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DCM 2015 Graduates: Chapter Next!
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Just a heads up, I will be updating the first week of the plan in the morning for any eager beavers or dawn runners the first actual day of running will be Tuesday so you won't be missing anything in the morning and also gives the Parkrunners an extra day of rest
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It's Monday already Myles - I'm ready to rock
Did my longest run since DCM this evening. 11M in 93 mins. Started off easy (8.45 pace) and gradually picked up the pace till the 10M mark (7.45 pace) and then a mile c/d.
Felt fine running, although legs were probably wondering wtf is this for a while!!!
Had to work at home this evening, so the legs seized up while I was sitting at the computer - felt like my legs were going to cramp (which I never experienced at all during DCM training). Took a nuun tab and stretched a bit, so hopefully will be fine in the morning.
Did a couple of slightly faster runs last week - and found them pretty tough on the joints / muscles afterwards. Hoping that once I get back into a program a bit more science will help with more effective training.
I am going to leave my targets unchanged for now (all these would be PB's based on my 'mid 40s' status)
5k: Sub 20 mins before Xmas (I feel this is the most achievable)
10k: Sub 43 mins by end of Feb (I have a shot at this but it would be tight)
Ballycotton 10M Sub 70 mins (starting to get really nervous about this)
HM: Sub 1:30 (I think this is a stretch too far, but it's always good to have one really stretch target!!)
DCM 2016: Sub 3:25 (11 min improvement on 2015, and I feel with the right program I can do this)
Myles - thanks again for taking this on, looking forward to seeing if you can help the 'treadmill trodder' improve 0 -
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Thanks for doing this myles
a) What are your main running goals for the next 3 to 12 months?
My main goals would be bringing down my 5 and 10k times. Will also aim for a 10mile in march.
b) In what way do you see this thread helping out
The same as the novices thread did, good company and sound advice.
I have been very slack since dcm I have only being doing short runs twice to three times a week. I would really like a plan to follow to get me back out more consistently.
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Right the marathon is done and dusted and hopefully minus a few bumps and niggles still lingering in some the bodies should be pretty much back to normal after the marathon.
The bad news first. Due to the necessary recovery you might find a bit of lost fitness, this is natural and necessary to an extent. The natural reaction is to not want to lose this fitness after the marathon but like all training sessions you need to stress and adapt. There is no such thing as over training, despite what you have heard, only under recovering. As such putting your body through +3 hours of stress like that takes this long to fully recover from.
The good news is that the marathon itself will help boost fitness in the long term as well as the fact that you are not start from the same point you were a few months ago. Regaining previous fitness always takes less time than attaining a new level as such every training cycle you go into (your 18 week marathon plan etc) despite the fitness level you start the plan at is building on the months and years of training you do previously. This is an important point as you don't always need to change the type of training you do for each plan in order to improve further, do the simple things right and you will see improvement, the volume or paces might change but as long as the plan is sensible and simple the template does not have to change hugely.
Right enough of the babble on to this weeks training
Week 1
Monday |OFF
Tuesday| 45 min easy
Wednesday| 10-15 minutes warm up, 10 minutes of strides, 10-15 minutes cooldown
Thursday|45 min easy
Friday| OFF
Saturday| 45 min easy (last 10 minutes at marathon effort)
Sunday| 75 minutes easy
No miles or km?
First thing people will notice is that I am not prescribing set miles but rather basing things on time. The reason for this is this plan while being a group plan is designed to have everyone on it working at the right intensity for the right amount of time what ever level they are at. Alot of plans out there will prescribe 20 mile runs, A x 400m reps etc but depending on your level these types of runs can be a million miles from each other depending on the person.
Take the following examples:
Runner A (2.40 minute marathon runner) would run a 20 mile run at easy pace (for arguments sake we will say roughly 7.30 min pace) and cover it in 2 hours 40 minutes
Runner B (4 hour marathon runner) running at easy (with same logic applied previously we shall say 10.30 min pace) would only cover just over 15 miles in that time frame.
In terms of the same effort by both runners then the training would be altered to 20 miles vs 15 miles. If they were to go by a plan that was based on miles however it would mean that Runner B is running at the same effort as runner A for nearly 50 minutes longer. The problem here is that recovery around that workout has to be changed then to take this into account but unfortunately with these generic plans it doesn't. There are other factors to consider as well (fatigue's impact on form, muscular endurance etc) but for the time being we will focus on the aim being aerobic development so we try to have the mileage match the runner rather than the opposite way around.
Similarly with reps:
A Classic 10k workout from McMillans 10k plan is 6x1 mile with 2 minutes recover. For a 30 minute 10k runner thats 6x5 minutes @ 10k pace with 2 minutes recovery (40% of total rep time). If your a 50 minute 10k runner you are running closer to 8 minutes and such the session completely changes as you are running 6x8 minutes at 10k pace with the same recovery. The problem is that the recovery is 25% of rep time. You then get to a paradox where you have people with less of an aerobic base built up over the years running for long, doing harder workouts with less recovery. This falls back on the point of under recovering.
Train to your ability and you will see progress rather than having training match the ability needed to run target times.
Before I go on in case I have bored the pants off people already. I want to remind people of one of the most important reasons for being sensible in training, beyond the PB's and adulation associated with running. If you ever find yourself in the below situation you can be safe in the knowledge that you have trained for it
Wednesday's session is as follows
10 minutes of roughly 80m to 120m of striding at harder than Marathon pace (preferably close to 5k effort) The main aim is to remain controlled, not to kill yourself running too hard, focus on getting the knees up and running relaxed in the upper body (try not to tense up around the shoulders) and get used to running faster. this should be followed by close to the same time or slightly longer at easy pace as recovery. No walking throughout session though which is why it is important to run steady on the harder parts.
Where you can do this type of session:
Grass - If you have access to a football pitch or any sort of rectangular shape it makes things easier you can do whats know as diagonals (see diagram below to explain)
[IMG]http://lh5.ggpht.com/_oEcvTzEYVmA/TSsvUzNiECI/AAAAAAAAAT0/ns_P4OfBOSc/s400/diagonals image.jpg" height="400" width="300"[/IMG]
If you have access to a track can keep it simple and stride the straights and jog the bends.
If you don't have access to these you can use the distance between Street lamps as markers - 2 lights steady 1 light easy
Falling all that use the watch 15 secs stride/ 20 sec easy
I will compile the spreadsheets for updates during the week so that people can fill in by weeks end as well as summary of posts made and the training plan to prevent them getting lost.
Also I will aim to get back to any questions along the way as quick as I possibly can.
Best of luck with it folks 0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »I was actually going to ask about time v distance. One of the things I was concerned with during my marathon plan was my lack of mileage due to my slowness!
There are those who will debate that the logic being that its 26.2 miles on the day no matter what level you are at so you need to be prepared for it.
I will agree with people on this to an extent on the day people without the miles in the legs can often come under trouble but rarely is this because of their aerobic fitness (provided they have still been putting in the time i.e 15 miles as an example above).
Normally this comes down to muscle endurance under fatigue in particular hip stabilizing muscles (TFL, Glute Medius etc) this is why you see so many IT band issues in Novice (or even just low mileage) marathon runners. These muscles have to be trained to cope with the stress. Ideally this is done by having a few years training and mileage done before you attempt your first marathon but in the absence of that there are two big things which can offset this
1) run more frequently during the week - most people run too long on their long runs from a recovery point of view. This means that they don't have a chance to run as much during the week. running your 45-60 min runs during the week more regularly will build this muscles up to point where slowly but surely they catch up with the aerobic fitness.
Aerobic development and structural readiness are independent of each other and often this is something overlooked when training for a marathon. Take someone straight off the couch and put them on a bike and tell them to cycle easy for as long as they possibly can. What you will find is that even without training the will be able to sustain low effort for a couple hours (though they would be in agony the next day) If you took that same person and told them to run for as long as they could. Provided they didn't go out too hard injury would stop them long before the aerobic fitness.
2) Strength and conditioning. Exercises such as squats and some which come under the understanding of "core" can be used to supplement the aerobic training without overloading these muscles. Because form won't deteriorate for a sustained amount of time like an excessively long run (if form gives out 2 hours into a 4 hour run you are still exerting the same pressures on the body for 2 hours after form has gone compared to maybe 1-2 reps at the end of a set) you are in control a bit more and is a way training without exhausting these muscles which will build up strength.
Think of these two methods as a cheat way of speeding up the muscle development process in relatively new runners so that it can catch up with aerobic development.
Regarding what I mean about hip stabilizing being compromised by fatigue here is an example (right)
The hips being off centre are putting extra pressure on the body further down (knee, calves, ankles ) and dramatically increase injury risk compared to the picture on the left0 -
Myles Splitz wrote: »
The hips being off centre are putting extra pressure on the body further down (knee, calves, ankles ) and dramatically increase injury risk compared to the picture on the left
Am I the only person who sees a bald man kissing a brown haired woman in Myles 'butt cheeks' picture ??
:D 0 -
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Week 1
Monday |OFF
Tuesday| 45 min easy
Wednesday| 10-15 minutes warm up, 10 minutes of strides, 10-15 minutes cooldown
Thursday|45 min easy
Friday| OFF
Saturday| 45 min easy (last 10 minutes at marathon effort)
Sunday| 75 minutes easy
No miles or km?
Thanks Myles
Sorry to be pain already, I was planning on doing Speed session with club
on Saturday Morning 400-500 m repeats on Grass, so would it be ok to
switch Wednesday with Saturday.0 -
Week 1
Monday |OFF
Tuesday| 45 min easy
Wednesday| 10-15 minutes warm up, 10 minutes of strides, 10-15 minutes cooldown
Thursday|45 min easy
Friday| OFF
Saturday| 45 min easy (last 10 minutes at marathon effort)
Sunday| 75 minutes easy
No miles or km?
Thanks Myles
Sorry to be pain already, I was planning on doing Speed session with club
on Saturday Morning 400-500 m repeats on Grass, so would it be ok to
switch Wednesday with Saturday.
No problem. Obviously this plan does not have to be set is stone and can fit around your normal life / club commitments.
The main thing to remember is that you should not do back to back hard days but after this if you need to move it around a bit to suit your needs than by all means work away.0 -
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I have a kwestion
In your explanation of Wednesday's workout, in the first paragraph you say that your recovery should be the same distance or slightly longer, but later you say that you should run steady for the long part of the pitch or 2 street lights, and easy for the width of the pitch or one street light.
Am I being completely stupid or should it be the other way around in one or the other?
Sorry if I'm just being a dope
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Deleted User wrote: »I have a kwestion
In your explanation of Wednesday's workout, in the first paragraph you say that your recovery should be the same distance or slightly longer, but later you say that you should run steady for the long part of the pitch or 2 street lights, and easy for the width of the pitch or one street light.
Am I being completely stupid or should it be the other way around in one or the other?
Sorry if I'm just being a dope
It depends on the length of the interval you're running.
Myles posted a table a page back with typical recoveries based off the pace of the effort.
So say for example you are running a 200m rep you might recover for double the rep time but if you're running a 1 mile interval you might recover for 50%-75% of the time it took you to run the mile.
Hopefully that makes sense?0 -
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Myles Splitz wrote: »There are those who will debate that the logic being that its 26.2 miles on the day no matter what level you are at so you need to be prepared for it.
I will agree with people on this to an extent on the day people without the miles in the legs can often come under trouble but rarely is this because of their aerobic fitness (provided they have still been putting in the time i.e 15 miles as an example above).
Normally this comes down to muscle endurance under fatigue in particular hip stabilizing muscles (TFL, Glute Medius etc) this is why you see so many IT band issues in Novice (or even just low mileage) marathon runners. These muscles have to be trained to cope with the stress. Ideally this is done by having a few years training and mileage done before you attempt your first marathon but in the absence of that there are two big things which can offset this
1) run more frequently during the week - most people run too long on their long runs from a recovery point of view. This means that they don't have a chance to run as much during the week. running your 45-60 min runs during the week more regularly will build this muscles up to point where slowly but surely they catch up with the aerobic fitness.
Aerobic development and structural readiness are independent of each other and often this is something overlooked when training for a marathon. Take someone straight off the couch and put them on a bike and tell them to cycle easy for as long as they possibly can. What you will find is that even without training the will be able to sustain low effort for a couple hours (though they would be in agony the next day) If you took that same person and told them to run for as long as they could. Provided they didn't go out too hard injury would stop them long before the aerobic fitness.
2) Strength and conditioning. Exercises such as squats and some which come under the understanding of "core" can be used to supplement the aerobic training without overloading these muscles. Because form won't deteriorate for a sustained amount of time like an excessively long run (if form gives out 2 hours into a 4 hour run you are still exerting the same pressures on the body for 2 hours after form has gone compared to maybe 1-2 reps at the end of a set) you are in control a bit more and is a way training without exhausting these muscles which will build up strength.
Think of these two methods as a cheat way of speeding up the muscle development process in relatively new runners so that it can catch up with aerobic development.
Regarding what I mean about hip stabilizing being compromised by fatigue here is an example (right)
The hips being off centre are putting extra pressure on the body further down (knee, calves, ankles ) and dramatically increase injury risk compared to the picture on the left
Hi Myles, sorry for the hijack and not a graduate but I saw a photo of myself finishing a 10k recently and looking awfully what you describe above.
Would you have a few more pointers on a S&C routine that would help address it?0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »I have a kwestion
In your explanation of Wednesday's workout, in the first paragraph you say that your recovery should be the same distance or slightly longer, but later you say that you should run steady for the long part of the pitch or 2 street lights, and easy for the width of the pitch or one street light.
Am I being completely stupid or should it be the other way around in one or the other?
Sorry if I'm just being a dope
No wonder it seems. Confusing, I confused myself when typing (Whoopsie certainl top of the class for paying attention )
That should have read time so that even though the harder efforts are slighhtly longer, the shorter , easy segments should take as long if not a little longer as recovery. I have also updated the watch description of the session at the end to reflect this.
Apologies on the typo's0 -
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Hi everyone, I am here (thanks Mrs Mc!!)
Have been tipping away by myself but am delighted to have a plan again! Thanks also to Myles for taking us on
I did my 45 mins easy last night so have started already, tonight will be off as I have a gym class but I'm going to catch up on everything and map out the rest of my week!
Squeeeeeeeeeee!! So excited 0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
![http://lh5.ggpht.com/_oEcvTzEYVmA/TSsvUzNiECI/AAAAAAAAAT0/ns_P4OfBOSc/s400/diagonals image.jpg"](http://lh5.ggpht.com/_oEcvTzEYVmA/TSsvUzNiECI/AAAAAAAAAT0/ns_P4OfBOSc/s400/diagonals%20image.jpg"){kind=link}
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