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Guinness Pro12 2015/2016 Season thread

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    #1292
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Only Edinburgh, Cardiff and Dragons will have nothing to play for next Saturday.

    If Edinburgh get 5 points, Munster get nothing and Ospreys lose, Edinburgh qualify in 6th, or if Ospreys win but Edinburgh's winning margin is 13 more then Ospreys they also get 6th.


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    #1293
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,243 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Zzippy wrote: »
    If Edinburgh get 5 points, Munster get nothing and Ospreys lose, Edinburgh qualify in 6th, or if Ospreys win but Edinburgh's winning margin is 13 more then Ospreys they also get 6th.

    Best case scenario for Munster is that ulster take an early commanding lead and at half time the scarlets find out that they have no hope of a playoff spot

    And the opposite is the worst case scenario


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    #1294
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Brewster wrote: »
    Ospreys are only 4 behind with a better points difference. If Ospreys get 5 points, I don't believe a point is enough. Am I correct? They would both have 12, same number of match wins buts Ospreys points difference is better. A bonus point is not enough for Munster. They need 2 points from game to be absolutely safe.

    Yup you are correct .
    If two or more Teams finish with the same number of league points, their placings will be determined by the following criteria in descending order:

    number of matches won;
    the difference between points for and points against;
    the number of tries scored;
    the most points scored;
    the difference between tries for and tries against;
    the fewest number of suspensions;
    the fewest number of yellow cards received;
    Toss of a coin.


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    #1295
    b.gud
    Registered Users Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭b.gud


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Yup you are correct .
    If two or more Teams finish with the same number of league points, their placings will be determined by the following criteria in descending order:

    number of matches won;
    the difference between points for and points against;
    the number of tries scored;
    the most points scored;
    the difference between tries for and tries against;
    the fewest number of suspensions;
    the fewest number of yellow cards received;
    Toss of a coin.

    Considering the likelihood of getting down as far as the toss of a coin I reckon they should add in a best mascot decider for the craic :pac:


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    #1296
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Well they should almost definitely have head to head wins in there somewhere before toss of a coin.


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    #1297
    b.gud
    Registered Users Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭b.gud


    Anyone know when they will release the tv schedule for the last round of games?


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    #1298
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    b.gud wrote: »
    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Yup you are correct .
    If two or more Teams finish with the same number of league points, their placings will be determined by the following criteria in descending order:

    number of matches won;
    the difference between points for and points against;
    the number of tries scored;
    the most points scored;
    the difference between tries for and tries against;
    the fewest number of suspensions;
    the fewest number of yellow cards received;
    Toss of a coin.

    Considering the likelihood of getting down as far as the toss of a coin I reckon they should add in a best mascot decider for the craic :pac:
    Eddie! Eddie! Eddie!


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    #1299
    Homesick Alien
    Registered Users Posts: 783 ✭✭✭Homesick Alien


    former total wrote: »
    So basically:

    Scarlets have qualified for Champions Cup and if they better Ulster's result next week, they get 4th.

    Ospreys need a win at home to Ulster and hope Munster lose at home to Scarlets.

    Munster cannot finish higher than sixth.

    Not true: Munster are 5 points behind Scarlets with an inferior points difference of 9 points. So if Munster get a bonus point win against Scarlets and beat them by a margin of 5 points or more then they'll finish in 5th.


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    #1300
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Homesick Alien wrote: »
    Not true: Munster are 5 points behind Scarlets with an inferior points difference of 9 points. So if Munster get a bonus point win against Scarlets and beat them by a margin of 5 points or more then they'll finish in 5th.

    It goes on games won not points difference so in that scenario Scarlets would finish in 5th with 14 wins ahead of Munster with 13 wins.


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    #1301
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,601 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Homesick Alien wrote: »
    Not true: Munster are 5 points behind Scarlets with an inferior points difference of 9 points. So if Munster get a bonus point win against Scarlets and beat them by a margin of 5 points or more then they'll finish in 5th.

    First tie breaker is match wins not points difference. Scarlets would have won an extra match.


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    #1302
    Homesick Alien
    Registered Users Posts: 783 ✭✭✭Homesick Alien


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    It goes on games won not points difference so in that scenario Scarlets would finish in 5th with 14 wins ahead of Munster with 13 wins.

    Ah ****e. There was me thinking I was all clever and stuff.


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    #1303
    b.gud
    Registered Users Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭b.gud


    How the pro12 would have been without the Italian teams
    https://twitter.com/292frosty/status/729270709357301760

    Pro12 team of the season
    https://twitter.com/PRO12rugby/status/729380830829641728


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    #1304
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Leinster 73 (+11)
    Connacht 73 (+23)
    Glasgow 72 (-3)
    Ulster 69 (-)
    Scarlets 63 (+6)
    Munster 63 (-12)
    Cardiff 56 (+21)
    Ospreys 55 (-19)
    Edinburgh 54 (+6)
    Dragons (-16)
    Zebre (+9)
    Treviso 20 (+1)


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    #1305
    vienne86
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭vienne86


    b.gud wrote: »
    How the pro12 would have been without the Italian teams
    https://twitter.com/292frosty/status/729270709357301760

    Pro12 team of the season
    https://twitter.com/PRO12rugby/status/729380830829641728

    Dominated by Connacht, and rightly so.


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    #1306
    b.gud
    Registered Users Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭b.gud


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Leinster 73 (+11)
    Connacht 73 (+23)
    Glasgow 72 (-3)
    Ulster 69 (-)
    Scarlets 63 (+6)
    Munster 63 (-12)
    Cardiff 56 (+21)
    Ospreys 55 (-19)
    Edinburgh 54 (+6)
    Dragons (-16)
    Zebre (+9)
    Treviso 20 (+1)

    Is that the season points difference between this season and last?


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    #1307
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    b.gud wrote: »
    Is that the season points difference between this season and last?

    Yes


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    #1308
    vienne86
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭vienne86


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Leinster 73 (+11)
    Connacht 73 (+23)
    Glasgow 72 (-3)
    Ulster 69 (-)
    Scarlets 63 (+6)
    Munster 63 (-12)
    Cardiff 56 (+21)
    Ospreys 55 (-19)
    Edinburgh 54 (+6)
    Dragons (-16)
    Zebre (+9)
    Treviso 20 (+1)

    Some fall by the Ospreys. And some climb by Cardiff. Delighted to see Zebre replace Treviso as the better Italian side - they have played some nice rugby, while Treviso have been poor - they were truly awful on Saturday.


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    #1309
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    vienne86 wrote: »
    Some fall by the Ospreys. And some climb by Cardiff. Delighted to see Zebre replace Treviso as the better Italian side - they have played some nice rugby, while Treviso have been poor - they were truly awful on Saturday.

    I am not happy to see Zebre there at all. They conceded 718 points in the league, that's 32.6 on average per game. They are going to get massacred in Europe, their seeding guarantees a tough pool, and I don't see how that benefits them rugby wise. They would be much better off in the Challenge Cup, finance aside, where they were competitive in the pool stages this season. It's time to scrap one team per country and make qualification for Europe Top 7/8.
    Cardiff got 32 more points and won 6 more games than Zebre in the league, they deserve the spot.


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    #1310
    Homesick Alien
    Registered Users Posts: 783 ✭✭✭Homesick Alien


    Neither Italian team is going to fare well in the Champions Cup but if I'd to choose between the two I'd give it to Zebre. They acquitted themselves well in the Challenge Cup this season - they just missed out on a QF spot - so they can rise to the occasion when necessary. Also put in a big performance against Dragons on the last day of the season when it really mattered.


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    #1311
    TheAlbert
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭TheAlbert


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Leinster 73 (+11)
    Connacht 73 (+23)
    Glasgow 72 (-3)
    Ulster 69 (-)
    Scarlets 63 (+6)
    Munster 63 (-12)
    Cardiff 56 (+21)
    Ospreys 55 (-19)
    Edinburgh 54 (+6)
    Dragons (-16)
    Zebre (+9)
    Treviso 20 (+1)

    There were 66 Losing Bonus Points this season, compared to 37 last season. Looks like the European qualification rules have lead to a more competitive league


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    #1312
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    TheAlbert wrote: »
    There were 66 Losing Bonus Points this season, compared to 37 last season. Looks like the European qualification rules have lead to a more competitive league

    It's very hard to use this season as a guideline for anything given the disruption from the RWC. The meritocracy has been very positive but this has been a poor season for the league as a whole as well. It'll be interesting to see how next season goes.


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    #1313
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    molloyjh wrote: »
    It's very hard to use this season as a guideline for anything given the disruption from the RWC. The meritocracy has been very positive but this has been a poor season for the league as a whole as well. It'll be interesting to see how next season goes.

    Why is it poorer than any previous seasons?

    The league is miles more competitive this year, for me that makes it an improved season.


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    #1314
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,439 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Bazzo wrote: »
    Why is it poorer than any previous seasons?

    The league is miles more competitive this year, for me that makes it an improved season.

    Is it more competitive because the poor teams have got better or the better teams have got worse?


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    #1315
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    awec wrote: »
    Is it more competitive because the poor teams have got better or the better teams have got worse?

    Probably both. Objectively there's no real way to confirm either way really but a league dominated by 4 or 5 much stronger teams is still a poorer league than one with 9 or 10 competitive teams in my book.

    That still doesn't answer my question though: why is it poorer than previously?


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    #1316
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,439 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Bazzo wrote: »
    Probably both. Objectively there's no real way to confirm either way really but a league dominated by 4 or 5 much stronger teams is still a poorer league than one with 9 or 10 competitive teams in my book.

    That still doesn't answer my question though: why is it poorer than previously?

    I think the league within itself has got better because teams are closer.

    Relative to other leagues though I think the standard has fallen.


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    #1317
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Bazzo wrote: »
    Probably both. Objectively there's no real way to confirm either way really but a league dominated by 4 or 5 much stronger teams is still a poorer league than one with 9 or 10 competitive teams in my book.

    That still doesn't answer my question though: why is it poorer than previously?

    Because the internationals have been available less due to the RWC, leading to poorer performances all round. It is more competitive certainly, and while that has its advantages it doesn't beat good rugby. Look at how poor the attendances have been for example. The product on show is far more important for stuff like that than the overall competitiveness of the league.

    The only side that you can look at and say they were consistently good all season is Connacht. Glasgow went on a fantastic run there since February, but prior to that were missing their internationals in a big way. Leinster were very mixed all season with a number of really poor performances and yet they still topped the table. Scarlets started well but fell away badly as the season wore on.

    How many really good games were there this season where we saw some really good rugby? Were Zebre so improved over last season that they got 60% more points as well as 3 TBPs compared to 2 last season? Or were the other sides just weaker? Surely that in itself is a negative, even if it increases competition?


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    #1318
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,183 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Bazzo wrote: »
    Probably both. Objectively there's no real way to confirm either way really but a league dominated by 4 or 5 much stronger teams is still a poorer league than one with 9 or 10 competitive teams in my book.

    That still doesn't answer my question though: why is it poorer than previously?

    I think as a piece of entertainment, it has improved owing to the European qualification rules now in place. Teams have something to play for nearly every game as opposed to a few years ago when sides realistically had nothing to play for by February.

    Overall the quality is definitely reducing though. The big names don't come to Pro12 teams any longer. Several of the top players have retired.

    The progress of Pro12 sides in Europe underlines the relative strength of the league now. Not a single team through in the Champions Cup and only Connacht who lost to one of the poorer T14 sides and the Dragons who did well to get through against Gloucester before being well beaten by Montpellier.


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    #1319
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    Edinburgh will move out of Murrayfield for the second half of next season.
    Moving to the Watsonians ground which is a 5 minute drive / 20 minute walk away. Bit of a nightmare to get too though but it should improve the atmosphere. The ground only has one stand but there's talk of temporary stands coming in on the other sides.

    Back to where the Reivers used to play.

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/rugby/168806/edinburgh-set-to-move-as-season-ends-in-another-disappointment/


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    #1320
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    I wouldn't take too much away from 1 season's performance in Europe, if the pro 12 teams are getting knocked out in the group stages every year for a few years then sure.

    As to the world cup arguement: well, it wasn't just the pro 12 missing players during the international window, everybody in the world was missing players during that window, so I don't see how that can be used as a stick to beat the pro 12 with. Similarly during the 6 nations every league will be missing players again, not just the pro 12. The remedy to that is to get in heaps of money and start buying lots of SH players, retired internationals or players just outside the inernational set up. It's the route the T14 and APL have gone down, is that really where you want the pro 12 to end up? I would absolutely hate for the league to start going down that route, I watch plenty of pro 12 matches and in my opinion at least there were lots of good games this year, and from a purely anecdotal point of view I've noticed more and more people taking interest in the pro 12 this year than ever before, people who wouldn't have ever given a flying **** about rugby at all up until now.

    Competitiveness within a league at the end of the day is what makes it entertaining, so for me, this year has been a success. I really couldn't care less if the T14 or APL are playing the better rugby(which if you ask me is subjective anyway) because I don't think either of those leagues are ones that we should be trying to model ourselves after.


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    #1321
    vienne86
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭vienne86


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I am not happy to see Zebre there at all. They conceded 718 points in the league, that's 32.6 on average per game. They are going to get massacred in Europe, their seeding guarantees a tough pool, and I don't see how that benefits them rugby wise. They would be much better off in the Challenge Cup, finance aside, where they were competitive in the pool stages this season. It's time to scrap one team per country and make qualification for Europe Top 7/8.
    Cardiff got 32 more points and won 6 more games than Zebre in the league, they deserve the spot.

    I don't actually think EITHER Italian side should be in the Champions cup, and yes, Cardiff would be far more deserving. This was the argument of the French and English in trying to axe the Heineken Cup which guaranteed 10 spots to the Pro12. But given that we are having an Italian team, I would prefer it to be Zebre.


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