Is the Western World anti-man?

NachoBusiness

Shenshen wrote: »

Seeing as it's effectively run by men (national leaders, owners/CEO of businesses and companies, military, you name it chances are its run by a man), you'd really have to wonder at male masochism to turn it all anti-man....

Ha.

All of which you speak has their strings pulled by lobby groups, with agendas, none more powerful lobby groups than women's lobby groups who have been influencing all facets of society when it comes to legislation for well over forty years. You couldn't have a more naive opinion on how society is run if you tired.

An as shining example of how what you suggest is bollox, lets look at some recent comments by UK Justice Minister, Simon Hughes:

UK Justice Minister Simon Hughes has recommended that the number of women serving prison terms should be reduced by half as most of them have been victims themselves, the BBC reported Thursday.

"Women are a special case for very good, evidenced reasons. Firstly, many more women who go to prison have themselves been victims. They've often been abused or in violent partnerships," Hughes said on air of BBC Radio 5.

He added that it was his belief that women tend to leave behind family responsibilities, unlike men.

Hughes stressed that he was primarily referring to women sentenced for non-violent crimes.

"There are some women who do terrible things and deserve to be locked up for a very long time. My concern is for those who are not a danger to society, who have become caught by a system which then does not help them out of it," Hughes said.

The western world is "run by men"? Yeah, of course it is.

0byme75341jo28

Kev W wrote: »

So fear of being attacked is paranoid? It's not like it doesn't happen.
Interesting assumption that the taxi driver is male.

I would consider that paranoia, yes.

Taxi drivers are predominantly male, and I'm certain a male taxi driver is what kylith was alluding to. I'm sure now you're going to attempt to discredit my argument by telling me I'm being sexist by making this presumption.

Potatoeman

Potatoeman wrote: »

It sounds like they need better friends. That's like a man judging every woman on that one wagon they know.

Actually they didn't make any judgement, it was all very matter of fact. I was actually far more appalled than them about what they were saying - which went from just being politely asked to some very intimidating situations. They were simply saying what they go through, they did not even use words like objectification or dirty little secrets. The terms...

Deleted User wrote: »

objectification, abuse, groping, and just the general way in which they are treated like meat and how many men, even married friends of mine, have tried it on with them, assuming they hardly have the self esteem to not want to be a dirty little secret, it's depressing...

...were entirely my characterisation of what happened, not theirs. In fact what was so awful was to see how they shrugged their shoulders and kinda said this is what being a woman is like, their lot was no worse than friends of theirs.

RWCNT

Wibbs wrote: »

The "1 in 4/3/5[insert makey uppy figure here] are raped" is nonsense, which makes "rape culture" in the West a hysterical nonsense with it.

Since victim blaming and rape-jokes clearly exist, how can you possibly deny the existence of rape culture?

Kev W

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed it does, at 30 the average childless Irish woman is earning more than the average 30 year old Irish man. Source That's before we get to the ever widening education gap, that if it was favouring men there would be ructions over it(rightfully) The "1 in 4/3/5[insert makey uppy figure here] are raped" is nonsense, which makes "rape culture" in the West a hysterical nonsense with it.

Why are you comparing statistics for childless women to statistics for men? I'm not disputing your numbers (though a source would be nice), it just feels like an odd discrepancy. If both groups are with or without children does that effect the statistics?
As for the vague statistics on rape you dismissed, do you have a source on which to base your dismissal? I can only assume that you're claiming that whatever the actual statistics are are incorrect. What do you base that on?

smash

RWCNT wrote: »

Since victim blaming and rape-jokes clearly exist, how can you possibly deny the existence of rape culture?

Murder jokes exist and Paedo jokes exist. Doesn't mean there's a murder culture or peado culture.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

Ever find yourself worrying that that taxi driver is going to attack you?

One of the friends I spoke to recently told me about an incident when getting a spin home from the local GAA star (no friend of mine, father of 3, local hero), who then collected 3 other fellows, who sat in, and then proceeded to drive her to a house despite her rising protests and eventual hysterics and begging to be let out. They only relented when she started trying to ring her own brother and they realised that there would be serious consequences, but up to then they thought it was normal. The fellows who landed into the car are well known in this area for pushing the envelope and a few young girls just can't seem to remember the parties they went to.

The scary thing, she thought it was her fault for getting into a car. And obviously could not go to the Gardai, because nothing actually happened beyond her getting a lift, and feeling a rising sense of panic as the situation dawned on her.

I have never heard of any man facing anything remotely similar.

hatrickpatrick

smash wrote: »

I was with you until this:



Don't be proud of your gender, be proud of your personal achievements.

I'd normally agree with this sentiment, however, I've been thinking for a while that this is something which needs to happen, at least for the moment. I'm a man, I'm a good person, and I'm f*cking proud of it, despite what all of those propaganda posters regarding violence and crime would have you assume about my character just because I'm male.

Kev W

Samuel Scary Urination wrote: »

I would consider that paranoia, yes.

Taxi drivers are predominantly male, and I'm certain a male taxi driver is what kylith was alluding to. I'm sure now you're going to attempt to discredit my argument by telling me I'm being sexist by making this presumption.

I was only mildly poking fun about your assumption. I know most taxi drivers are male.
However the fact that you can feel so safe in a male stranger's car that you can dismiss any feeling of unease in that situation as paranoia is an excellent example of male privelege.

B0jangles

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Ha. What absolute nonsense. All of which you speak have their strings pulled by lobby groups, with agendas, none more powerful lobby groups than women's lobby groups who have been influencing all facets of society when it comes to legislation for well over forty years. You couldn't have a more naive opinion on how society is run if you tired.

An as shining example of how what you suggest is bollox, lets look at some recent comments by UK Justice Minister, Simon Hughes:



The western world is "run by men"? Yeah, of course it is.

Hang on, if these feminist lobby groups are so pervasive and powerful, how come there are still ZERO woman-dominated governments / judiciaries / Police Forces / Multinationals?

(I'm not saying there should be BTW, personally I'm all for balance, but if Nacho's super-powerful feminist lobby groups exist then they are remarkably inefficient)

Fake edit: Apparently there are 2 countries globally where women make up more than 50% of the government - Bolivia and Rwanda.

As I always ask had anyone met an extreme feminist or even any average feminist in real life, has anyone been personally affected by a feminist agenda what laws in Ireland are anti men and have come about because of political lobbying by women.

The interned multiplies everything by a 10000.

One eyed Jack

Samuel Scary Urination wrote: »

No, and if you're that paranoid I'd suggest speaking to a therapist.

Are you worried the taxi driver will attack you because he's a male?

Now that's very unfair considering you started the thread because you think the Western world is anti-man, and it's exactly the sort of dismissive response that some men complain about when they try to talk about issues that they are affected and influenced by.

Would you call those men paranoid and suggest they speak to a therapist?

Are you afraid of being attacked by a woman at night, and that's why you take a taxi?

If you're not prepared to take someone else's issues seriously, then you have no right to complain when other people don't take your issues seriously.

I'm trying to take the issues you raise seriously, but you're not making it easy.

Iseedeadpixels

Rape crisis Centres....check
Common folk beating up a rapist.....check
Prison used mainly for sex offenders....check
A man can't legally be raped by a woman in Ireland check....

Definite rape culture right there :rolleyes:

RDM_83 again

Ha written a longer reply but lost it.
Anyway to those arguing that this is false can you give me a counter point?
Is there any statistical measure (so actually factual)where females under 30-35 are in a worse position males, excluding sexual harassment/assault?
Its pointless talking about men in their 40's-50's as they were not a product of the current environment.

Addition depression would be one but the vastly higher male suicide rates indicate s9mething else going on.

Skylinehead

Kev W wrote: »

Why are you comparing statistics for childless women to statistics for men? I'm not disputing your numbers (though a source would be nice)

Read again, there's a little link called "Source" in Wibbs post.

Kev W

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Rape crisis Centres....check
Common folk beating up a rapist.....check
Prison used mainly for sex offenders....check
A man can't legally be raped by a woman in Ireland check....

Definite rape culture right there :rolleyes:

I could be reading too much into your post but are you actually saying that the existence of rape crisis centres disproves rape culture? Because it seems kind of the opposite, if anything.

Iseedeadpixels

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Rape crisis Centres....check
Common folk beating up a rapist.....check
Prison used mainly for sex offenders....check
A man can't legally be raped by a woman in Ireland check....

Definite rape culture right there :rolleyes:

Men have use rape crisis centres as well why would you think its only women.

0byme75341jo28

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Now that's very unfair considering you started the thread because you think the Western world is anti-man, and it's exactly the sort of dismissive response that some men complain about when they try to talk about issues that they are affected and influenced by.

Would you call those men paranoid and suggest they speak to a therapist?

Are you afraid of being attacked by a woman at night, and that's why you take a taxi?

If you're not prepared to take someone else's issues seriously, then you have no right to complain when other people don't take your issues seriously.

I'm trying to take the issues you raise seriously, but you're not making it easy.

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make. If a man was afraid of sitting into a taxi on their own I'd consider them paranoid, don't know what the rest of your post is suggesting, perhaps that because I don't think it's unsafe for a woman to travel alone on a taxi that I've no right to question society's attitude towards men?

hatrickpatrick

mariaalice wrote: »

As I always ask had anyone met an extreme feminist or even any average feminist in real life, has anyone been personally affected by a feminist agenda what laws in Ireland are anti men and have come about because of political lobbying by women.

The interned multiplies everything by a 10000.

Friend of mine went through hell after being caught with his same-age 15 year old girlfriend. She got off scott free thanks to our "only boys can be aggressors law". Not a peep out of feminists, expect to insist that none of these scenarios matter and women are the only victims of sexism.

GarIT

Kev W wrote: »

So fear of being attacked is paranoid? It's not like it doesn't happen.
Interesting assumption that the taxi driver is male.

Not all fears are rational. You are much more likely to be killed by any of a dog, farm animal or coconut than you are to be killed by a spider, snake or shark but people still fear the latter.

Men are more likely to be randomly attacked than women. Why is fearing going going outside something men are 'privileged' by not having to deal with?

You are more likely to be killed in a kitchen accident, falling down stairs, or by under-cooked food than going outside.

You are 200 times more likely to die in a car crash than be murdered. You are over 1000 times more likely to be killed in a car crash than you are to be murdered by a random person outside. You are much more likely to be seriously injured every time you get into a car than you are to be attacked by a randomer when you go outside.

The chances of being attacked in a taxi are so low that you are more likely to win the lotto and be struck by lightning in your lifetime. (Unless you are the driver of the taxi as they are one of the most likely groups to be attacked). If you fear the taxi driver more than they fear you than there is something wrong there.

A fear of going outside is quite a serious issue and is something a therapist would really need to hear about it, so if anyone does have a fear of going outside you should talk to your doctor because there are people that can help you overcome this.

smash

Rape culture....

Can someone please explain to me how the fcuk you can relate the word 'culture' to rape, and accept it as a valid phrase, using a dictionary definition? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture

It's utter rubbish!

the_monkey

Pay gap ?

Let's take a look at pro tennis as an example (it may be a tiny % of the pop. but it's in the public view and sends out a message)

Women used to earn less than men and the PC feminist bs started and now they earn MORE.

I say more when others will say its the same, but it's actually more as they play best of 3 sets versus best of 5.

Best of 3 at a level GULFS below men, a really good amateur male could push a top 200 woman.

They want equal pay - sure but play best of 5.

But wait suggest that and you are a misogynistic pig - sure ladies wouldn't be able for the extra stress (or is that sexist?)

Iseedeadpixels

Kev W wrote: »

I could be reading too much into your post but are you actually saying that the existence of rape crisis centres disproves rape culture? Because it seems kind of the opposite, if anything.

Would you prefer we have none? The fact we have them shows we want to support rape victims and not "blame them" as some would say.

mariaalice wrote: »

Men have use rape crisis centres as well why would you think its only women.

Did I say that? I am trying to say there is no rape culture in Ireland.

smash

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Friend of mine went through hell after being caught with his same-age 15 year old girlfriend. She got off scott free thanks to our "only boys can be aggressors law". Not a peep out of feminists, expect to insist that none of these scenarios matter and women are the only victims of sexism.

Dont fall for the trap. She said "what laws in Ireland are anti men and have come about because of political lobbying by women". The law you mentioned is ludicrous but it didn't come about because of lobbying by women.

orubiru

Kev W wrote: »

Perhaps you see it that way because you don't recognise your privilege, seeing it as simply "the way things are"?
Many forms of privilege are the absence of things.

When was the last time you felt afraid to be outside alone at night, for example?

A fish doesn't know it's surrounded by water until you take it out.

Isn't the fact that we are all sitting here on the internet spending time on Boards instead of using that time to get food and water for our starving families an indication that we are all privileged?

OF COURSE privilege exists. However, these attempts at privilege classification are severely misguided and, I think, quite dishonest.

The goal seems to be shaming someone who is white or male or whatever into feeling that their opinion is somehow invalid because of some factor outwith their control.

Is it "male privilege" or "white privilege" or "hetero-normative privilege" that we were born into one of the safest and most prosperous periods in human history? A modest earner like myself lives better than the rulers of past civilizations. Clearly that is privilege. However, there are people of all races that live lives that I can only dream of. So that is also privilege.

If you are asking "what kind of privilege is it though" then my suspicion is that you are trying to make a specific group, most likely made up of many thousands of diverse individuals, look like the "privileged ones" so you can push forward some kind of narrative that makes that group look like the "Bad Guy".

When you ask "When was the last time you felt afraid to be outside alone at night, for example?" I don't really know what you are getting at?

Men are frequently assaulted when out alone. So are women. So are kids. So are all different types of people from all different backgrounds.

If we simplify it and say we have a group of 40 X People and 40 Y People. 10 of the Xs have been attacked when out alone at night. 5 of the Ys have been attacked when out alone at night.

So we have 15 people who have been attacked and 65 people who have not been attacked.

On one hand you seem to be saying that the Ys are privileged because statistically they are less likely to be attacked than the Xs. You are calling this a "Y Privilege".

You are completely ignoring the fact that the majority of the people have never been attacked. Ever. So what kind of privilege is that? Person Privilege?

I cannot possibly imagine how twisted up you must be to say that Men, some of whom may have been assaulted or raped, are privileged because it was less likely that they would have suffered that fate.

So if I get beaten up and my wallet taken (by "youths" of course) on my way home from work tonight does it mean that I have now lost my privilege?

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Friend of mine went through hell after being caught with his same-age 15 year old girlfriend. She got off scott free thanks to our "only boys can be aggressors law". Not a peep out of feminists, expect to insist that none of these scenarios matter and women are the only victims of sexism.

What happened, what are the laws that say only men can be aggressive? I think you will find very few people who say only women are the victims of sexism, men are often the victims of sexism as well.

hatrickpatrick

B0jangles wrote: »

Hang on, if these feminist lobby groups are so pervasive and powerful, how come there are still ZERO woman-dominated governments / judiciaries / Police Forces / Multinationals?

(I'm not saying there should be BTW, personally I'm all for balance, but if Nacho's super-powerful feminist lobby groups exist then they are remarkably inefficient)

Fake edit: Apparently there are 2 countries globally where women make up more than 50% of the government - Bolivia and Rwanda.

Why, in these arguments, is the gender of the lawmaker (which really shouldn't affect how well they do their job or what laws they pass) considered more important than the actual laws? Most Western governments are run by men, and yet they are passing laws which hurt men and benefit women. It was a majority male government which refused a couple of years ago to remove the outrageous sexism involved in statutory rape, it's male governments and male judges who f*ck fathers over in divorce court, it's male governments who insist that only penetration counts as rape, and not simply sexual intercourse without consent (gender neutral), it's male dominated governments who use the sexist phrase "violence against women".

So yes, the genders of the lawmakers are primarily male, and yet those laws are still primarily benefitting women at the moment at the expense of mens' rights.

Kev W

Skylinehead wrote: »

Read again, there's a little link called "Source" in Wibbs post.

So there is, apologies to Wibbs for overlooking that.

Having read the linked article, it actually seems to support the existence of the pay gap rather than refute it.

Paramite Pie

Samaris wrote: »

So, yeah, it's possible that half the squabbling comes from the fact that we just (most of us) can't live for long enough as the other gender to get a good idea of what the world feels like to one of them. Possibly.

When I was in college (and still in the closet) I turned down quite a few girls only to be met first with pleading & then verbal abuse (such as queer, ****** ect.. from girls who actually had gay-best-friends too!). Drink was involved but it doesn't sound much different than Connor74's post.

On nights out I was often faced with what could only be described as "interrogation" from disgruntled friends, which not only made me feel really bad, made me feel like I was being almost guilted into liking someone. But sure you know yourself, I was "only an arsehole anyways...":rolleyes:

Deleted User wrote: »

The worst are the many men who go from pleading to abuse when knocked back.

Also, girls (strangers) do occasionally grab my ass in nightclubs, and do get verbally abusive when my response is "i'm not interested". Sure I could just tell them I'm gay, but then they'll want to be my 'best friend' for the night, and I don't want to be a fashionable accessory either.

But we men never really talk about our problems. And when we do, some of those men try to claim we have it harder than women (we don't!) but then our entire experiences are dismissed because of that ludicrous claim. Men don't have it harder than women, but we don't necessarily have it easier than them either.

There's a strong element of patriarchy running through the backbone of modern feminism, where women are the eternal victims who always needing saving and men need to 'man up' cause no-one cares about 'male tears'.

NachoBusiness

orubiru wrote: »

Let's be honest here, the vast majority of women out there genuinely do want to have a good man in their lives. The majority of those women do already have a good man in their lives. They do not hate men. They do not hate masculinity.

I agree but these women you cite are not the women that in the main have been influencing education and legislation and it never was. It has always been feminist led lobby groups and women's rights groups that have pushed their agenda and spoke as if they were speaking for all women, and pretty much, thus far, they have gotten away with it. You always hear that the average women wouldn't support this and that but the facts are that whether they supported much of the negative effects third wave feminism has had on western society or not is all but irrelevant as it's happened and still happening:

We must stop indoctrinating boys in feminist ideology

In November last year, The Times reported on a programme in London Schools in which two American women, one a former sex crime prosecutor, “re-programme teenage boys’ sexual manners so they are fit for a feminist world”.

According to the report, they start the class by asserting that “misogyny is on the rise”, before going on to “describe real-life sex crimes that have happened to teenagers in this area with brutal accuracy”. The article concludes – approvingly -- that by the end of the session, the boys are “scarred for life”.

In context of the chasm between boys’ and girls’ educational attainment and a rising male suicide rate that is now nearly four times that of women’s, why are schools deciding that when it comes to talking about gender, what boys need most is an extra dose of guilt and shame?

The Great Men Value Women project, frames its mission as about helping young men, but it’s also driven by the belief that young men need to be re-educated as feminists – not just for their own good, but for women’s too. On the section of their website listing the organisation’s values, their final point simply states: “Feminism: This says it all”, with a link to a video of TED X talk entitled: “We Should All Be Feminists”.

Really? Who says so? Most importantly though, since when was it acceptable to impose ideology on school children? And for that matter, would we ever dare to suggest school girls ought to be taught that Great Women Value Men?

By all means, let’s teach children about healthy relationships, but that’s not really what these campaigns are about. Instead there is an overwhelming emphasis on imposing an ideological worldview that first and foremost sees young men as potential abusers and perpetrators, while routinely ignoring and minimising the very real threat of violence, both physical and sexual, that boys and young men face themselves.

You’d never know it from the rhetoric, but a man – and particularly a young man -- is around twice as likely to be a victim of violent crime as a woman.

And it’s not just drunken street violence either. A 2009 NSPCC report into domestic violence in teenage relationships, showed teenage boys suffer comparable rates of violence from their girlfriends as do teenage girls from their boyfriends.

In the same year another report, this time by Childline, found that of the children who called to report sexual abuse, a total of 8,457 were girls (64pc) and 4,780 were boys (36pc). The charity also found boys were more likely to say they had been sexually abused by a woman (1,722 cases) than by a man (1,651).

Imagine what it must it be like as a young man who has been beaten or sexually abused, possibly by a woman, to then be forced to attend a workshop that tells him that simply because he’s a young man, he should hang his head in shame as a potential abuser?

Neither are these activist interventions just the preserve of a few radical head teachers: they in fact reflect official government policy.