Leaving Dogs outside all day

borderlinemeath

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

That was the owners. The dog was not socialized and neglected from lack of care love and interaction. Also if a dog is THAT panicky about food it usually means it is not fed on time. It's clear the husband was seen as 'pack'.

Why put the dog down simply because it growled if people touched his bucket? Or where there other issues?

I am not saying the dog was not dangerous. But I see a lot of problems with the way it was cared for from what you say.

You have MAKE dogs accept their place in the 'pack'. Particularly with kids.

It's a sad situation otherwise.

This is the biggest load of rubbish.

The dog was a resource guarder, plain and simple. It doesn't see a "place in a pack". Dominance and pack theory have long been disproven, even by David Mech who put forward the pack theory in the first place.

Dogs will guard things because they fear they will be taken away from them. Be it food, toys, a bed, they will even guard their favourite human. It's a fear, not viewing themselves as higher up the "pack"

It's actually very easily treatable but there's plenty of cowboy trainers that believe in all that dominance rubbish that go the wrong way about it.

LadyFenghuang

borderlinemeath wrote: »

This is the biggest load of rubbish.

The dog was a resource guarder, plain and simple. It doesn't see a "place in a pack". Dominance and pack theory have long been disproven, even by David Mech who put forward the pack theory in the first place.

Dogs will guard things because they fear they will be taken away from them. Be it food, toys, a bed, they will even guard their favourite human. It's a fear, not viewing themselves as higher up the "pack"

It's actually very easily treatable but there's plenty of cowboy trainers that believe in all that dominance rubbish that go the wrong way about it.

I was not referring to dominance per say. 'Pack' is more about co-operation. But even in that way dogs do need to learn to obey. It is fear yes. But also inherent character sometimes. Or lack of interaction with others.

Animals do need to know who is boss sometimes. Even gently.

damon5

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Actually if you go back to veterinarians when they are studying, the majority of the vet studies are sponsored by the likes of Hills. Dog food is a big business and where better to indoctrine the student vets than in college. It's a multi million euro industry and because vets are the "professionals" consumers will trust their judgement when it comes to what to feed their dog.

The majority of dogs that attend vets with skin or intestinal complaints are routinely put on a course of steroids to suppress the symptoms of the dog and they are recommended to go on X or Y food, that the surgery just happens to sell. The symptoms disappear for a while so of course the dog owner is convinced it's the food, but it's the steroids suppressing the symptoms, but not treating the actual problem. The majority of dogs are gluten or wheat intolerant yet pretty much all the foods available in a vets surgery contain wheat or gluten or some type of grain.

The pet business is a marketers dream. For years we have been told to eat fresh foods and avoid processed foods, get enough protein, carbs and vitamins and minerals, yet somehow we've been hoodwinked to think it's perfectly ok to feed nothing but a processed diet to our pets.

Exactly,in a nut shell ....

borderlinemeath

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

I was not referring to dominance per say. 'Pack' is more about co-operation. But even in that way dogs do need to learn to obey. It is fear yes. But also inherent character sometimes. Or lack of interaction with others.

Animals do need to know who is boss sometimes. Even gently.

Actually resource guarding goes back to the breeder, if they feed from communal bowls there will always be a couple of pups who miss out and have to develop aggressive behaviours in order to get their fair share. This in turn leads to them behaving the same around humans and food, or other dogs and food, and because the behaviour works with food, it works with other valuable items as well.

It's not about the dog needing to know who is boss, it's about the dog being comfortable enough not to have to resort to aggressive tendencies. The best way to treat resource guarding of food is to increase supply, to have the dog associate that the hand coming towards the bowl is actually putting more food into it, but the person who thinks they need to show the dog "who's boss" will more than likely take the food away.

LadyFenghuang

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Actually resource guarding goes back to the breeder, if they feed from communal bowls there will always be a couple of pups who miss out and have to develop aggressive behaviours in order to get their fair share. This in turn leads to them behaving the same around humans and food, or other dogs and food, and because the behaviour works with food, it works with other valuable items as well.

It's not about the dog needing to know who is boss, it's about the dog being comfortable enough not to have to resort to aggressive tendencies. The best way to treat resource guarding of food is to increase supply, to have the dog associate that the hand coming towards the bowl is actually putting more food into it, but the person who thinks they need to show the dog "who's boss" will more than likely take the food away.

That's a good point what you say about breeders actually. They try and do this in animals shelters too. When you see dogs actually leaving a little dry food in the bowl that's a good things. It can be done without overfeeding.

Getting it right from the start is key though.

LadyFenghuang

I do think different breeds are different though. And environment is key too.

InTheTrees

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

even if the dog(s) continuously bark throughout the day (and sometimes into the night!)

Remember if a barking dog is causing a nuisance it can be reported. It may not be cruelty but its still a nuisance.

lulu1

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

That was the owners. The dog was not socialized and neglected from lack of care love and interaction. Also if a dog is THAT panicky about food it usually means it is not fed on time. It's clear the husband was seen as 'pack'.

Why put the dog down simply because it growled if people touched his bucket? Or where there other issues?

I am not saying the dog was not dangerous. But I see a lot of problems with the way it was cared for from what you say.

You have MAKE dogs accept their place in the 'pack'. Particularly with kids.

It's a sad situation otherwise.

No it had nothing to do with the owners they were well used to handling dogs.. The dog was ruling the roost and at the end up the wife and kids were afraid of it. It was not his bucket it was the turf bucket They couldnt even put turf in the fire for god's sake. This dog was dangerous and the family were not prepared to give their problem to anyone else.

LadyFenghuang

lulu1 wrote: »

No it had nothing to do with the owners they were well used to handling dogs.. The dog was ruling the roost and at the end up the wife and kids were afraid of it. It was not his bucket it was the turf bucket They couldnt even put turf in the fire for god's sake. This dog was dangerous and the family were not prepared to give their problem to anyone else.

I can't comment then but only accept your account. There are some individual dogs that are difficult. The motto there are not bad breeds but bad dogs. And usually bad dogs are the result of bad handling early on or overtime.

If you say it was not the case this time though I accept that can happen. Tragic though. Very sad.

Discodog

Leaving a dog outside, on it's own & barking all day is cruelty & neglect. The new Animal Welfare Act makes it an offence to not provide for the needs of the animal. These include human interaction, company etc.

There are countless reasons why a dog shouldn't be left outside & the issue has been discussed here before. Most rescues won't allow you to rehome a dog unless you keep it indoors.

Unfortunately Ireland is still many years behind regarding animal welfare & education.

LadyFenghuang

Discodog wrote: »

Leaving a dog outside, on it's own & barking all day is cruelty & neglect. The new Animal Welfare Act makes it an offence to not provide for the needs of the animal. These include human interaction, company etc.

There are countless reasons why a dog shouldn't be left outside & the issue has been discussed here before. Most rescues won't allow you to rehome a dog unless you keep it indoors.

Unfortunately Ireland is still many years behind regarding animal welfare & education.

Awh we won't leave you outside! :P

borderlinemeath

lulu1 wrote: »

No it had nothing to do with the owners they were well used to handling dogs.. The dog was ruling the roost and at the end up the wife and kids were afraid of it. It was not his bucket it was the turf bucket They couldnt even put turf in the fire for god's sake. This dog was dangerous and the family were not prepared to give their problem to anyone else.

The obvious solution would have been to crate train the dog, change the bucket to something different and to stop throwing unattainable food scraps into it. The key about changing behaviours is changing the association that the dog has with the particular thing, ie the bucket - to him it was a food source, so remove it or remove the dogs accessibility to it. Crate training a food aggressive dog makes mealtimes easier for everybody, the dog and the family.

wolfpawnat

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Actually if you go back to veterinarians when they are studying, the majority of the vet studies are sponsored by the likes of Hills. Dog food is a big business and where better to indoctrine the student vets than in college. It's a multi million euro industry and because vets are the "professionals" consumers will trust their judgement when it comes to what to feed their dog.

The majority of dogs that attend vets with skin or intestinal complaints are routinely put on a course of steroids to suppress the symptoms of the dog and they are recommended to go on X or Y food, that the surgery just happens to sell. The symptoms disappear for a while so of course the dog owner is convinced it's the food, but it's the steroids suppressing the symptoms, but not treating the actual problem. The majority of dogs are gluten or wheat intolerant yet pretty much all the foods available in a vets surgery contain wheat or gluten or some type of grain.

The pet business is a marketers dream. For years we have been told to eat fresh foods and avoid processed foods, get enough protein, carbs and vitamins and minerals, yet somehow we've been hoodwinked to think it's perfectly ok to feed nothing but a processed diet to our pets.

Actually there was a seminar held in the college last year recommending not to use brand name stuff based solely on the fact older vets have it in their practises, as it is there they are getting the push, not the college. A lot of vets are solely in it for the money (same as many professions) the colleges teach the students that it is all about getting the right nutrients and percentages. After they graduate is where the issues start.

But back to the general thread. I have a rottweiler and a toddler, not a good mix. not because of the breed, but because of his size, I cannot have him in during the day as he accidentally knocks the toddler, it just doesn't work, plus it is impossible to clean if he is laying down where I am about to sweep/wash the floor. He does come in while she naps, but overall, he is outside during the day.

He gets two walks a day, and 3 10km runs a week so he is well exercised. I have a huge garden and he has different toys and spots to relax in. That is what matters really, socialisation and stimulation. But he is out by night, Rotties are sweeties, but not made to live inside 24/7. I don't agree with most breeds being inside all day when there is no one there. Vets have noticed an increase in bladder and kidney issues in recent years because dogs are not getting the relief of the bathroom. At night they go without the bathroom, because like us, they are asleep, but also like us, when they are awake, they need to go more. In hot weather houses can get too warm and they need to remain hydrated, more water means more pressure on the bladder.

Now that all said, my guy is in from 8pm to bed time, and in the winter he will sleep in the back kitchen on cold nights, but overall, he is outdoors.

Discodog

lulu1 wrote: »

No it had nothing to do with the owners they were well used to handling dogs..

This is often the root cause of so many problems. I know a man who will tell you that he has had dogs for all his life & that he is an expert. He keeps both of his dogs on a 6ft chain 24/7.

I know someone who says that they love cats so much that they won't neuter them.

Discodog

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I don't agree with most breeds being inside all day when there is no one there. Vets have noticed an increase in bladder and kidney issues in recent years because dogs are not getting the relief of the bathroom.

I find that to be rather strange seeing as dogs have been kept indoors for decades. The kidney issues are more likely because of the increase in the use of dried foods & dogs not being given sufficient water.

maggiepip

Discodog wrote: »

This is often the root cause of so many problems. I know a man who will tell you that he has had dogs for all his life & that he is an expert. He keeps both of his dogs on a 6ft chain 24/7.

I know someone who says that they love cats so much that they won't neuter them.

Exactly, it's so often the ones who boast they've had dogs all their lives who know nothing.

wolfpawnat

Discodog wrote: »

I find that to be rather strange seeing as dogs have been kept indoors for decades. The kidney issues are more likely because of the increase in the use of dried foods & dogs not being given sufficient water.

Actually in Ireland, dogs have only really become a full-time indoor creature in recent years. It has been noted in UCD Vet Medicine that it is most common in smaller house dogs through taking histories and also in regards to the length of people's working days. Yes, people misjudge water intake, I today had to fill my dogs 2 waterbowls six times and he drank water from the river on both our walks, so had I left him all day, he would have been dehydrated, but the evidence points in many cases to not getting out the bathroom. Think about it, can you hold in pee for 10 hours when awake? I know no one who can, it affects them, just as it does us.

Plus what is the mental stimulation when inside all day, my guy spends a lot of time chasing flies, looking at birds and trying to harass the cat?

Andy From Sligo

lulu1 wrote: »

No it had nothing to do with the owners they were well used to handling dogs.. The dog was ruling the roost and at the end up the wife and kids were afraid of it. It was not his bucket it was the turf bucket They couldnt even put turf in the fire for god's sake. This dog was dangerous and the family were not prepared to give their problem to anyone else.

Jack Russell isnt it? - we have a JR with a bad temperament, snarls sometimes if you even go near him and especially if he thinks your going to take something away from him, luckily no young children we have in the house, has bit me a couple of times on the hand even when playing/mucking around. he is a rescued dog - very territorial JR dogs would never dream of putting him down for it

wolfpawnat

maggiepip wrote: »

Exactly, it's so often the ones who boast they've had dogs all their lives who know nothing.

Definitely, the amount of "expert advice" you get is unreal. I have been told 5 different ways to keep my dog, all completely conflicting and none with any sort of medical standing, in fact it does against vet recommendations. And when you state the OH is a vet, sure what would a vet know that they wouldn't, they had dogs all their lives!!!!

I had one man tell me to not feel a dog on Sundays to give his stomach a rest. I'd love to see him go without food for a day! :rolleyes:

Andy From Sligo

InTheTrees wrote: »

Remember if a barking dog is causing a nuisance it can be reported. It may not be cruelty but its still a nuisance.

who do you report to ie which authorities? - will Gardai bother even get involved? or would they just put you in touch with ISPCA ? - i might try one day and see how i get on but i dont hold much hope

Discodog

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Plus what is the mental stimulation when inside all day, my guy spends a lot of time chasing flies, looking at birds and trying to harass the cat?

The problem is that dogs also get stressed from hearing other dogs barking. What would happen if your dog went for a bee rather than a fly & got stung in the throat?

My two get a good off lead walk before I leave them. Dogs need to be taught how to chill & mine show no signs of stress or anxiety - I set up a webcam.

There are just too many risks & lack of control in leaving a dog outdoors.

Discodog

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

who do you report to ie which authorities? - will Gardai bother even get involved? or would they just put you in touch with ISPCA ? - i might try one day and see how i get on but i dont hold much hope

Report the noise nuisance to your local Council. Keep a log of when the dog is barking.

InTheTrees

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

who do you report to ie which authorities? - will Gardai bother even get involved? or would they just put you in touch with ISPCA ? - i might try one day and see how i get on but i dont hold much hope

I know. Not easy. But a "Nuisance" is a civil issue.

"Section 25 of the Control of Dogs Act 1986 deals with nuisance by barking dogs. If you don’t get a satisfactory response from the dog owner, you may complain to the District Court, using the form prescribed under the Control of Dogs Act. These forms are available from local authorities.
The court may make an order requiring the occupier of the premises in which the dog is kept to abate the nuisance by exercising due control over a dog. The court may limit the number of dogs that can be kept on a premises or may direct that a dog be delivered to a dog warden to be dealt with as unwanted."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html

A little unconnected, however the laws in the USA and Ireland are very similar:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattle-family-may-lose-house-over-barking-dog-291344661.html

wolfpawnat

Discodog wrote: »

The problem is that dogs also get stressed from hearing other dogs barking. What would happen if your dog went for a bee rather than a fly & got stung in the throat?

My two get a good off lead walk before I leave them. Dogs need to be taught how to chill & mine show no signs of stress or anxiety - I set up a webcam.

There are just too many risks & lack of control in leaving a dog outdoors.

What if he eats a rock? What if he chews on some furniture and chokes on wood? What if is sort of a cop out really. He needs space, my house is big but is not good enough, I have 2 young kids, one eats raisins, if he gets at them, health issues. If he eats their toys, obstructions.

I find my dog lacks stimulation indoors, a rottweiler needs space by the fact they are big. He has a tree he chills under, he can see the road through a high locked gate, the rest of the garden has a 8 foot wall He loves being in when we are home, but if not, he goes insane chewing at everything and getting anxious.

Each dog is different and that needs to be taken into account, but overall dogs are happy outside as long as they are cared for in all aspects. Obviously I would never recommend leaving a hairless chinese crested outside, but most breeds are hardy enough to live while you are gone to work in most reasonable weathers with proper shelter, exercise and stimulation.

Discodog

wolfpawnat wrote: »

What if he eats a rock? What if he chews on some furniture and chokes on wood? What if is sort of a cop out really. He needs space, my house is big but is not good enough, I have 2 young kids, one eats raisins, if he gets at them, health issues. If he eats their toys, obstructions.

I find my dog lacks stimulation indoors, a rottweiler needs space by the fact they are big. He has a tree he chills under, he can see the road through a high locked gate, the rest of the garden has a 8 foot wall He loves being in when we are home, but if not, he goes insane chewing at everything and getting anxious.

Each dog is different and that needs to be taken into account, but overall dogs are happy outside as long as they are cared for in all aspects. Obviously I would never recommend leaving a hairless chinese crested outside, but most breeds are hardy enough to live while you are gone to work in most reasonable weathers with proper shelter, exercise and stimulation.

I cannot agree that overall dogs are happier outside. I can understand your situation but are you making a general statement to back up your personal decision?

AFAIK every welfare organisation here & in the UK would disagree with you. There are countless examples of problems with leaving a dog outside. Escape, theft, injury, death or injury to visiting cats, barking, taunting by kids etc, etc etc.

By the way big dogs don't need space. If a dog is well walked before being left it will sleep most of the day. I spent several months with two big dogs in a camper van.

wolfpawnat

Discodog wrote: »

I cannot agree that overall dogs are happier outside. I can understand your situation but are you making a general statement to back up your personal decision?

AFAIK every welfare organisation here & in the UK would disagree with you. There are countless examples of problems with leaving a dog outside. Escape, theft, injury, death or injury to visiting cats, barking, taunting by kids etc, etc etc.

The issue with a lot of welfare charities from my experience as well as the experience of personal friends and my partner and his fellow vets, is that many of them are not really living in reality. Many of them expect over and beyond to the extent of not really realistically thinking of the animal as what it is, an animal.

You cite fantastic reasons as to why people should consider what they should do with their pets during the day. Escape, theft and taunting are very common issues, and for many it is something they have had to deal with. I am lucky, as I stated, large locked gate, high walls and my homes location as well as my dog weighing a hefty 50kg at 8months means these are not an issue for me personally, a cocker spaniel owner does not have the same luxuries. One could argue though that correct fencing and precautions would minimise these risks. (just playing devils advocate here).

As for cats, I have found they do more to harm dogs than the other way around, I know my one is the bane of every dog in the neighbourhood's existence, especially my dog. I am ashamed to say, my tabby rules over a rottweiler, devil breed indeed! But yes, a fair issue, and cats cause dogs to bark, which cause nuisance issues, that is a fair argument.

Death and injury can occur anywhere though. I mean all it takes is one stray toy or a dish cloth with some porridge stuck on it from a morning clean up, and there is a €800 surgery most cannot afford. That said, I spent 3 days ridding my garden of litter from the last tenant that included sea shells, metal bottle caps, and chicken bones. So it becomes a balance of risks really.

As for theft, with break-ins rampant around the country, stealing a dog from inside the home is not too much of a step up these days than from outside, though obviously, for most, the latter is easier.

Everyone can only give their own opinion as to what they think is right, but from my experiences personally, if the dog has everything it needs outside, then that is a perfectly suitable place to keep them.

Discodog

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The issue with a lot of welfare charities from my experience as well as the experience of personal friends and my partner and his fellow vets, is that many of them are not really living in reality. Many of them expect over and beyond to the extent of not really realistically thinking of the animal as what it is, an animal.

They live in the reality of having to pick up the pieces left from neglect, trying to repair the damage & then finding good homes. I would hope that they are very choosy about who they rehome to.

Some animal charities have to also try to prosecute cruelty cases where the local Vet refuses to testify because he doesn't want to get a "bad reputation".

Meanwhile, because of pet insurance, the cost of veterinary care is increasing whilst the rescues incomes are falling.

I take a very dim view of Vets criticising rescues. The rescues help as volunteers & not as a commercial business.

Swanley

Leaving Dogs outside all day;
Leaving Dogs outside - all day;
Leaving Dogs, outside; All day!
Leaving Dogs;
Outside;
All day.

Goat Paddock

Dog flap on back door is an idea. Can always close it or close off rest of house assuming it leads into a utility room.

wolfpawnat

Discodog wrote: »

They live in the reality of having to pick up the pieces left from neglect, trying to repair the damage & then finding good homes. I would hope that they are very choosy about who they rehome to.

Some animal charities have to also try to prosecute cruelty cases where the local Vet refuses to testify because he doesn't want to get a "bad reputation".

Meanwhile, because of pet insurance, the cost of veterinary care is increasing whilst the rescues incomes are falling.

I take a very dim view of Vets criticising rescues. The rescues help as volunteers & not as a commercial business.

My personal experience of rescues has caused me to come to the conclusion that some are nothing short of excuses for animal hoarding, not really wanted to rehome, but to have people fund their obsession. That said, I agree there needs to be a thorough selection process, but within reason. I had one friend have a rescue state they did not want her to get a dog because she had a back yard and were not convinced she would not keep it out there. Luckily she found a rescue with a sense of cop on and has a lovely little guy now that does not see the yard only for when she is doing laundry.

But that is OT, so back on track.

Dogs, so long as they have all their needs met can survive perfectly happy outside in most Irish weather. We do not have a ridiculously varied climate, most of the year is warm enough (though it does not always feel like it as we are so used to it) but generally it's fine. Obviously those with less fur and the vast majority of toy breeds are not as sturdy as a Labrador, German Shepard and a Jack Russell, so they need extra consideration, but overall, in my own opinion, which like everyone elses, is simply an opinion, most dogs are fine outside and contrary to some arguments, it is not an act of cruelty to simply have them outside during the day once they are properly cared for.