Equality of marriage and love

Turtwig

Following on from here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056711797&page=244

Geniass

Really making the effort with this post/thread.

It's like you couldn't really be bothered to fini

galljga1

Do we need another thread?

Links234

galljga1 wrote: »

Do we need another thread?

This is the beginning of the end!

Brian Shanahan

Well, what I was about to say just as Turtwig was closing the old thread is that we've now got to work on the people who voted against the referendum, show them that passing SSM is not the end of the world and that all the predictions of the no side were lies simply told to bully them into voting no.

Let us not forget that most of the people who voted no are not homophobes*, they were simply afraid of the change to their world^ which while stultifying and autocratic at least had the virtue for them of being solid and dependable. They voted out of a manufactured fear that something would go wrong, either god striking their loved ones down, the church being forced into performing same sex marriages or millions of kids being adopted for the sole purpose of being neglected and or abused%.

Most of their fears will be evaporated by the rest of us going around living our normal lives, no matter our sexual orientation (like what happened with the divorce referendum), but there must be care taken to reinforce the ordinariness of two people in love getting married no matter the sexual orientation, while not going overboard on the spectacle and pushing the 30odd% who voted out of fear further into the arms of the homophobes. If we approach this right, in a few years we'll see over 95% support for SSM and an even further lessening of the dead hand influence of the church and other paleo-conservative groups like Iona on the people and the country.


Somebody could probably express this sentiment a lot better, but I hope I'm at least clear in my words.

*For the few who actually are, there's no helping, and they should be starved of media publicity from here on out.

^ As Terry Pratchett put it, we really don't live in a shared world (despite all of us being on the one planet), but on a myriad of myriads of individual imagined worlds set up to suit our philosophies and prejudices.

% Pretty much what Iona et al were hysterically shouting about during the "debates".

PopePalpatine

Butthurt begins:

Manach wrote: »

Given the invective & demonisation hurl at Mr. Quinn by the tolerant classes of Ireland, it was hardly likely that any form of concession that did not involve a form of his auto-proskynesis would have been accepted. :rolleyes:
The electoral defeat is likely to one of many such, with the anti-clericalism coming in to bloom as is the fashion, but just as the eve of Pentecost approaches, so to does the enduring message of the Church's message and that hopefully will continue to be heard.

Pherekydes

Links234 wrote: »

This is the beginning of the end!

This is not the end! This is not even the beginning of the end! It just might be the end of the end.

Hang on. /runs off to find the big book of clever quotes.

Aha. The end of the beginning!

So 'g', then.

Brian Shanahan

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Butthurt begins:

You know it is a good thing for my sanity that I've no access to that part of boards.ie. The far-right wingnuttery that is the default voice over there is amazing in its scariness.

The Black Oil

American Boy Scouts still struggling with the idea of gay leaders.

Robert Gates, the president of the Boy Scouts of America, says the organization must reassess its ban on gay adults, saying, "We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be."

Gates, a former CIA director and former defense secretary, warned officials in the organization in Atlanta on Thursday that failure to make changes quickly could spell "the end of us as a national movement."

"I am not asking the national board for any action to change our current policy at this meeting," he said. "But I must speak as plainly and bluntly to you as I spoke to presidents when I was director of CIA and secretary of defense."

Gates said many local councils were already challenging the national organization's membership policy, and many more could be expected to follow.

"While technically we have the authority to revoke their charters, such an action would deny the lifelong benefits of scouting to hundreds of thousands of boys and young men today and vastly more in the future," he said. "I will not take that path."

Gates said several states had passed laws protecting employment rights based on sexual orientation.

"Thus, between internal challenges and potential legal conflicts, the BSA finds itself in an unsustainable position," he said. "A position that makes us vulnerable to the possibility the courts simply will order us at some point to change our membership policy. We must all understand that this probably will happen sooner rather than later."

Source

galljga1

I knew the CIA ran the boyscouts.


Heads off to conspiracy theory forum to setup new thread: CIA infiltrate boyscouts org with gay scout leaders.

lazygal

In with the first mention of pizza. When will Hawaiian pizza be accepted as different and equal?

galljga1

lazygal wrote: »

In with the first mention of pizza. When will Hawaiian pizza be accepted as different and equal?

Sorry, No. And before you start calling me pineappleaphobic, I do like pineapple on its own, just not on pizza. Everything has it's place.

Cedrus

lazygal wrote: »

In with the first mention of pizza. When will Hawaiian pizza be accepted as different and equal?

NEVER! You pervert! Margheriata all the way.


Umm.

ziedth

I have nothing against peineapples but i don't agree with them on a pizza therefore nobody should have pineapples.

fergus1001

ziedth wrote:

I have nothing against peineapples but i don't agree with them on a pizza therefore nobody should have pineapples.

Equality for hawian pizza !!

lazygal

fergus1001 wrote: »

Equality for hawian pizza !!

Every father and mother matters and have the right to enjoy pizza of their choosing.

Hotblack Desiato

From the old thread -

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95605090&postcount=9717

BlaasForRafa wrote:

I had to laugh when I saw Diarmuid Martin interviewed earlier and he was asked about the young people that came out in droves to support the yes vote and he said "well the young people that came out are a product of 12 years of education in catholic schools" and you could see the lightbulb in his brain shatter at that point "oh"

Video here. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32858501 Doesn't include the 12 years quote though, anyone got a link to that?

Hotblack Desiato

The Black Oil wrote: »

American Boy Scouts still struggling with the idea of gay leaders.

They better watch out, if they let the gays in then the atheists might be next.

galljga1

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They better watch out, if they let the gays in then the atheists might be next.

Gay atheists? I can hear the seven trumpets.

fergus1001

Wouldn't they all be atheists ? Unless they want to actively believe they're living in sin

Not a NSA agent

fergus1001 wrote: »

Wouldn't they all be atheists ? Unless they want to actively believe they're living in sin

Catholicism is pretty much based on the idea that everyone is awful. If people didnt join because of what it said about them nobody would be a member.

lazygal

fergus1001 wrote: »

Wouldn't they all be atheists ? Unless they want to actively believe they're living in sin

This is Ireland. We've protestant and Catholic atheists here.

galljga1

fergus1001 wrote: »

Wouldn't they all be atheists ? Unless they want to actively believe they're living in sin

Not necessarily. Maybe non christians or christians who choose to ignore some of the more nonsense bits of their religion or 'struggling' christians.

galljga1

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

Catholicism is pretty much based on the idea that everyone is awful. If people didnt join because of what it said about them nobody would be a member.

I love that definition.

Going Strong

galljga1 wrote: »

Not necessarily. Maybe non christians or christians who choose to ignore some of the more nonsense bits of their religion or 'struggling' christians.

There seems to be a "Don't ask/Don't tell" aspect to gay members of the congregation as well.

Turtwig

Geniass wrote: »

Really making the effort with this post/thread.

It's like you couldn't really be bothered to fini

I did it from my phone. You've no idea how awkward it is to close a thread, open one, link them together on your phone, all while your vision is blurring and the eyelids still don't want to stay properly open. It's hard. The hamsters needed saving though.

K4t

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You know it is a good thing for my sanity that I've no access to that part of boards.ie. The far-right wingnuttery that is the default voice over there is amazing in its scariness.

I had a post written last night (never posted it) regarding the difference between the content of posts in the Christianity forum and here! I'm not the only one who notices it! It really debunks the argument that Atheism is simply a religion itself. To be expected I suppose though when so many of them surrender their ability of rational thought thus rendering themselves impotent of objective criticism.

Is anyone sick and tired of hearing about the 40% yet? Iona still playing the victim card strongly I see. The worst thing about this having to be achieved via referendum is that it made equality a political issue in 2015; The No side keep throwing around both the words winning and losing even after the result, not realising that they are winners too, and that we all would have been losers had a No vote prevailed. Equality is equality, it was disappointing to see it used as a political football by two fierce rivals for teams.

Going Strong

Breda O'Brien was determinedly making it political last night on RTE news. The way I saw it was her making a plea for Renua to either take the No-ers with them next year or else for the No-ers to make sure Renua reflected their views and their views only by joining the party. Interesting times ahead.

Merces

The same sex marriage victory was a battle won for LGBT equality but the war isn't over. Irish transsexuals such as myself can't legally change our gender after a sex change yet. Let's get that sorted and maybe the Iona crowd will have a communal aneurism.

Turtwig

Mod:

This type of cross posting and bickering is not acceptable. At the very least, you're expected to let the other poster know you've made this post about them. Providing a re-direct link in the source thread to your post. However, even so don't be surprised if future actions similar to this leads to cards. Please don't do this again.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Butthurt begins:

joseph brand

Going Strong wrote: »

Breda O'Brien was determinedly making it political last night on RTE news. The way I saw it was her making a plea for Renua to either take the No-ers with them next year or else for the No-ers to make sure Renua reflected their views and their views only by joining the party. Interesting times ahead.

The No side have been complaining that all the political parties supported the Yes side, leaving Iona as the lone bastion of bigotry. Apparently they are solely funded through grassroots voters, which surprises me as I'm sure they have wealthy donors. (Tom Monaghan of Dominos Pizza)

Anyway, they're like a lost flock of sheep waiting on a new shepherd (political party). Lucinda must be looking attractive. I have no idea whether she or Renua supported the mar-ref or not. I don't believe they have a whip system, they're all 'independent' in that party. But looking at her twitter, I'd guess that she's none too pleased.

joseph brand

Great Bouncing Ionaballs!

Zoom in with your mouse, drag them around.

The ever-expanding list of concerned groups against the Gay seemed to defy the laws of physics, chemistry, biology and common sense. We only have four and a half million people in the country. How could we have ten million right-wing Catholic pressure groups. Mothers and Fathers Matter. The Iona Institute. Educators for Conscience. Stand Up For Marriage. Down With That Sort of Thing. Monty Python Against Sexiness.

Register as a charity (for tax-relief purposes) -> receive donations -> profit!

pH

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Let us not forget that most of the people who voted no are not homophobes*,

I disagree - I reckon the vast majority of no voters still feel homosexuality is wrong in some sort of moral/social sense - whether that makes them homophobic is a matter of semantics, but I believe they think that homosexuality is wrong in exactly the same way as they (and probably most people posting here) believe that drug taking, prostitution, pornography etc. are wrong.

This moral victory for gay people is absolutely to be commended, but let's not judge those who are "homophobic" when there is still quite a long list of victimless crimes we (as in the people of Ireland) are all too happy to persecute people for.

fergus1001

lazygal wrote:

This is Ireland. We've protestant and Catholic atheists here.

An oxymoron ?

pauldla

RE: The Old Thread, if it so happens that gay marriage does indeed bring about the End of the World, can we reopen it please?

Links234

Merces wrote: »

The same sex marriage victory was a battle won for LGBT equality but the war isn't over. Irish transsexuals such as myself can't legally change our gender after a sex change yet. Let's get that sorted and maybe the Iona crowd will have a communal aneurism.

Yeah but this was a gigantic win for trans folks too, that horrible forced divorce requirement for gender recognition is no longer on the cards now. Big up for us

elfy4eva

ziedth wrote: »

I have nothing against peineapples but i don't agree with them on a pizza therefore nobody should have pineapples.

I'm a regular pineapple eater, and am not against pineapple pizza's specifically i'm against pizzas in general.

:pac:

Bannasidhe

pH wrote: »

I disagree - I reckon the vast majority of no voters still feel homosexuality is wrong in some sort of moral/social sense - whether that makes them homophobic is a matter of semantics, but I believe they think that homosexuality is wrong in exactly the same way as they (and probably most people posting here) believe that drug taking, prostitution, pornography etc. are wrong.

I disagree.

Having lived my life as an out lesbian I have no hesitation in saying that if someone equates my sexual orientation with drug taking, prostitution, pornography - all of which are choices - then they are homophobic. They may not be queer-bashers but they are still guilty of seeing LGBT as guilty of some moral crime and that is as much homophobia as not wanting a black doctor to treat you in an A&E is racist. It is assigning negative characteristics to a whole group of people based only on personal prejudice.

I will not accept any excuse for bigotry - the fact that this may be how the 'feel' is not good enough - they do not have the right to judge regardless of their beliefs.

K4t

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I disagree.

Having lived my life as an out lesbian I have no hesitation in saying that if someone equates my sexual orientation with drug taking, prostitution, pornography - all of which are choices - then they are homophobic. They may not be queer-bashers but they are still guilty of seeing LGBT as guilty of some moral crime and that is as much homophobia as not wanting a black doctor to treat you in an A&E is racist. It is assigning negative characteristics to a whole group of people based only on personal prejudice.

I will not accept any excuse for bigotry - the fact that this may be how the 'feel' is not good enough - they do not have the right to judge regardless of their beliefs.

True. It's like when people say they don't hate gays or lgbt, it's just their belief, usually religious. Yes, but those beliefs originate from hate. The truth is that a significant number of that 700,000 who voted no are homophobic, even if the only way they have expressed that homophobia in their whole lives is true a no vote on Friday. I think Panti put it best when he, she, etc. said - "Gay people are now not the victims of homophobia, homophobes are."

Brian Shanahan

K4t wrote: »

I had a post written last night (never posted it) regarding the difference between the content of posts in the Christianity forum and here! I'm not the only one who notices it! It really debunks the argument that Atheism is simply a religion itself. To be expected I suppose though when so many of them surrender their ability of rational thought thus rendering themselves impotent of objective criticism.

The worst thing about 'tudder forum is that it's not even representative of christians in general. I've met many committed christians*, even to being members of religious orders, and to a man or woman they are nothing like the rabidity regularly on display over there, and would be horrified by the lack of common decency in the forum.

*Well, d'uh I live in a country which still has a significant catholic population.

Is anyone sick and tired of hearing about the 40% yet? Iona still playing the victim card strongly I see. The worst thing about this having to be achieved via referendum is that it made equality a political issue in 2015; The No side keep throwing around both the words winning and losing even after the result, not realising that they are winners too, and that we all would have been losers had a No vote prevailed. Equality is equality, it was disappointing to see it used as a political football by two fierce rivals for teams.

The thing is Iona aren't winners in this, nor are the rcc hierarchy, because one of the levers of control they took up for themselves has just been definitively kicked out of their hands. They can no longer look down on the LGBT community and discriminate against them without a severe backlash. And the fact that they threw their efforts behind the homophobia vote and lost so heavily must be preying on their minds mightily at the moment, because they must realise after this weekend that they no longer have any hold on the Irish people as a whole and are becoming increasingly irrelevant in the nation's life, except insofar as the government is too chicken to finally seperate the state from the rcc.

The Black Oil

The bitterness of some of the No camp is quite telling, imo.

Bruce Arnold is still harping on in the letters page of the Irish Times.

Anyone know what this is about? (same link as above)

Sir, – As Sheriff of Dublin City from 1995 to 2012, I handled four general elections (600-plus ballot boxes each time), all European, presidential, local and byelections in that time and countless referendums. Never in all that time did any member of the Garda “seal and secure” any ballot boxes (May 21st).

It is not, and never has been, their function, that being the absolute responsibility of the returning officer and his staff – and his staff only.

Assuming she was correctly reported, someone should have a word in Ms Fidelma Healy Eames’s ear. – Yours, etc,
BRENDAN WALSH,
Dublin 4.

marienbad

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

From the old thread -

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95605090&postcount=9717



Video here. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32858501 Doesn't include the 12 years quote though, anyone got a link to that?

I actually thought that was an outstanding and thoughtful interview . He is a much more reasonable guy that half those opus dei /iona crowd

lazygal

Senator Healy Eames getting it wrong as usual. When will mothers day be cancelled?

pH

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I disagree.

Having lived my life as an out lesbian I have no hesitation in saying that if someone equates my sexual orientation with drug taking, prostitution, pornography - all of which are choices - then they are homophobic. They may not be queer-bashers but they are still guilty of seeing LGBT as guilty of some moral crime and that is as much homophobia as not wanting a black doctor to treat you in an A&E is racist. It is assigning negative characteristics to a whole group of people based only on personal prejudice.

I will not accept any excuse for bigotry - the fact that this may be how the 'feel' is not good enough - they do not have the right to judge regardless of their beliefs.

I'm sorry but this distinction about things we can hate and punish people for that are "choices" as opposed to "non-choices" is a tortured piece of non-thinking which has become prevalent in progressive circles as a way of promoting "in" causes while still somehow giving those same people moral authority to condemn others for victimless crimes.

Why you are/do/believe something is entirely irrelevant, homosexuality cause no harm to anyone, and therefore should not be proscribed in any way - just because others find it distasteful, immoral or whatever is irrelevant - gay people aren't harming anyone - they should absolutely be allowed to get on with their lives unhindered and with no discrimination and as equals - but this has nothing whatsoever to do with why they're gay.

Bannasidhe

pH wrote: »

I'm sorry but this distinction about things we can hate and punish people for that are "choices" as opposed to "non-choices" is a tortured piece of non-thinking which has become prevalent in progressive circles as a way of promoting "in" causes while still somehow giving those same people moral authority to condemn others for victimless crimes.

Why you are/do/believe something is entirely irrelevant, homosexuality cause no harm to anyone, and therefore should not be proscribed in any way - just because others find it distasteful, immoral or whatever is irrelevant - gay people aren't harming anyone - they should absolutely be allowed to get on with their lives unhindered and with no discrimination and as equals - but this has nothing whatsoever to do with why they're gay.

Yet - I have seen just such punishments handed out by so called moral guardians so all your fine words are meaningless in the real world where the haters are enabled by the 'just find it distasteful'.

I have lived through the illegality of homosexuality in Ireland.
I lived through the 'gay plague'.
I lived through Clause 28.
In some countries I would be lucky to remain alive.

Do not dare diminish what LGBT people have suffered and continue to suffer across the world and act as if it's just 'distaste' or declare what those arrayed against us feel is not relevant -

You don't get that right.

fergus1001

elfy4eva wrote:

I'm a regular pineapple eater, and am not against pineapple pizza's specifically i'm against pizzas in general.

I'm voting no for pineapple equality, disgusting fruit

Nodin

.........................in exactly the same way as they (and probably most people posting here) believe that drug taking, prostitution, pornography etc. are
wrong.

........might be a bit wrong there.

Merces

joseph brand wrote: »

The No side have been complaining that all the political parties supported the Yes side, leaving Iona as the lone bastion of bigotry. Apparently they are solely funded through grassroots voters, which surprises me as I'm sure they have wealthy donors. (Tom Monaghan of Dominos Pizza)

I knew Pappa John was a bigoted pizza company but Dominos is news to me. Glad I use Four Star. What is it with Pizza companies and bigotry?

Merces

Links234 wrote: »

Yeah but this was a gigantic win for trans folks too, that horrible forced divorce requirement for gender recognition is no longer on the cards now. Big up for us

Yeah, that should make the legislation easier, and hopefully it will arrive sooner because of it.

Nodin

Comedy time with Breda

Seven hundred and thirty-four thousand, three hundred people did not vote No to love and equality. They are just as generous and inclusive as their
neighbours who voted Yes, and just as fond of their gay relatives. In fact, some of them are gay themselves.

Yep. They voted to stop people being able to do something they disapproved of. Really, really tolerant that is.

We do not have to admire the fact that the campaign may have lasted weeks, but the soft coverage of gay icons and celebrities and “human interest” stories pushing the Yes side have been going on for years, with the enthusiastic collusion of the media.

The universal translator has this as "De Libirul meedja!!!11!!!!!"

The same Government presided over the disintegration of mental health
services – everything from removing guidance counsellors from school, often the first to pick up serious problems – to decimating the psychiatric services. The hypocrisy is stunning.

....and they wanted the ghey marry too? Kill them, kill them all!!!!!!!!!!

Yet certain facts remain facts no matter how often they are denied. Every
time two men bring a new child into the world, they need to use surrogacy. Every time.

Whats that thing some people do? A-dop? A-dop-shun? Breda should ask one of her mates in the institute about it. The fella. He's bound to know something about it.

Some day, there will be a young Irish woman wandering the streets of
Copenhagen. She will have been raised by her lesbian mother and her partner, both of whom she loves dearly, and who are great mothers

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/breda-o-brien-an-inconvenient-truth-about-the-same-sex-marriage-referendum-1.2224422

I'd offer a prize for anyone who guesses why she picked Copenhagen, but I can only guess meself.

The full whinge
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/breda-o-brien-an-inconvenient-truth-about-the-same-sex-marriage-referendum-1.2224422

Pherekydes

Nodin wrote: »

I'd offer a prize for anyone who guesses why she picked Copenhagen, but I can only guess meself.

They like Carlsberg?