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What would you like the next referendum to legalise abortion or euthanasia?

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    #152
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    folamh wrote: »
    Then you ought oppose contraception and male masturbation. Synaptic connections necessary to support consciousness emerge at twenty weeks. An early abortion doesn't kill anyone. Early fetuses aren't even individuals, much less persons.

    Life, in my opinion, begins at fertilsation. It may look like a blob under a microscope, but that's how everyone of us started out.


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    #153
    thee glitz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Sydney Chilly Magnate wrote: »
    Would you not prosecute someone who brought a six year old to UK and murdered them? If not, why not. What's the difference if abortion is murder?
    What would be wrong with mandatory pregnancy tests for any woman of childbearing age leaving the country, especially going to Manchester/Liverpool?

    I'd hope the UK authorities would investigate and prosecute that.

    Would you want to see someone prosecuted for bringing a 6yr old to England? I guess it depends on whether they have the right to do so.


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    #154
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.
    You only need to look at the amount of women ordering pills online, some from dodgy websites, and taking them unsupervised to understand that it must be a thing. It's only a matter of time until a woman is plastered across the news because she died taking an abortion pill without medical supervision.

    As for actual backstreet abortions, think about groups like refugees and asylum seekers who are not allowed to leave the country to go to England. It has to exist.


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    #155
    folamh
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Life, in my opinion, begins at fertilsation. It may look like a blob under a microscope, but that's how everyone of us started out.

    On what grounds do you think that 1) life begins at fertilization and 2) that condition is sufficient to de-legitimize abortion?


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    #156
    cloud493
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭cloud493


    I think its ridiculous in a 'modern' country in 2015, a woman doesn't have control over her own womb and medical procedures, she has to go to England for it. Abortion isn't murder.


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    #157
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    thee glitz wrote: »
    I'd hope the UK authorities would investigate and prosecute that.

    Would you want to see someone prosecuted for bringing a 6yr old to England? I guess it depends on whether they have the right to do so.

    So if an Irish woman brought her 6 year old child to England, killed the child, and returned here, you'd think "well that's a matter for England to deal with"?

    If you really and truly literally believe that abortion is murder, why would you not want to stop women travelling to get one?


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    #158
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Life, in my opinion, begins at fertilsation. It may look like a blob under a microscope, but that's how everyone of us started out.

    So how to you feel about all those embryos being destroyed in Irish fertility clinics?


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    #159
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Life, in my opinion, begins at fertilsation. It may look like a blob under a microscope, but that's how everyone of us started out.
    So do you think that the fertilised eggs left over from IVF treatments are children that have been murdered?


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    #160
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,114 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Now whose nitpicking!

    Mine! But not really nitpicking.


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    #161
    Kells1
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Kells1


    "]So do you think that the fertilised eggs left over from IVF treatments are children that have been murdered?[/quote]

    Yes.
    What are foetuses if they are not people.every single one of us started life as a foetus.


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    #162
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Kells1 wrote: »
    "]So do you think that the fertilised eggs left over from IVF treatments are children that have been murdered?

    Yes.
    What are foetuses if they are not people.every single one of us started life as a foetus.[/QUOTE]

    So why aren't you outraged this murder is happening here in your own country? Why aren't you trying to have it banned? Why is it that the hate and vitriol is always reserved for women who have abortions, often as a result of difficult situations and not couples who do IVF? I guess a vulnerable women is an easier target to bully


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    #163
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I can't think of anything more civilised than giving a voice to children not yet born.

    If we're being all-inclusive why stop there? I vote we give a voice to the not-yet-conceived as well.

    And what about the unfortunately-deceased? Why should they lose out? Though come to think of it, Sinn Fein have been ahead of their time there, I tell you!


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    #164
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    folamh wrote: »
    On what grounds do you think that 1) life begins at fertilization and 2) that condition is sufficient to de-legitimize abortion?

    1. It's my belief, grounded in science and religion.
    2. The unborn have an equal right to life.


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    #165
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    We cannot define life as beginning at fertilisation unless we want to ban the use of IVF. We would have to afford full rights to embryos in a petri-dish, or waiting in a freezer to be used. And we don't.


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    #166
    Kells1
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Kells1


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Yes.
    What are foetuses if they are not people.every single one of us started life as a foetus.

    So why aren't you outraged this murder is happening here in your own country?
    I am truly dissapointed
    Why is it that the hate and vitriol is always reserved for women who have abortions, often as a result of difficult situations and not couples who do IVF? I guess a vulnerable women is an easier target to bully[/quote]
    I have no hatred towards women who have abortions only compassion


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    #167
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    Kells1 wrote: »
    I have no hatred towards women who have abortions only compassion

    Just not enough compassion to let them have an abortion in their own country, for a more affordable price, surrounded by their support network.


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    #168
    Eutow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    1. It's my belief, grounded in science and religion.
    2. The unborn have an equal right to life.



    They don't, even in Ireland. It is also impossible to grant equal rights to both.


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    #169
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    We cannot define life as beginning at fertilisation unless we want to ban the use of IVF. We would have to afford full rights to embryos in a petri-dish, or waiting in a freezer to be used. And we don't.

    There's a simple reason for that of course. Money and power. The true values of the pro-life movement in Ireland.

    Women wanting abortions tend to be vulnerable and easy to bully. IVF clinics have clout and won't be ordered around.


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    #170
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    Kells1 wrote: »
    What are foetuses if they are not people.
    They are potential people.

    The thing is, people recoil when you speak frankly about early-stage pregnancy because it makes you sound like a grinch. Like, if a woman who is 3/4 weeks pregnant comes up to you and gushes about how she sang to her baby last night and how in love she is with her baby, you'd want to be a real asshole to say "well, your baby can't hear you because it doesn't have ears, a body, a heartbeat, a brain or brainwaves". It makes people happy to project their future hopes and dreams for their child onto what, realistically, is still merely the potential for human life.

    It's human instinct and that's fine. But what is not fine is making it so that this foetus, this one-day person all going well, has the same rights as the fully-grown woman carrying it.


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    #171
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    volchitsa wrote: »
    If we're being all-inclusive why stop there? I vote we give a voice to the not-yet-conceived as well.

    And what about the unfortunately-deceased? Why should they lose out? Though come to think of it, Sinn Fein have been ahead of their time there, I tell you!

    President McAleese campaigned for a Yes vote last week for unborn children, so they had a right to live as equals in the future. How about they have a right to live full stop.


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    #172
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    President McAleese campaigned for a Yes vote last week for unborn children, so they had a right to live as equals in the future. How about they have a right to live full stop.

    I don't think she meant fetuses, did she? She also meant the unconceived, as I said. Which would make male masturbation murder on an unimaginable scale, by your lights. I hope you don't indulge in it yourself!


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    #173
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I don't think she meant fetuses, did she? She also meant the unconceived, as I said. Which would make male masturbation murder on an unimaginable scale, by your lights. I hope you don't indulge in it yourself!

    I reckon I would be somewhere between Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin on that scale.


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    #174
    valoren
    Registered Users Posts: 5,458 ✭✭✭valoren


    Once you breathe independently for me that's when you are a person and cease to be a fetus.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_to_extrauterine_life


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    #175
    thee glitz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    FouxDaFaFa wrote: »
    You only need to look at the amount of women ordering pills online, some from dodgy websites, and taking them unsupervised to understand that it must be a thing. It's only a matter of time until a woman is plastered across the news because she died taking an abortion pill without medical supervision.

    I haven't seen that in the news yet, hope I don't. It's an outrageous thing to do.
    As for actual backstreet abortions, think about groups like refugees and asylum seekers who are not allowed to leave the country to go to England. It has to exist.

    I thought asylum seekers loved having kids here. They should be allowed travel to England if they wish, off they go. Still sad though.


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    #176
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    thee glitz wrote: »
    I haven't seen that in the news yet, hope I don't. It's an outrageous thing to do.



    I thought asylum seekers loved having kids here. They should be allowed travel to England if they wish, off they go. Still sad though.

    Pro life but only for the white babies :rolleyes:


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    #177
    tipparetops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    Abortion would be a difficult referendum. It could rip this country apart.
    It will take awhile for the place to recover from the last one.

    I believe abortion should be legal. People are going to England as it is, if Ireland was to legalize abortion, Ireland could regulate abortion.
    Ireland would start with a blank canvas and could put in place abortion law that suits all parties.
    A woman seeking an abortion could get proper counselling before the procedure, the final decision being the woman's, but at least she has heard both the negative and positive of having an abortion.


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    #178
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    thee glitz wrote: »
    I haven't seen that in the news yet, hope I don't. It's an outrageous thing to do.

    It's a desperate thing that desperate people do. Dozens of them every year, at least. Foetus dead, woman in agony and possibly a lot of danger, and technically liable to be jailed. Yay, pro-life!
    I thought asylum seekers loved having kids here. They should be allowed travel to England if they wish, off they go. Still sad though.

    "Sad", wow, such compassion. Such empathy for human lives and experiences.


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    #179
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    tipparetops wrote: »
    Abortion would be a difficult referendum. It could rip this country apart.
    It will take awhile for the place to recover from the last one.

    I believe abortion should be legal. People are going to England as it is, if Ireland was to legalize abortion, Ireland could regulate abortion.
    Ireland would start with a blank canvas and could put in place abortion law that suits all parties.
    A woman seeking an abortion could get proper counselling before the procedure, the final decision being the woman's, but at least she has heard both the negative and positive of having an abortion.
    I agree.

    It would also mean fewer Irish women having later-term abortions, since it can take so long to save up money to travel.

    But yes, it would be an incredibly ugly referendum. It would also be a magnet for those who see Ireland as a utopia and who would resist that change with everything they have.

    It matters little to them that regardless of whether a referendum passed or not, Irish women would still get abortions. It is happening. So, the least we can do is make sure they are safe and educated and work hard on education programmes and against things like abstinence-only education so that fewer abortions are needed in the first place.


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    #180
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    At one time in my early 20s I had a pro choice position, as I am someone who will always listen and hear the other side of the argument after I watched ( The Silent Scream ) + ( Eclipse of reason ) I could no longer in good conscience in anyway support a pro choice stance and changed to a pro life position on the issue of abortion, if any referendum comes in the next few years to remove the 8th amendment, not only will I vote no against it, I will also volunteer some spare time to help out to campaign for a no vote locally.





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    #181
    thee glitz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Pro life but only for the white babies :rolleyes:

    I'm not for preventing anyone going to the England.
    It's important that anyone considering such be given the
    best support and advice if this looks their best solution.


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