Can't get any experience or work as a Junior Java Developer

quinnd6

I've been looking for a job as junior java developer or junior php developer and I can get absolutely nothing.
I have a software engineering degree and the professional developer ceritification in MySql and the professional programmer ceritifcation in Java that I got while out of work and it seems to make zero difference at all infact it's completely useless.
I've been out of work since 2008 so I did those java and mysql courses and studied at home.
I only have 9 months experience working at a company in Dublin as a Junior Java Developer and after that was over I could get nothing.
I can't get a job or an internship.
Every job asks for 2 or more years experience and I'm too old for graduate roles and they all require a fricking 2.1 grade anyway.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what the heck I could do to get some experience?

If I don't get something soon I'm thinking of packing it all in and doing a minimum paid job in a shop. I hate having wasted all that time and studying on it and giving up and getting nothing from it.

Stheno

Am I right in thinking it's seven years since you were in a role related to your qualifications?

ScottStorm

Have you got a portfolio of work?

Have you any contacts who could help prep you for programming interviews?

Stheno

How long since you got your degree? and If it's 2008 is there any issue that has prevented you from working in that time?

doolox

I was in a similar situation, I had a level 7 qual in Electronics and a level 6 diploma in IT all terribly out dated and little or no up to date experience etc so not wanted. I can get much more from working free lance in a completely unrelated area of work making my own way and working my own ( much shorter) hours in something I LOVE doing.

Too many people are jumping on the technology/programming hi tech bandwagon without realising how difficult, demanding, time consuming and low paid it really is.

Think sport, art or music. SOME people, the very lucky few , make good money at it but most people scrape by with a bare living wage if they get any pay at all.

The trick with technology jobs seems to be to research a certain area of science or general knowledge and then to turn that body of scarce and arcane knowledge into a computer application without your competitors stealing it and copying it before you can turn it into money, either by securing and selling the rights to the program by licence or outright sale. This is the hard part of making money and is not for everybody.

Great coders do not necessarily make big money. Experts on contract law and monetisation do.

quinnd6

I got my degree in 2006.
I worked for 9 months from 2007 to 2008.
I went to a good few interviews in 2008 and couldn't manage to get any work out of it. The last interview I did I think was in 2012.
I don't know what was stopping me I suppose I was a bit nervous at interview stage.
I don't have a portfolio.
My certs aren't that old I have a Java SE7 Professional Programmer cert from last year and MySql 5.0 certification from 2012.
I apply for jobs and hear nothing back.
I might get the rare call from an agency but it never results in anything.
It's looking kinda grim.
Apart from applying for any internships I see I really don't know what else I can do.
Someone suggested helping out on open source projects online but that's more about fixing bugs, I don't think that would get me the kind of experience necessary to get a job.
I'm open to suggestions.

Slydice

I'm very unexperienced to help but one thing jumps to mind:
- find out what recruiting companies help find java developers work in companies that do java developing
- go to the recruiters
- ask them if they can get you a job
- whether or not they can, ask them for advice on getting java jobs

Nutrient

Majority of applicants fail to show bodies of work, people that are passionate programmers are just checking one of many prerequisites to these jobs, employers get many of these applications which very little difference between each other.

You may be too old for Graduate position but you're to able for internship roles.

If you haven't already, Get a github account and add your work there, it is a great resource that not only shows you've an understanding of using not just repositories but always allows you to display you work with ease.

Final thing I can say is this; everyone I know thats had success landing a job in programming was always, ALWAYS programming for their projects, always busy, remain diligent and Im sure you will have no problem getting a job.

Tom Dunne

It seems extremely unusual for a Java programmer to be out of work, such is the demand, so I wonder are there broader issues with your application?

Have you had somebody review your CV for formatting, language, grammar and structure? Have you written cover letters and had them looked at also?

SimonTemplar

doolox wrote: »

I was in a similar situation, I had a level 7 qual in Electronics and a level 6 diploma in IT all terribly out dated and little or no up to date experience etc so not wanted. I can get much more from working free lance in a completely unrelated area of work making my own way and working my own ( much shorter) hours in something I LOVE doing.

Too many people are jumping on the technology/programming hi tech bandwagon without realising how difficult, demanding, time consuming and low paid it really is.

Think sport, art or music. SOME people, the very lucky few , make good money at it but most people scrape by with a bare living wage if they get any pay at all.

The trick with technology jobs seems to be to research a certain area of science or general knowledge and then to turn that body of scarce and arcane knowledge into a computer application without your competitors stealing it and copying it before you can turn it into money, either by securing and selling the rights to the program by licence or outright sale. This is the hard part of making money and is not for everybody.

Great coders do not necessarily make big money. Experts on contract law and monetisation do.

I think you are painting a very negative picture of a development career. Developers aren't super rich but I wouldn't say they are low paid.

Stheno

quinnd6 wrote: »

I got my degree in 2006.
I worked for 9 months from 2007 to 2008.
I went to a good few interviews in 2008 and couldn't manage to get any work out of it. The last interview I did I think was in 2012.
I don't know what was stopping me I suppose I was a bit nervous at interview stage.
I don't have a portfolio.
My certs aren't that old I have a Java SE7 Professional Programmer cert from last year and MySql 5.0 certification from 2012.
I apply for jobs and hear nothing back.
I might get the rare call from an agency but it never results in anything.
It's looking kinda grim.
Apart from applying for any internships I see I really don't know what else I can do.
Someone suggested helping out on open source projects online but that's more about fixing bugs, I don't think that would get me the kind of experience necessary to get a job.
I'm open to suggestions.

What have you worked at since 2008?

Mrs OBumble

quinnd6 wrote: »

Someone suggested helping out on open source projects online but that's more about fixing bugs, I don't think that would get me the kind of experience necessary to get a job.
I'm open to suggestions.

Fixing bugs is what most developers spend most of their time doing. Especially junior ones with almost no experience!

Musicman2000

doolox wrote: »

I was in a similar situation, I had a level 7 qual in Electronics and a level 6 diploma in IT all terribly out dated and little or no up to date experience etc so not wanted. I can get much more from working free lance in a completely unrelated area of work making my own way and working my own ( much shorter) hours in something I LOVE doing.

Too many people are jumping on the technology/programming hi tech bandwagon without realising how difficult, demanding, time consuming and low paid it really is.

Think sport, art or music. SOME people, the very lucky few , make good money at it but most people scrape by with a bare living wage if they get any pay at all.

The trick with technology jobs seems to be to research a certain area of science or general knowledge and then to turn that body of scarce and arcane knowledge into a computer application without your competitors stealing it and copying it before you can turn it into money, either by securing and selling the rights to the program by licence or outright sale. This is the hard part of making money and is not for everybody.

Great coders do not necessarily make big money. Experts on contract law and monetisation do.

This is a good post. I was in the same position found it very hard to get my foot in the door. You hear every day companies crying out to fill IT roles. In my honest opinion this is complete rubbish maybe in some niche areas and development roles. I had to move to the UK and found it much easier to get work.

I still keep an eye on the Irish Recruitment sites most days. The majority of IT positions are in Dublin with a scattering around Cork and Galway. Dublin is not an option for a lot of people as the cost of rent is crazy.

The way its going the market is getting to flooded with IT graduates making it a lot harder to get a position. Maybe you could look in the UK.
IT over in the UK is really classed as trade and they offer fantastic apprenticeships and its great experience unlike someone coming out with a degree that is pretty much a waste of 4 years as I found out.

my friend

Stheno wrote: »

What have you worked at since 2008?

Hey man, it's only 7 years like

Tar.Aldarion

OP you aren't too old to start a grad role, I know of people in their 40s that gave, and its what you should apply for . having scjp is good, have a look at your CV and interview skills with a recruitment agency.

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I think you are painting a very negative picture of a development career. Developers aren't super rich but I wouldn't say they are low paid.

We aren't low paid, he was just comparing to better paid professions here. There is a big difference between starting on 25-35k here and grads starting on 100-180k + stock in the more popular part of the US.

TrustedApple

Hay i know no grads who are getting 25K + a year in IT none of my friends are and i am not myself i had to take crap wages just to get my leg in the door people think its that easy to get a job i wish people will change there CV to just out of college for a IT job and see how hard it is. I have had friends who have not even got a interview since they left college and loads don't even work in IT as they could not get a job in it !!!.

quinnd6

I'd be willing to take less than 25k a year and travel up and down to Dublin.
I think I'll apply for some graduate roles so.
I'll try applying for more internships aswell.
My CV and Cover Letter are fine.
They have been looked at.
I also have a github account where I add whatever code I do.

Does anyone know of any good open source java projects I could try contributing to in the mean time?
I've done all the OCJP7 material in Java and have studied some Spring and Hibernate so if I could find an open source project requiring that kind of coding it would be something I could try in the meantime.

JonDoe

I quit IT in 2008. there's an over supply of talent out here, if a company needs someone specialized they'll hire an Asian (and no I'm not racist, you can ask my flatmates from Kerala) and get 5 years out of em at 25k before they get citizenship and have a choice to move on. Sad state of affairs but true, we're in a global depression don't know if they'll ever be undersupply again. I'm not going to wreck my head programming if there's no pay day. 20 years ago, it was a goldmine for all but now the majority off programmers would be better off stacking shelves once you consider you don't get paid for overtime by most employers. Then when you're 40 it's downsize time.

ixus

You need to answer this question:

What have you been doing since 2008?

You don't necessarily have to tell users here though, it might help. There is a huge gap in your CV and any recruiter, HR or anyone reviewing CV's will instantly ask that question to themselves. You get moved to the bottom of the pile, almost by default.

You're talking about travelling up to Dublin for sub 25k. Where are you coming from? Take someone who's recruitings perspective: here's a CV from a lad living in Leitrim or wherever who hasn't worked for 7 years and doesn't fill the gaps in CV. Next.

Sounds like you didn't get a 2.1 either. Next.

This sounds like how you are presenting yourself and why you are getting passed on.

Would this be accurate?

Are you actually any good at java or other languages? What's your interest level, knowledge of the current trends etc?

These arebthe things i would be looking for in a CV or cover letter and likely how a person viewing a black and white piece of paper with words on it searching for a certain criteria.

youcancallmeal

I think you're leaving out some crucial piece of information? I've been working in the IT industry for a long time and I can't think of anyone I know at any level from entry right up to architect who were any more than a couple of months looking for a job in the past couple of years.

Musicman2000

youcancallmeal wrote: »

I think you're leaving out some crucial piece of information? I've been working in the IT industry for a long time and I can't think of anyone I know at any level from entry right up to architect who were any more than a couple of months looking for a job in the past couple of years.

Depends on experience really. Its not as easy as it was. In Dublin its probably handy enough to get something its a different ball game outside Dublin.

quinnd6

I'm not leaving out an effing thing.
I studied for the certifications because I couldn't get any work.
It's a crap situation to be in but that's how it is.
I can't turn back time.

youcancallmeal

Musicman2000 wrote: »

Depends on experience really. Its not as easy as it was. In Dublin its probably handy enough to get something its a different ball game outside Dublin.

Yes perhaps location is the key, seems to be booming in Dublin the last few years

TrustedApple

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Yes perhaps location is the key, seems to be booming in Dublin the last few years

Well i was looking at moving to Dublin and i have all the certs and a degree and i got like 1 interview in 7 months up there :rolleyes:

quinnd6

I've been looking specifically at Dublin and it's far from booming for someone like me.
If no one gives you the opportunity to get experience how the flip are you supposed to get experience.

TrustedApple

quinnd6 wrote: »

I've been looking specifically at Dublin and it's far from booming for someone like me.

I know how you fell there is a course that one of my friends did in Dublin for App dev with Java if your signing on its about 6 months long could you look at doing something like that foe the time being and then apply for jobs as thats how he got a job in the end ?.

quinnd6

Does it have any practical experience?

La Fenetre

Maybe set your sights on a tech support job, and get your foot in the door that way ? See what you like in that job, and pursue that.

Everyone who does IT in college for some reason wants to be a 'developer'. There's far more to IT than just development jobs, which are very over rated, and very over subscribed by job seekers, yet in reality, not better paid, r no more fulfilling than any other IT job. If you like development, you can still do your own on the side as a hobby (and probably enjoy it far more than if it were your day job) while working in one of the many other areas of IT.

Eugene Norman

It's all about experience. You are competing not for grad jobs then experience matters. If I were a Java dev, I'd get a portfolio of apps on Google Play and then apply for a mobile job. Money's pretty good there.

TrustedApple

quinnd6 wrote: »

Does it have any practical experience?

Yes it does you be working as part of a team for 2 apps and will be able to use them to get a job

http://www.devstream.io

Thats it there so have a look might be of some help for you.

quinnd6

Thanks but 6705 euros fee yikes.

TrustedApple

quinnd6 wrote: »

Thanks but 6705 euros fee yikes.

My friend done it for it for free ?. AS he was signing on You can apply and see if you have been signing for the right amount of time.

He told me it was a fantastic course and enjoyed it more then IT in college

Eugene Norman

Plenty of app devs are self taught. Think about it. The industry isn't around long enough for universities to catch up. In the first few years every iPhone dev was not only self taught but had to learn a new language, IDE, framework and probably had to buy a Mac.

syklops

quinnd6 wrote: »

If no one gives you the opportunity to get experience how the flip are you supposed to get experience.

More than one person has asked you do you have a portfolio but you've not responded so I'll assume thats a no. So first off, get together a portfolio. A github account is a good start.

Have you done any personal projects in the last 7 years? Did you contribute to any open source projects? Did you solve any bugs?

You said you dont mind commuting up to Dublin, where in the country are you?

quinnd6

It's about a 2 hour bus journey for me.
I don't have a portfolio.
Last thing I did was build a PHP online store type website.
Apart from that not really any project work, just going through code in tutorials trying to learn more things.

TrustedApple

Would you use meet up.com and go to the software dev meet up groups and see meet other software dev and work on projects with each other ?.

irishguy

Developer roles are some of the most challenging and pay the best in IT. Most large companies wont look at you if you dont have a 2.1, its expensive to train grads and a big risk for them. If you have been out of work that long you would be too big a risk for an employer for a dev role. Look at Manual QA, QA automation, ba role and your never too young to apply for grad program roles. Try the banks, smaller consultancy companies or startups.

Being a dev requires a certain aptitude and a love for development. You are competing with people who have this and go to tech talks, have side projects and read a LOT of IT related articles. If this doesnt sound like fun (and I know for lots of people it wont) then development isnt for you and you will find it hard to be successful in it. Look at other roles in IT to find one that suits you better and you will do very well.

Also look at moving to the UK to get the initial experience.

If all else fails become an accountant, lots of money to be made

quinnd6

Yes I would and that sounds like a good idea aswell the meetup.com idea that is.
To the irishguy moving to the UK isn't for me.
I want something in Ireland.
Don't QA roles require experience in QA anyway so wouldn't I be screwed in that aswell.

syklops

quinnd6 wrote: »

It's about a 2 hour bus journey for me.

Presumeably you are not mentioning that in your applications

I don't have a portfolio.

Make one.

Last thing I did was build a PHP online store type website.

First candidate for the portfolio.

Apart from that not really any project work, just going through code in tutorials trying to learn more things.

No better way to learn than by building things. There is surely some problem you've run into somewhere which could be solved with some code. Thats your next candidate for your portfolio. Look into doing bug bounties. Great way of getting demonstrable experience.

Don't QA roles require experience in QA anyway so wouldn't I be screwed in that area aswell

Start doing some QA of Open Source projects and hey presto you have QA experience.

JigglyMcJabs

doolox wrote: »

I was in a similar situation, I had a level 7 qual in Electronics and a level 6 diploma in IT all terribly out dated and little or no up to date experience etc so not wanted. I can get much more from working free lance in a completely unrelated area of work making my own way and working my own ( much shorter) hours in something I LOVE doing.

Too many people are jumping on the technology/programming hi tech bandwagon without realising how difficult, demanding, time consuming and low paid it really is.

Think sport, art or music. SOME people, the very lucky few , make good money at it but most people scrape by with a bare living wage if they get any pay at all.

The trick with technology jobs seems to be to research a certain area of science or general knowledge and then to turn that body of scarce and arcane knowledge into a computer application without your competitors stealing it and copying it before you can turn it into money, either by securing and selling the rights to the program by licence or outright sale. This is the hard part of making money and is not for everybody.

Great coders do not necessarily make big money. Experts on contract law and monetisation do.

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree. Yes it is difficult and demanding (I spent most of my Sunday researching a problem I couldn't solve last week in work, so I can hit the ground running tomorrow).

But I went from no IT qualifications or experience in 2010, to being paid a lot more than the average industrial wage plus great benefits, doing something I find really interesting. From first hand experience, there are lots of jobs out there for junior and senior developers.

In interviews, senior developers are usually put through their paces technically and have to prove their up to a high level, junior devs however are interviewed mainly on attitude and aptitude.
The course I did back in 2010 had 25 people on it, 1 of them was a nutter and remaind unemployed, all the rest found employment as analysts or developers within a couple of months. There were less opportunities around in 2010 than there are now.

I will say though that you really do have to stay up to date, a friend of mine had 8 years Java experience, gained in one job doing middleware for telecoms companies. He was made redundant and had a hard time finding any dev work, he went back and did a masters in software development to prove he was up to date, which was an absolute doddle for him, but he was hired by a multinational straight out of that course and is flying now.

irishguy

quinnd6 wrote: »

Yes I would and that sounds like a good idea aswell the meetup.com idea that is.
To the irishguy moving to the UK isn't for me.
I want something in Ireland.
Don't QA roles require experience in QA anyway so wouldn't I be screwed in that aswell.

As a grad you really need to take whatever your given for a couple of years to get experience, so move to where the work is.

QA/BA roles would be less technical and companies would be more willing to hire an in experienced junior. Apply for any role that says 2 years experience 2 years is recruiter speak for grad that has a bit of cop on.

Go do the SCJP exam, that will cover most interview questions. Then do some of the AWS online courses. Go build yourself a website or mobile app (AngularJS/native Android) with a RESTFUL webservice on the backend i.e. SpringBoot (Or Play+Scala if your feeling very adventurous) using DynamoDB or Aurora/RDS as the database. Stick it all on github, add it to your linkedin/cv.

If you can find a local group/charity to do this for all the better. Then apply for every job that has 2 years experience, if you do your project right, pass SCJP and I can view the code before your interview I would hire you.

Give this 6/9months if you dont get a job in that timeframe I would consider changing your focus from development.

Singer

Hey there quinnd6,

Certifications are ok to get you in the door of some places, but they're not replacement for experience, and as you've found out the hard way you're not a recent grad you won't be able to get through the door via the usual graduate programs. However, all is far from lost.

If you want to be a programmer, build things that people use. If you want to find a job, you need to network. Knowing more languages/frameworks etc. will give you more options. Here are some suggestions... feel free to ask questions

There were already some good suggestions on this thread about looking at Android development, as it's Java based and Android devs are in demand. Build an app, put some server side component up in AWS's free tier, get your friends and family to use the app and learn about building and shipping software. Maybe try to find somebody to build a free app or website for - a friend's business or whatever. Or scratch an itch for something you want to do. It doesn't need to be anything revolutionary or cutting edge, just learn as you're going along and keep improving.

Going to meetups is a good way of learning and networking, though I'd expect that they'll be quieter in December as folks wind down for Christmas (DevOps Ireland is good but it's relatively niche compared to where you are: http://www.meetup.com/Dublin-DevOps-Meetup/events/227071228/ ). Volunteering with CoderDojo is also a good active way of meeting people, using your coding skills, learning how to teach and looks good on a CV.

Take a look at Coursera courses - expanding the languages you're good at will open more doors. Ruby (look at Ruby On Rails), Python and Javascript (maybe look at some Node.js or frameworks like Ember.js) are good languages to consider. https://www.coursera.org/browse/computer-science/mobile-and-web-development?languages=en

Reading these links may give you some insight what it's like to be on the other side and what (some) employers are looking for:
https://blog.intercom.io/how-we-hire-engineers-part-1/
https://blog.intercom.io/how-we-hire-engineers-part-2-culture-contribution/

Best of luck!

syklops

Singer wrote: »

Hey there syklops,

Certifications are ok to get you in the door of some places, but they're not replacement for experience, and as you've found out the hard way you're not a recent grad you won't be able to get through the door via the usual graduate programs. However, all is far from lost.

If you want to be a programmer, build things that people use. If you want to find a job, you need to network. Knowing more languages/frameworks etc. will give you more options. Here are some suggestions... feel free to ask questions

There were already some good suggestions on this thread about looking at Android development, as it's Java based and Android devs are in demand. Build an app, put some server side component up in AWS's free tier, get your friends and family to use the app and learn about building and shipping software. Maybe try to find somebody to build a free app or website for - a friend's business or whatever. Or scratch an itch for something you want to do. It doesn't need to be anything revolutionary or cutting edge, just learn as you're going along and keep improving.

Going to meetups is a good way of learning and networking, though I'd expect that they'll be quieter in December as folks wind down for Christmas (DevOps Ireland is good but it's relatively niche compared to where you are: http://www.meetup.com/Dublin-DevOps-Meetup/events/227071228/ ). Volunteering with CoderDojo is also a good active way of meeting people, using your coding skills, learning how to teach and looks good on a CV.

Take a look at Coursera courses - expanding the languages you're good at will open more doors. Ruby (look at Ruby On Rails), Python and Javascript (maybe look at some Node.js or frameworks like Ember.js) are good languages to consider. https://www.coursera.org/browse/computer-science/mobile-and-web-development?languages=en

Reading these links may give you some insight what it's like to be on the other side and what (some) employers are looking for:
https://blog.intercom.io/how-we-hire-engineers-part-1/
https://blog.intercom.io/how-we-hire-engineers-part-2-culture-contribution/

Best of luck!

I think you are addressing the wrong poster there. My career is already established

P.S. theres a new course on Coursera on git. I highly recommend it to anyone who finds git confusing.

Singer

syklops wrote: »

I think you are addressing the wrong poster there. My career is already established

P.S. theres a new course on Coursera on git. I highly recommend it to anyone who finds git confusing.

It's great advice anyway - I've corrected the post, thanks.

Sure, nobody finds git confusing: https://xkcd.com/1597/

Stheno

@ OP the gap in your c.v. would be the biggest issue I would have, I'd wonder why someone who qualified so long ago has never gotten a job in the field tbh.

As for those saying that there are no jobs in IT, there are plenty in IT, but employers are not going to take on just anyone

syklops

Plenty of IT jobs, albeit mostly in dublin. As you say the gap on the CV will be the main thing off putting employers, plus the absence of much done in 7 years. I recently got asked to explain a 3 month gap on my CV. I was moving countries at the time which they accepted.

Eugene Norman

Start a company and the gap on your cv ends. The company doesn't have to do much (and you could have a real job) but at least do some app or website dev.

syklops

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Start a company and the gap on your cv ends. The company doesn't have to do much (and you could have a real job) but at least do some app or website dev.

Terrific idea.

Evil Phil

There's projects on http://codeforireland.com/ looking for contributors, you won't get paid but you will end up with code you can show to prospective employers.

Nody

//MOD

Please note new charter applies.

//MOD

Call Me Jimmy

syklops wrote: »

Terrific idea.

You guys are saying to start a company to make an app for someone who is unemployed, really? (Understand I'm not disagreeing with you, just shocked), could you's explain more what you mean?

Is that not a huge undertaking? How does starting a company differ from just trying to make the app and releasing it (okay maybe if you have something that turns out to be really marketable then maybe you'd have to register a company?)

I'm intrigued, is it not risky?