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What would you like the next referendum to legalise abortion or euthanasia?

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    #122
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Yes but he said it wasnt murder - which it clearly is. Especially in the second and third trimester. A viable child is being killed. Or "Aborted"

    so if abortion is murder why is it that even here where its illegal its not called murder or treated in the legal system as murder then :confused:


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    #123
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    No woman I would socialise with would have an abortion so thats a moot point.

    How would you know? You don't strike me as the kind of person many women in that situation would open up to...


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    #124
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Yes but he said it wasnt murder - which it clearly is. Especially in the second and third trimester. A viable child is being killed. Or "Aborted"

    Except it clearly isn't, unless you pretend that the blindingly obvious differences between a foetus and an adult are less important than the fact that they're both from the same species. If you kill a chimpanzee is it 97% murder, or is it something else?

    I'd like to see as few late term abortions as possible, Ireland's current abortion legislation means that more late term abortions will be carried out on Irish soil.


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    #125
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    eviltwin wrote: »
    so if abortion is murder why is it that even here where its illegal its not called murder or treated in the legal system as murder then :confused:

    It is treated as murder in the legal system here. Ask any doctor.


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    #126
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    No woman I would socialise with would have an abortion so thats a moot point.

    You do know a woman who's had an abortion. It is pretty much statistically impossible that you don't.


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    #127
    longshanks
    Registered Users Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭longshanks


    The next referendum should ban noisey ice cream trucks.


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    #128
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    It is treated as murder in the legal system here. Ask any doctor.

    No its not. :rolleyes:


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    #129
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    It is treated as murder in the legal system here. Ask any doctor.

    Which is exactly why our laws need to be brought in line with the rest of the civilised world.


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    #130
    thee glitz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    shane7218 wrote: »
    Abortion is not murder, women travel all over the world to have abortions and it should be there choice not yours

    Women travel all over the world to smuggle drugs and it's their choice to do that too. that doesnt make it a morally solid action.

    Sure it'd be great if we opened up abortionplexes all over the country, billed the state, and there was never an unwanted pregnancy ever again. The only problem is that it involves taking an innocent, defenceless life.


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    #131
    shane7218
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭shane7218


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Women travel all over the world to smuggle drugs and it's their choice to do that too. that doesnt make it a morally solid action.

    Sure it'd be great if we opened up abortionplexes all over the country, billed the state, and there was never an unwanted pregnancy ever again. The only problem is that it involves taking an innocent, defenceless life.

    Smuggling drugs is Illegal, there is a difference


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    #132
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    It is treated as murder in the legal system here. Ask any doctor.

    I prefer to ask lawyers for legal advice, tbh. :rolleyes:


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    #133
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Women travel all over the world to smuggle drugs and it's their choice to do that too. that doesnt make it a morally solid action.

    Sure it'd be great if we opened up abortionplexes all over the country, billed the state, and there was never an unwanted pregnancy ever again. The only problem is that it involves taking an innocent, defenceless life.

    So do you think we should remove the freedom to travel to have an abortion? Or prosecute women on their return?


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    #134
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    Multiple mixed-marriages for people under 35 please.


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    #135
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Women travel all over the world to smuggle drugs and it's their choice to do that too. that doesnt make it a morally solid action.

    Sure it'd be great if we opened up abortionplexes all over the country, billed the state, and there was never an unwanted pregnancy ever again. The only problem is that it involves taking an innocent, defenceless life.

    You can't really police what people do outside of the country, you can stop them doing it here if its illegal. I'd imagine any woman who comes into Ireland with drugs will face the full rigors of the law, I don't think any woman who has an abortion, even here on Irish soil, will be prosecuted. I know there is a 14 yr prison term written into the 8th but that's been clarified its to deal with back street abortionists who might put women at risk rather than to prosecute women who have abortions.


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    #136
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Pregnancy not being viable and a danger to the mother are both provided for in our existing abortion laws. Not that I agree with them mind. As a practising christian I cannot see how killing any of Gods creations is within my remit.
    I know you're having fun and everything but the bolded bit is untrue.

    If the pregnancy is not viable, the parents are sent away to play the waiting game or they go to england at their own expense, often struggling to get the remains back into Ireland.

    And the danger to the mother thing, only if she is at immediate risk of death. Not just very sick or that there's a chance she might die. Immediate risk of death. There's a condition that runs in my family that makes pregnancy extremely dangerous and if I were to be hospitalised during a pregnancy, I would have to wait until I was dying to get an abortion.


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    #137
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    RayM wrote: »
    Which is exactly why our laws need to be brought in line with the rest of the civilised world.

    I can't think of anything more civilised than giving a voice to children not yet born.


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    #138
    thee glitz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Sydney Chilly Magnate wrote: »
    So do you think we should remove the freedom to travel to have an abortion? Or prosecute women on their return?

    I'm not in favour of abortion in any country but it's Ireland where it would concern me. I'm not for prosecuting women on their return and would support anyone who travelled and regretted it. It's a pity England is so accessible like that but that's their own business.


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    #139
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    FouxDaFaFa wrote: »
    I know you're having fun and everything but the bolded bit is untrue.

    If the pregnancy is not viable, the parents are sent away to play the waiting game or they go to england at their own expense, often struggling to get the remains back into Ireland.

    I remember hearing a man speaking on the radio about how he and his wife had travelled to the UK to have an unviable pregnancy terminated. The only way to get the remains back to Ireland was by courier. I'll never forget hearing him describe how he opened the door to the courier (who was unaware of the contents of the package) and having to hurry him out because his wife started screaming with grief when she saw him up the drive.

    Love them both my ARSE


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    #140
    Kells1
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Kells1


    I cant believe after going through a referendum on "equality" that people want to take away the rights to life of the unborn child. What hypocrites !!!


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    #141
    folamh
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I can't think of anything more civilised than giving a voice to children not yet born.

    Then you ought oppose contraception and male masturbation. Synaptic connections necessary to support consciousness emerge at twenty weeks. An early abortion doesn't kill anyone. Early fetuses aren't even individuals, much less persons.


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    #142
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Kells1 wrote: »
    I cant believe after going through a referendum on "equality" that people want to take away the rights to life of the unborn child. What hypocrites !!!

    Its giving rights to women over their own bodies and what they choose to do with unwanted pregnancies. As a woman I want my choices to be put ahead of those of a foetus. I think that's the least I deserve.


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    #143
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    thee glitz wrote: »
    I'm not in favour of abortion in any country but it's Ireland where it would concern me. I'm not for prosecuting women on their return and would support anyone who travelled and regretted it. It's a pity England is so accessible like that but that's their own business.

    Would you not prosecute someone who brought a six year old to UK and murdered them? If not, why not. What's the difference if abortion is murder?
    What would be wrong with mandatory pregnancy tests for any woman of childbearing age leaving the country, especially going to Manchester/Liverpool?


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    #144
    fattymuatty
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭fattymuatty


    Kells1 wrote: »
    I cant believe after going through a referendum on "equality" that people want to take away the rights to life of the unborn child. What hypocrites !!!

    And what about women? What about our right to equality?


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    #145
    Eutow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    Kells1 wrote: »
    I cant believe after going through a referendum on "equality" that people want to take away the rights to life of the unborn child. What hypocrites !!!

    Why should a foetus have the same rights as somebody that has actually been born? If it is the choice between saving the mother's life or that of the foetus she is carrying there should be only one decision. So, making that decision proves one has more rights than the other.


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    #146
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    I can't believe that after a referendum on equality, we continue to afford a foetus the same rights as the living, breathing woman carrying it, denying her of her right to bodily autonomy. Women are not vessels, here to carry foetuses about to ease your moral guilt over something that isn't even your business.


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    #147
    thee glitz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I don't think any woman who has an abortion, even here on Irish soil, will be prosecuted. I know there is a 14 yr prison term written into the 8th but that's been clarified its to deal with back street abortionists who ūmight put women at risk rather than to prosecute women who have abortions

    Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.


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    #148
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.

    It is. Not everybody can get the money together in time to travel, especially the very young.


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    #149
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.

    Are you hopelessly naive or what? Of course it's a "thing" here.


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    #150
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.

    Are you seriously saying you think women who have abortions should "probably" be in prison? What would that achieve?

    The DIY abortion is still happening, its just happening at home with pills bought online or concoctions created after a web search.


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    #151
    folamh
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    I like Carl Sagan's essay on the ethics of abortion:

    "Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the origin of the Earth, 4.6 billion years ago. Nor does human life begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain dating back to the origin of our species, hundreds of thousands of years ago. Every human sperm and egg is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, alive. They are not human beings, of course. However, it could be argued that neither is a fertilized egg."

    http://2think.org/sagan_abortion.shtml


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