Events Centre

robinbird

Why not just scrap the whole thing and put it out to tender again. With a top up of €50 million available.

H8GHOTI

Approaching the 4 year anniversary of that sod turning now, before the last general election.
Simon Coveney’s gone quiet, has he?

I see Micheál Martin was asked about it on Newstalk and said he’s committed to getting it completed. But what else is he going to say? Once he gets in, he’ll blame FG for it not going ahead.

CHealy

H8GHOTI wrote: »

Approaching the 4 year anniversary of that sod turning now, before the last general election.
Simon Coveney’s gone quiet, has he?

Only a tiny mention of it in his leaflet while he was canvassing in Douglas the weekend, despite giving paragraphs to other projects.

bingo9999

Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »

Walked past this place today. The student apartments look finished. I'm surprised there aren't students moved in already.
The middle section (offices mainly, I think) is progressing too with a lot of the heavy stuff being done at the moment.
The event centre is still being used as a storage/parking area. Looks to me like it was always the case that the event centre would come last in this sequence, if at all.

Thats the only thing that gives me comfort at this stage - that even if they were fully permitted and full steam ahead they would probably have to build out the rest of the stuff as far as the counting house and then start into the event centre and build themselves off the site. If so then some of the more recent ****eing around has probably not cost too much additional time

namloc1980

The saga rumbles on

marno21

Now so

https://twitter.com/eoinbearla/status/1224399573361287175

kub

Of course it does.

Is it the lovely business people in Killarney?

calnand

Looks like it is.

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1224451210897309696?s=20

Douglas Eegit

calnand wrote: »

Looks like it is.

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1224451210897309696?s=20

Gives us all a reason not to go to the INEC. Goes to show how much it's worth to him if he's willing to sink what must be a half million on a high court battle

robinbird

The decision to unilaterally give €50m to BAM was always going to be susceptible to a legal challenge.
And rightly so. The decision to give them the contract in the first place was very dodgy.
We would be better off abandoning the whole thing and starting from scratch.
Fighting this challenge could cost millions and delay it for years more. Even if the appeal is unsuccessful.

tototoe

robinbird wrote: »

The decision to unilaterally give €50m to BAM was always going to be susceptible to a legal challenge.
And rightly so. The decision to give them the contract in the first place was very dodgy.
We would be better off abandoning the whole thing and starting from scratch.
Fighting this challenge could cost millions and delay it for years more. Even if the appeal is unsuccessful.

Its bonkers to be giving them 50million of public money. It was 12 at one stage, and somehow jumped to 50..jog on. Someone is taking the micheal.
The inec are perfectly right to challenge it.

rebs23

tototoe wrote: »

Its bonkers to be giving them 50million of public money. It was 12 at one stage, and somehow jumped to 50..jog on. Someone is taking the micheal.
The inec are perfectly right to challenge it.

Kerry Airport gets several million every year in state subsidy which undermines Cork Airport yet no-one objects, not yet anyway. That's completely bonkers that the state supports 4 airports in Munster. We are seeking one Event Centre for the whole of the region.
I could see a fair few Judicial Review's the next time Kerry Airport seeks state funding. It's gotten far more than 50 million over the years.
Or the massive state funding to build office blocks in Limerick that compete unfairly with the private sector, over 30 million for the Hanging Gardens that is still half vacant, or the 12.5 million for Limerick Regeneration projects diverted to purchase the Opera site that is still not developed 10 years later, or the 200 million sweet heart deal for Shannon Airport/Shannon Development?

Acosta

Douglas Eegit wrote: »

Gives us all a reason not to go to the INEC.

There is never a reason to go to the INEC unless you're over 60 and have bad taste.

tototoe

rebs23 wrote: »

Kerry Airport gets several million every year in state subsidy which undermines Cork Airport yet no-one objects, not yet anyway. That's completely bonkers that the state supports 4 airports in Munster. We are seeking one Event Centre for the whole of the region.
I could see a fair few Judicial Review's the next time Kerry Airport seeks state funding. It's gotten far more than 50 million over the years.
Or the massive state funding to build office blocks in Limerick that compete unfairly with the private sector, over 30 million for the Hanging Gardens that is still half vacant, or the 12.5 million for Limerick Regeneration projects diverted to purchase the Opera site that is still not developed 10 years later, or the 200 million sweet heart deal for Shannon Airport/Shannon Development?

Cork has got loads of money over the years. The hard done by thing is utter horse manure. Puc was given loads of money as one example, and it was a complete mess of a project...and the only thing its been full for is a soccer thing, even the 2 westlife shows are not sold out.

Cork gets its fair share, but to think giving 2 companies 50m when they put in 35m and have to repay nothing is a good use of public funding then its all the one.. for a bloody concert venue.

bingo9999

tototoe wrote: »

Cork has got loads of money over the years. The hard done by thing is utter horse manure. Puc was given loads of money as one example, and it was a complete mess of a project...and the only thing its been full for is a soccer thing, even the 2 westlife shows are not sold out.

Cork gets its fair share, but to think giving 2 companies 50m when they put in 35m and have to repay nothing is a good use of public funding then its all the one.. for a bloody concert venue.

Cork contributes over 5B EUR to the economy of the state annually, and is the second city touted to create a counterbalanced centre of growth from Dublin - a contribution towards a stadium over the last decade (i.e. while Cork contributed c. 50B) hardly squares that circle bud

AwaitYourReply

tototoe wrote: »

Cork has got loads of money over the years. The hard done by thing is utter horse manure. Puc was given loads of money as one example, and it was a complete mess of a project...and the only thing its been full for is a soccer thing, even the 2 westlife shows are not sold out.

Cork gets its fair share, but to think giving 2 companies 50m when they put in 35m and have to repay nothing is a good use of public funding then its all the one.. for a bloody concert venue.

Cork does NOT get it's fair share of funding due to a whole host of different factors some are local government while others are central government mismanagement.

Páirc Uí Chaoimh is expected to cost somewhere in the region €95.8m so; the overrun was said to be in the region of +€10m. The GAA and Cork County Board have not had HawkEye technology installed at Cork's main GAA venue. This lack of foresight will probably ensure that Croke Park H.Q. in Dublin & Semple Stadium in Thurles are favoured over Cork as Páirc Uí Chaoimh in the years to come which will do little to assist it paying back it's debts.

Croke Park received a series of government grants worth around €108m after proceeding with the rebuilding in 1993. Then Minister for Finance Bertie Ahern made an allocation of £5m (€6.3m) in the 1994 budget, followed in 1997 by his successor Charlie McCreevy’s allocation of £20m (€25.4m). The final cost to the GAA of the project in McKenna’s words “wouldn’t have been too far off €285m” of which the association had to find the balancing €177m.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/croke-park-now-debt-free-20-years-after-commencing-its-redevelopment-1.1678397

* Cork Airport cannot compete effectively with Dublin Airport as it's run by the Dublin Airport Authority which offers cheaper flights to/from Dublin. Even Kerry Regional Airport enjoys PSO subsidies for flights to/from Dublin but not Cork!
*M20 Cork to Limerick route - dangerous and long overdue - negative impact on regional development between the South & Mid-West & West interconnectivity.
*M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy route - dangerous & long overdue with Port of Cork about to exit Tivoli and open container terminal in Ringaskiddy and so many Pharma industry vehicles & employees using an already very heavily congested route which is set to get worse if the road is not upgraded by the time all the hauliers have switched from Tivoli to Ringaskiddy.
*N22 Cork to Macroom bypass only got the final go ahead to proceed in October, 2019 after many years of major bottlenecks negatively impacting the region
*Northern Ring Road to north of city - Never happened yet - chronic traffic
*No hospital on the northside of Cork City since North Infirmary was closed back in the 1980's
*No third level institution has a major campus presence on Cork City's northside
*Cork Institute of Technology still not awarded "University" status after years working towards it.
*Serious overcrowding at Cork University Hospital & Mercy Hospital
*South Doc out of hours/emergency GP service in major crisis for some time
*Dunkettle Interchange near Jack Lynch Tunnel long overdue a major upgrade
*South Ring Road at full capacity - multiple accidents almost daily
*No light rail/rapid transit system similar to LUAS in place in Cork City with all it's traffic congestion
* Cork is the Republic of Ireland's second largest city not to mention Ireland's largest county and it does NOT even have a 50 metres swimming pool for Olympic training although; Dublin had it's first one installed about 20 years ago.
* New Air Rescue Ambulance introduced for the region is already starved of funding and Cork has probably one of the longest coastlines of any county to protect and patrol - has to rely on charity & goodwill! *
Helipad at CUH (the South of Ireland's major Trauma centre) long gone but in recent years landing nearby on "other grounds" and awaits planning permission for set up on CUH grounds AFAIK.

Meanwhile in Dublin the new National Children's Hospital by St. James Hospital just overruns & overruns (I think BAM is the main contractor on the project) but this is ok as it's located in Dublin!

Rural Broadband cost overruns significantly probably because they ended up with just ONE Tender left in the race but that's ok because they are the "preferred bidder". You could not make this up but when you are left with only one firm then there is something wrong when you can only select the only one that did not pull out of the process! The whole thing will probably be obsolete by time it's fully rolled out!

New Ross Bypass opened on 30th January and the overall cost is expected to reach €230 million and may lead to a shift in trade from Port of Cork to Rosslare as it's closer to Dublin. Brittany Ferries recent announcement of the cancellation of it's Cork to Santander, Spain route to be replaced by a new Rosslare to Bilbao route as from 28th February along with the mid-week Roscoff sailing also using Rosslare is another blow for Cork following improvements to the national road network outside of Cork.

Cork City's boundary was finally extended in 2019 (last time the city boundary was extended was during the 1960's) which saw a significant population increase.

Important investments & infrastructure like a Cork Events Centre should not be allowed to be challenged by Gleneagle Hotel/INEC in County Kerry at such a late stage in this long running process in my view. Cork Events Centre - sod turned by Fine Gael in 2016 - nothing built regarding this particular element of the project with the popular "Live at the Marquee" venue no longer available following the end of next Summer's concerts!

I think the whole Public/Private Partnership model has been fraught by serious problems over the years and tends to stall too many projects for such long periods. If a problem with a company arises that could result in a contractor going out of business it can result in long delays and possible a full re-tender process which will usually result in an upward adjustment in costs especially if a revised design enters the equation.

AwaitYourReply

tototoe wrote: »

Cork has got loads of money over the years. The hard done by thing is utter horse manure. Puc was given loads of money as one example, and it was a complete mess of a project...and the only thing its been full for is a soccer thing, even the 2 westlife shows are not sold out.

Cork gets its fair share, but to think giving 2 companies 50m when they put in 35m and have to repay nothing is a good use of public funding then its all the one.. for a bloody concert venue.

Re: Páirc Uí Chaoimh (PUC), Cork

The rise in cost from the originally projected €70m is put down to increased construction costs after a prolonged recession, the implementation of a sprinkler system, extra piling and the relocation of floodlights.

May 2014, the Government grants €30m for the regeneration project

November 2014, GAA confirms €20m contribution to the new Páirc Uí Chaoimh

LED floodlighting, extra terracing and improved turnstiles contributed to this latest cost excess.

The cost of laying a new pitch surface in 2019 is factored into the €95.8m estimate.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/revealed-cork-gaas-debt-for-pairc-ui-chaoimh-stands-at-30m-981052.html

Ryan expressed confidence that Cork GAA will be able to meet their obligations after revealing that the long-term debt figure for the Páirc Uí Chaoimh stadium project stands at approximately €20 million.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0211/1114608-tom-ryan-gaa/

This is a fine stadium and I've no doubt also that a Cork Events Centre, once built, will also be a magnificent asset to both Cork City and the wider region. One has to wonder whether or not the original figures quoted for such projects are deliberately conservative in order for the successful tender contractor to obtain the contract based on the figures.

flo8s967qjh0nd

tototoe wrote: »

Cork has got loads of money over the years. The hard done by thing is utter horse manure. Puc was given loads of money as one example, and it was a complete mess of a project...and the only thing its been full for is a soccer thing, even the 2 westlife shows are not sold out.

Ok, so PUC is one example. Any more?

Tomtom364

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

One has to wonder whether or not the original figures quoted for such projects are deliberately conservative in order for the successful tender contractor to obtain the contract based on the figures.

Don't be ridiculous contractors would never do that....

AwaitYourReply

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous contractors would never do that....

Well of course I was being polite

That said; things are not always straight forward where building is concerned and that's not helped when a project of this nature is to be undertaken in such an old part of the city with all it's Viking heritage. I would always be concerned when the cost of a project like this has increased before they have even commenced construction however; they have made multiple changes so that makes it a completely different project from the one originally envisaged which explains the cost differential.

I think our whole planning and contract tendering systems both at local and also at a national level is bonkers so while we could all question the contractor about certain aspects, other interests have also played their part in this long running saga. I feel sorry for any businesses trying to survive in the surrounding area while this project limps one step forward and three steps back every few months & years. Our political system is broken and this is just one of the many examples of failure.

Cork has waited such a long time for an Events Centre and I can recall the topic back in the mid '90's as it was thought it would be situated on Horgan's Quay.

Itssoeasy

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

Cork does NOT get it's fair share of funding due to a whole host of different factors some are local government while others are central government mismanagement.

Páirc Uí Chaoimh is expected to cost somewhere in the region €95.8m so; the overrun was said to be in the region of +€10m. The GAA and Cork County Board have not had HawkEye technology installed at Cork's main GAA venue. This lack of foresight will probably ensure that Croke Park H.Q. in Dublin & Semple Stadium in Thurles are favoured over Cork as Páirc Uí Chaoimh in the years to come which will do little to assist it paying back it's debts.

Croke Park received a series of government grants worth around €108m after proceeding with the rebuilding in 1993. Then Minister for Finance Bertie Ahern made an allocation of £5m (€6.3m) in the 1994 budget, followed in 1997 by his successor Charlie McCreevy’s allocation of £20m (€25.4m). The final cost to the GAA of the project in McKenna’s words “wouldn’t have been too far off €285m” of which the association had to find the balancing €177m.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/croke-park-now-debt-free-20-years-after-commencing-its-redevelopment-1.1678397

* Cork Airport cannot compete effectively with Dublin Airport as it's run by the Dublin Airport Authority which offers cheaper flights to/from Dublin. Even Kerry Regional Airport enjoys PSO subsidies for flights to/from Dublin but not Cork!
*M20 Cork to Limerick route - dangerous and long overdue - negative impact on regional development between the South & Mid-West & West interconnectivity.
*M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy route - dangerous & long overdue with Port of Cork about to exit Tivoli and open container terminal in Ringaskiddy and so many Pharma industry vehicles & employees using an already very heavily congested route which is set to get worse if the road is not upgraded by the time all the hauliers have switched from Tivoli to Ringaskiddy.
*N22 Cork to Macroom bypass only got the final go ahead to proceed in October, 2019 after many years of major bottlenecks negatively impacting the region
*Northern Ring Road to north of city - Never happened yet - chronic traffic
*No hospital on the northside of Cork City since North Infirmary was closed back in the 1980's
*No third level institution has a major campus presence on Cork City's northside
*Cork Institute of Technology still not awarded "University" status after years working towards it.
*Serious overcrowding at Cork University Hospital & Mercy Hospital
*South Doc out of hours/emergency GP service in major crisis for some time
*Dunkettle Interchange near Jack Lynch Tunnel long overdue a major upgrade
*South Ring Road at full capacity - multiple accidents almost daily
*No light rail/rapid transit system similar to LUAS in place in Cork City with all it's traffic congestion
* Cork is the Republic of Ireland's second largest city not to mention Ireland's largest county and it does NOT even have a 50 metres swimming pool for Olympic training although; Dublin had it's first one installed about 20 years ago.
* New Air Rescue Ambulance introduced for the region is already starved of funding and Cork has probably one of the longest coastlines of any county to protect and patrol - has to rely on charity & goodwill! *
Helipad at CUH (the South of Ireland's major Trauma centre) long gone but in recent years landing nearby on "other grounds" and awaits planning permission for set up on CUH grounds AFAIK.

Meanwhile in Dublin the new National Children's Hospital by St. James Hospital just overruns & overruns (I think BAM is the main contractor on the project) but this is ok as it's located in Dublin!

Rural Broadband cost overruns significantly probably because they ended up with just ONE Tender left in the race but that's ok because they are the "preferred bidder". You could not make this up but when you are left with only one firm then there is something wrong when you can only select the only one that did not pull out of the process! The whole thing will probably be obsolete by time it's fully rolled out!

New Ross Bypass opened on 30th January and the overall cost is expected to reach €230 million and may lead to a shift in trade from Port of Cork to Rosslare as it's closer to Dublin. Brittany Ferries recent announcement of the cancellation of it's Cork to Santander, Spain route to be replaced by a new Rosslare to Bilbao route as from 28th February along with the mid-week Roscoff sailing also using Rosslare is another blow for Cork following improvements to the national road network outside of Cork.

Cork City's boundary was finally extended in 2019 (last time the city boundary was extended was during the 1960's) which saw a significant population increase.

Important investments & infrastructure like a Cork Events Centre should not be allowed to be challenged by Gleneagle Hotel/INEC in County Kerry at such a late stage in this long running process in my view. Cork Events Centre - sod turned by Fine Gael in 2016 - nothing built regarding this particular element of the project with the popular "Live at the Marquee" venue no longer available following the end of next Summer's concerts!

I think the whole Public/Private Partnership model has been fraught by serious problems over the years and tends to stall too many projects for such long periods. If a problem with a company arises that could result in a contractor going out of business it can result in long delays and possible a full re-tender process which will usually result in an upward adjustment in costs especially if a revised design enters the equation.

Jesus when you see it all laid out in one place like this post it looks bad.

AwaitYourReply

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Jesus when you see it all laid out in one place like this post it looks bad.

We were told to "Keep The Recovery Going" by a certain political party in 2016 but many people did not feel it. The recent General Election results gave those political parties who are normally used to entering government their response that things are not satisfactory on many keys fronts.

Major problems in the following areas include:

Housing & Rental Crisis,
Health Crisis in hospitals,
State Pensions - Retirement Age Gap anomaly once people reach 65yrs
Insurance Crisis - award payouts in courts generally too high but nothing done so firms leaving certain markets putting Irish businesses & jobs at risk
Climate Change carbon emissions issue,
Public transport deficit,
Serious traffic congestion in our cities and other areas,
Public Service Broadcaster, RTÉ tv + radio in serious financial trouble for quite some time with major cutbacks looming
and many more...


Cork as Ireland's second largest city still has no dedicated centre for holding major events/conferences/trade exhibitions/concerts despite going through a whole process which seems to be never-ending. Why is a successful contract bidder permitted to keep changing from the original concept on which they were initially granted planning permission for in the first place. The process should be airtight regarding any subsequent changes requested by a successful bidder.

Much of Ireland's growth seems to be coming from Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) sector.

who_ru

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

Much of Ireland's growth seems to be coming from Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) sector.

the pharmaceutical and computer processors sectors accounted for almost 50% of irish exports in 2019 according to the CSO - all FDI and maybe employing 100,000 people.

100,000 people making 50% of all exports!

kub

The saga continues:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/legal-row-over-contract-for-cork-event-centre-submitted-to-commercial-court-982259.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Itssoeasy

kub wrote: »

The saga continues:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/legal-row-over-contract-for-cork-event-centre-submitted-to-commercial-court-982259.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

The INEC can piss off as far as I'm concerned.

donvito99

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

* Cork Airport cannot compete effectively with Dublin Airport as it's run by the Dublin Airport Authority which offers cheaper flights to/from Dublin. Even Kerry Regional Airport enjoys PSO subsidies for flights to/from Dublin but not Cork!

Can you please evidence this, seems like arse to me? What has the DAA got to do with the fares levied by airlines? What are the rates the DAA charge in Dublin versus Cork?

AFAIK the reason Kerry gets a PSO is because it's greater than 3hours to Dublin by rail and the EU prohibits a subvention for this reason. It's not some anti-Cork conspiracy.

thomil

donvito99 wrote: »

Can you please evidence this, seems like arse to me? What has the DAA got to do with the fares levied by airlines? What are the rates the DAA charge in Dublin versus Cork?

It is complete BS. Runway movement charges are about the same, and while new charges will come into effect at DUB from March 30th, they won't affect the balance too much, particularly in the summer.

What's more important is the parking and passenger charges. Cork Airport charges 32,70€ for 30 minutes for a widebody aircraft at a contact gate, and 26.20€ for a narrowbody aircraft at at contact gate. Dublin Airport charges 34,90 for a widebody at a contact gate and 27.90 for a narrowbody, however this is for fifteen minutes, half as long as at Cork Airport. Remote parking positions are free at Cork Airport, unlike at Dublin Airport, and the use of jetways costs 3.75€ per 15 minutes at Cork Airport, versus 7.35€ per 15 minutes at Dublin Airport.

Sources

Cork Airport Charges: https://www.corkairport.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/draft-2-cork-airport-tac-2018.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Dublin Airport Charges: https://www.dublinairport.com/docs/default-source/airport-charges/summary-table-of-dublin-airport-charges-2020.pdf?sfvrsn=20fb0c7d_2

donvito99

thomil wrote: »

It is complete BS. Runway movement charges are about the same, and while new charges will come into effect at DUB from March 30th, they won't affect the balance too much, particularly in the summer.

What's more important is the parking and passenger charges. Cork Airport charges 32,70€ for 30 minutes for a widebody aircraft at a contact gate, and 26.20€ for a narrowbody aircraft at at contact gate. Dublin Airport charges 34,90 for a widebody at a contact gate and 27.90 for a narrowbody, however this is for fifteen minutes, half as long as at Cork Airport. Remote parking positions are free at Cork Airport, unlike at Dublin Airport, and the use of jetways costs 3.75€ per 15 minutes at Cork Airport, versus 7.35€ per 15 minutes at Dublin Airport.

Sources

Cork Airport Charges: https://www.corkairport.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/draft-2-cork-airport-tac-2018.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Dublin Airport Charges: https://www.dublinairport.com/docs/default-source/airport-charges/summary-table-of-dublin-airport-charges-2020.pdf?sfvrsn=20fb0c7d_2

So the airlines set their fares, and the DAA charges more in Dublin than in Cork, and we're supposed to believe that the DAA is deliberately inhibiting growth in Cork?

And then there's this...

* New Air Rescue Ambulance introduced for the region is already starved of funding and Cork has probably one of the longest coastlines of any county to protect and patrol - has to rely on charity & goodwill!

The length of the coastline has nothing to do with the provision of a charity air ambulance service - the ONLY service of its type in the country. So we're supposed to view the fact that Cork has it's own air ambo as some slight on Cork?

robinbird

Itssoeasy wrote: »

The INEC can piss off as far as I'm concerned.

What they are arguing makes perfect sense. The events centre was put out to tender and after the contract was awarded they changed the rules. Used sharp practice to significantly increase the amount given to BAM. How many other tenders do you think there might have been if they had said in 2016 that there was 50 million in funding available? they will spend hundreds of thousands more defending BAM and end up losing anyway/

j8wk2feszrnpao

It’s been a massive cockup by the City Council; this is their project in their territory, and they have not have their house in order. The large amount of public money wasted to date is firmly on them.

As for Covney, if he didn’t have the clout to get this done when he was Tánaiste, he never will. Let’s call a spade a spade, when he said that people should wait, he was just lying.