Equality of marriage and love

recedite

Is there any indication that people in the Kremlin are pushing the Russian public towards homophobia, rather than the other way round?

If a govt. does not reflect public opinion it will be criticised and lose power.
Its a bit of a "chicken and egg" situation over there.

marienbad

recedite wrote: »

Is there any indication that people in the Kremlin are pushing the Russian public towards homophobia, rather than the other way round?

If a govt. does not reflect public opinion it will be criticised and lose power.
Its a bit of a "chicken and egg" situation over there.

Governments are supposed to lead , are they not ?

Pherekydes

recedite wrote: »

Is there any indication that people in the Kremlin are pushing the Russian public towards homophobia, rather than the other way round?

In 2013 the Russian parliament voted unanimously to enact an anti-LGBT law (I think there may have been one abstention).

Indication? Cast iron proof, though I'm certain it won't be good enough for you.

recedite

marienbad wrote: »

Governments are supposed to lead , are they not ?

That's what Tony Blair kept saying about his decision to declare war on Iraq, despite the massive anti-war demonstrations on the streets of London at the time.

Pherekydes wrote: »

In 2013 the Russian parliament voted unanimously to enact an anti-LGBT law (I think there may have been one abstention).Indication? Cast iron proof, though I'm certain it won't be good enough for you.

The job of a parliament is to enact legislation and to reflect the wishes of the electorate, is it not?
As the term "the Kremlin" is somewhat ambiguous, I don't know whether the author of that NY Times article was referring to the entire Russian parliament when he referred to "the Kremlin’s antigay campaign" but I suspect he meant "the Putin administration" or the govt. or else just Putin.

Pherekydes

recedite wrote: »

The job of a parliament is to enact legislation and to reflect the wishes of the electorate, is it not?

Do you honestly think this applies to the Russian people?

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

The job of a parliament is to enact legislation and to reflect the wishes of the electorate, is it not?

You appear to be under the misapprehension that Russia is some type of democracy.

Cabaal

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35978328

My secret life as a gay ultra-Orthodox Jew

Chaya, not her real name, is an ultra-Orthodox Jewish woman who is gay. Here she describes her struggle to accept her sexuality, and why she has to keep it a secret from those who would make her choose between her identity and her family.

I would lose everything if I came out. We are a tightly knit community and I think few people realise just how isolated we are. In the world I live in, being gay is the equivalent of being a bad person. It's seen as an evil desire that is completely unnatural.

Soon after, my parents began to arrange a marriage for me. There is often a matchmaker involved in problem cases like mine

People I have grown up with would wonder what else I could be capable of. Few would believe that I could still be religious and if I did eventually leave the Haredi community it would mean losing my job, my home and potentially my children.

It's just easier for everyone to pretend that there is nothing different about me. In fact, most people prefer to act as though homosexuality does not exist.

I was still at school when I first tried telling a rabbi I was gay but all he said in response was: "It's just a phase, it happens to a lot of girls."

Cabaal

http://www.breakingnews.ie/showbiz/bryan-adams-cancels-gig-over-mississippis-anti-gay-laws-729073.html

Canadian rocker Bryan Adams has cancelled a performance in Mississippi, citing the state's new law that allows religious groups and some private businesses to refuse service to gay couples.

The cancelled show was due to take place on Thursday at the Mississippi Coast Coliseum in Biloxi.

The Run To You singer said he cannot "in good conscience" perform in a state where "certain people are being denied their civil rights due to their sexual orientation".

pauldla

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/showbiz/bryan-adams-cancels-gig-over-mississippis-anti-gay-laws-729073.html

Well it's an ill-wind that blows no good, I suppose... :pac:

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Is there any indication that people in the Kremlin are pushing the Russian public towards homophobia, rather than the other way round?

Russia and its current government is in a peculiar place just now - there's no overriding state philosophy or state direction other than doing whatever is generally felt necessary for Putin and those up and down the crossover feudal/mafia-state power vertical to maintaining their grip on state-controlled power and state-controlled money. As part of this, the Kremlin is hypersensitive to internal and external criticism, and driven primarily by short-term requirements to maintain popularity - hence events like the invasion, subjugation and theft of Crimea, and the outpouring of nationalist hysteria which followed it. And following that, the bombing of the Syrian opposition - both presented as grand foreign policy achievements, rather than what they were - the violent and frequently murderous subjugation of foreign populations.

Laws, including the laws against "promoting homosexuality" aren't all that important since the executive controls the judiciary, the police and the legislature and, with the prominent exception of Chechnya and its weird leader Kadyrov, there is no balance of powers. The fedual/mafia-state requirements of the power vertical supersede whatever's on the state (absolutely enormous, btw) statute book.

To say that Putin and company are systemically homophobic is probably an exaggeration and it misses the point of the Kremlin's homophobic forays. It has certainly contributed to an openly homophobic atmosphere, but mainly as a distraction for the general public, something to keep the ultra-conservatives onboard. As somebody once said, if the Kremlin was systemically homophobic, most of the senior Kremlin staff and probably Putin himself, would need to be fired.

alan partridge aha

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/showbiz/bryan-adams-cancels-gig-over-mississippis-anti-gay-laws-729073.html

That's a huge loss to Mississippi.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

short-term requirements to maintain popularity - hence events like the invasion, subjugation and theft of Crimea, and the outpouring of nationalist hysteria which followed it. And following that, the bombing of the Syrian opposition - both presented as grand foreign policy achievements

And yet the fact remains that both Syria and Crimea asked for Russian help.
And both operations achieved their objectives within a relatively short time, unlike the open ended interventions characteristic of Nato, which seem to be devised primarily to create and maintain a state of chaos in countries that are not sympathetic to them. So yes, they were great achievements.

marienbad

recedite wrote: »

And yet the fact remains that both Syria and Crimea asked for Russian help.
And both operations achieved their objectives within a relatively short time, unlike the open ended interventions characteristic of Nato, which seem to be devised primarily to create and maintain a state of chaos in countries that are not sympathetic to them. So yes, they were great achievements.

Gimme a break -'Asking for help' has a pedigree has as long and as dubious as the concept of aggression .

What has Nato got to do with it ?

Cabaal

recedite wrote: »

Crimea asked for Russian help.

Hang on, Crimea was part of Ukraine end of.
Claiming it asked for help is utter nonsense, if the Basque region in Spain "asked for help" and Russia invaded would you think this is all fine and dandy too? Would it still be fine when they shoot down a aircraft from another EU country murdering people like Russia did back in 2014?

If Crimea was some back arse of no where Russia wouldn't have done anything, the only reason why they went near it is it had strategic value and gas/oil. In short, it benefited Russia.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

And yet the fact remains that both Syria and Crimea asked for Russian help.

We've discussed this a few times before so no point in rehashing the thread - suffice it to say that "Crimea" did not ask Russia for help in any legal, or even meaningful, sense of the words "help" or "Crimea".

MrPudding

robindch wrote: »

We've discussed this a few times before so no point in rehashing the thread - suffice it to say that "Crimea" did not ask Russia for help in any legal, or even meaningful, sense of the words "help" or "Crimea".

Let's hope Cork doesn't ask for their help...

MrP

robindch

MrPudding wrote: »

Let's hope Cork doesn't ask for their help.

At least Cork wouldn't have to change the county colors.

BTW, красная (krasnaya) is the Russian word for both 'red' and 'beautiful' - conveniently providing a classy leg-up for red, understood only as the color of revolutionary blood elsewhere.

Cabaal

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/ringo-starr-north-carolina-cancels-gig-2714650-Apr2016/

Ringo Starr cancels North Carolina gig over transgender "bathroom law"

I wouldn't be planning on going to any concert due to take place in North Carolina, there's an awful good chance it'll be cancelled at this stage

I'm sure they can have some christian rock concerts instead or something,

Also there's an awful good chance that if a big multinational said they'd create jobs in the area, that won't happen either now

Yesterday Deutsche Bank added its voice to the growing protest.

The bank said in a statement that it would “freeze plans to create 250 new jobs at its Cary, North Carolina, location” by the end of 2017.

I'm sure of course they can make up for these jobs by errr....opening more church's?

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm sure of course they can make up for these jobs by errr....opening more church's?

Gonna be hard for the state to make any money out of that, given that the churches are tax-free.

I dunno, maybe the churches can pray for money or something like that? Does that work?

Trent Houseboat

Think of all the people who will be hired as guards at toilet doors to check long-form birth certificates to ensure people are using the phenotypically appropriate facilities.

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

Gonna be hard for the state to make any money out of that, given that the churches are tax-free.

I dunno, maybe the churches can pray for money or something like that? Does that work?

Well you see you are forgetting that if they build more church's then can pray for better weather, god to create more coal, state team winning sports team, people entering/wwing lotto, etc and this in turn will generate money for the state.

Church's are direct telephones to god after all

Asaiah

robindch wrote: »

We've discussed this a few times before so no point in rehashing the thread - suffice it to say that "Crimea" did not ask Russia for help in any legal, or even meaningful, sense of the words "help" or "Crimea".

My Crimean friends and relatives all say that they did ask for help. I will believe them over you thanks.

How many Crimeans do you know?

How often were you in communication with Crimean people during the crises?

Ever visited Crimea?


Of course I know the answer to the above 3 questions is

None, never and no.

marienbad

Asaiah wrote: »

My Crimean friends and relatives all say that they did ask for help. I will believe them over you thanks.

How many Crimeans do you know?

How often were you in communication with Crimean people during the crises?

Ever visited Crimea?


Of course I know the answer to the above 3 questions is

None, Never and no.

So what , if they believe as you do it is not very surprising . International law trumps anecdotal polling every time .

Asaiah

marienbad wrote: »

So what , if they believe as you do it is not very surprising . International law trumps anecdotal polling every time .

International law is a transient thing that exists if and when the big players in this world say it does, and is ignored at their discretion. If you believe otherwise you are mistaken.

Human morals and what is right trumps international law every time. Crimean is Russian, the infrastructure, buildings were built by Russians. The culture, language and ethnicity is 90% Russian. They righted a historical wrong made by a drunken Soviet and damned be anyone who would try deny a nation of people the right to this self determination, International law is an ass.

marienbad

Asaiah wrote: »

International law is a transient thing that exists if and when the big players in this world say it does, and is ignored at their discretion. If you believe otherwise you are mistaken.

Human morals and what is right trumps international law every time. Crimean is Russian, the infrastructure, buildings were built by Russians. The culture, language and ethnicity is 90% Russian. They righted a historical wrong made by a drunken Soviet and damned be anyone who would try deny a nation of people the right to this self determination, International law is an ass.

You would say that wouldn't you , reminds me of all the times the gung-ho British imperialists boasted about building the railways .

New aggression - same old tune

robindch

Asaiah wrote: »

My Crimean friends and relatives all say that they did ask for help. I will believe them over you thanks.

It's a well-documented fact that many pro-Putin and pro-Russian people, Ukrainians and Russians alive, "asked" for "help" - for a weird meaning of the words "ask" and "help", both informed by the hysterical Nazi-level propaganda provided by the Kremlin during the crisis.

Asaiah wrote: »

How many Crimeans do you know?

Finger in the air, I'd say maybe eight or ten, and a further twenty or so Ukrainians. All were/are vehemently opposed to having their country invaded and dismembered, and the Crimeans themselves disenfranchsed and effectively stripped of their citizenship following a referendum which was laughed at around the world.

Particularly upsetting was a friend of mine from here in Dublin whose child was abducted by his ex and spirited away to Crimea some years ago - while the Ukrianian authorities were working with him to recover his child, he has been all but told to f*ck off by the Russians and he does not expect to see his child again.

Perhaps you support the Russian government in this, as you appear to support their activities elsewhere?

Asaiah wrote: »

How often were you in communication with Crimean people during the crises?

Aside from a range of twitter feeds which were enormously informative and which I followed closely, oddly enough, I was in touch with people in Crimea every few days during and after the crisis and fake referendum. And I was present at the Maidan protests in Kyiv during February 2014 and have fairly vivid memories of it - as opposed to the entirely fictitious account provided by Kremlin-controlled media at the time, and since.

Asaiah wrote: »

Ever visited Crimea?

Nope, though I've been to Russia and Ukraine perhaps fifteen times and speak conversational Russian - how about you?

T6i predpochitaesh prodolzhat6 3to razgovor na russkom yas6ike?

robindch

Asaiah wrote: »

They righted a historical wrong made by a drunken Soviet and damned be anyone who would try deny a nation of people the right to this self determination, International law is an ass.

Your knowledge of history is not fully accurate, informed as it appears to be, by Kremlin propaganda and the "drunken clown in 1954" meme which the Kremlin has deployed with skill and persistence amongst its consumer base.

As you support self-determination, you should be pleased to learn that Crimea in fact, held two referendums in 1991 regarding its sovereignty:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991

The first referendum approved its independence, the second approved its membership of Ukraine.

The referendum in 2014 was faked to a comical degree, and is rejected worldwide save for Russia, Afghanistan, Cuba, Nicaragua, Syria, Venezuela and North Korea - a rather poor club of friends, one would have thought.

Since Crimea was seized by Russia, Russia rushed through laws which make separatism, and even discussion of separatism, within Russia a criminal offence - do you sense any conflict between your support for self-determination and the active policy of the Russian state?

Hotblack Desiato

Asaiah wrote: »

International law is a transient thing that exists if and when the big players in this world say it does, and is ignored at their discretion. If you believe otherwise you are mistaken.

Yep, like when Russia tore up the treaty guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Ukraine which it signed in the early 1990s.

Oh wait.

The Black Oil

Snippet of an interview with yer man who edits Alive! Shure ya can't beat an auld bias whinge.

https://twitter.com/Stephanenny/status/721636107906117632