR departments and I'd say you'll have more success.

neilk32

My advice is:

• As everybody else said, you need to build up a portfolio/github so people can see you can code.
• Volunteer for your local Coder Dojo this will look great on your CV and you'll be helping out
• Contribute to Open Source projects there is some really great ones out there. Even if you start with just fixing bugs and updating docs, this can still be added to your CV. This site can help with ideas https://openhatch.org/search/?q=&language=Java
• At this point you should be getting interviews read the book "Cracking The Coding Interview" and complete all the exercises

yes there

Sheeps wrote: »

OP, if you are still looking for a role you can pm me your C.V and I can offer you feedback and pass it on to our organisation development team. Should be able to bring you in for an interview.

The best post I have ever seen on here. OP there is your lifeline.

Buford T Justice

yes there wrote: »

The best post I have ever seen on here. OP there is your lifeline.

What this forum is for really.

MillField

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Fixing bugs is what most developers spend most of their time doing. Especially junior ones with almost no experience!

Can confirm. :P

quinnd6

I just wanted to say I have had zero luck.
I'm still unemployed and looking.
Nothing useful came out of anything here.
I'm currently studying the laravel framework and trying to learn more about php.
When I have learnt it all there doesn't seem to be any jobs in sight anyway because every job asks for 2 years or more experience.
I'm starting to wonder if I should give up on software development completely now and do something else.
I really don't know what else I could or want to do now.
I've changed ram and my gpu in my pc once and had luck solving problems for family pcs so I suppose I could learn how to fix pcs.
It's been 8 years on the dole and a degree in Computer Applications wasted and nothing out of it.
It's time to get realistic about this.
There seems to be no kind of future or opportunities available in this industry for me.
I don't want to be unemployed for the rest of my life.
I want to get a job while I'm still young.

Graham

How far along are you learning Laravel?

quinnd6

I was looking at Code Executable's tutorials on youtube.
I did crud yesterday so am looking at Advanced Routing now.

youcancallmeal

You could possibly look at getting into a company via a separate route and transfer into a developer once you've established yourself? Like maybe a general tech support role or even as a tester. You could do the foundation testers cert(ISTQB) which is supposed to be easy enough to pass with a bit of study

ARGINITE

Did you forward your CV to Sheeps and get their feedback?

Are you limiting your search to just Ireland?
Expanding it to the UK would open a lot more opportunities to you.

ARGINITE

Double post from the browser, weird!

Tar.Aldarion

quinnd6 wrote: »

I just wanted to say I have had zero luck.
I'm still unemployed and looking.
Nothing useful came out of anything here.
I'm currently studying the laravel framework and trying to learn more about php.
When I have learnt it all there doesn't seem to be any jobs in sight anyway because every job asks for 2 years or more experience.
I'm starting to wonder if I should give up on software development completely now and do something else.
I really don't know what else I could or want to do now.
I've changed ram and my gpu in my pc once and had luck solving problems for family pcs so I suppose I could learn how to fix pcs.
It's been 8 years on the dole and a degree in Computer Applications wasted and nothing out of it.
It's time to get realistic about this.
There seems to be no kind of future or opportunities available in this industry for me.
I don't want to be unemployed for the rest of my life.
I want to get a job while I'm still young.

have you had interviews? What happened in them?

Several grads started here recently, there are definitely roles there.

Giblet

Do you have a link to your github?

quinnd6

ARGINITE wrote: »

Did you forward your CV to Sheeps and get their feedback?

Are you limiting your search to just Ireland?
Expanding it to the UK would open a lot more opportunities to you.

I did indeed forward my CV to Sheeps.
It was very good of him to offer to help.
It unfortunately didn't lead to a job though.
I'm limiting my job search to Ireland because I don't want to have to move to the UK. It probably wouldn't be any easier getting a job in the UK anyway.

If anyone wants to see my github page you can PM me and I'll give you a link.

colm_c

What positions are you applying for? There won't be many, if any advertised positions looking for zero experience.

You need to look for graduate/intern programmes.

Do some freelance gigs, local web sites/apps either for a small fee or for free. This will not only build your portfolio and skills, but you can also use it as experience on your CV.

quinnd6

I'm too long out of college to look at graduate programmes.
They will only take on people just out of college.
They won't bother taking on people who have been out of college for 9 years.
Someone pm'd me yesterday about a possible job so maybe something positive will come out of that.
I'll let ye know on here if I have any luck or not.

a fat guy

Have you considered doing a masters conversion course? An actual masters might be a bit too much for you, but a conversion is meant for people with no IT skills at all. WIT has a masters that costs 2 grand after skillet, etc.

If you still unemployed in 4 months time, I'd consider applying to the nearest IT institution. Or university if you can afford it. If not, just keep making appearances at any local meetups there are in your area.

Where are you from by the way?