Refused a day off to attend family wedding. **Mod warning post 1**

Cyrus

lanciadub wrote: »

can be adapted quite easily ...

to a wedding?

If you have a family crisis the Parental Leave Acts 1998 and 2006 give an employee a limited right to leave from work. This is known as force majeure leave. It arises where, for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable owing to an injury or illness of a close family member.

_Brian

lanciadub wrote: »

can be adapted quite easily ...

It's people trying to "adapt" Force Majoure leave to weddings etc that have employers backs up against it.
Used correctly it's a brilliant option for parents etc when their back it to the wall.

Chimichangas

Thats a bad situation.
Based on the OP I dont think much of the management or reasons given for refusing the days leave.
You dont need to apply for 1 day off 9-10mths in advance, thats ridiculous. But at the same time all leave requests cant be granted, and some are refused but with decent explanations. I would think there must be more to the story, and why the leave was refused. Hope its not personal. But from what was said in the OP i would be unhapy with the manager, company and seeing if there was better out there.

Ronald Cynic

One small point that is slightly off topic...

The OP mentioned that she sometimes puts in unpaid overtime. I would suggest that she never does this again. Management can't have it both ways, there has to be give and take, they are only taking.

irish_dave_83

You should be able to take your entitled leave when you like, bar exceptional circumstances, i.e. the rest of your team is off.

But as previous have said, I would try an give a solution, if that fails have a chat with the HR unit on the policy on taking annual leave, so you are on a sound footing for the next approach.

Is deciding your all your leave for the upcoming year a actual policy or a standard operating practice in your section? If it is a policy its a crazy one, I can understand your vacation but not for single days.
I can understand that leave can be refused, I have done it to people myself, but I would make an significant effort for my staff before refusing it (more of an effort than checking the rota anyway).

Cyrus

Ronald Cynic wrote: »

One small point that is slightly off topic...

The OP mentioned that she sometimes puts in unpaid overtime. I would suggest that she never does this again. Management can't have it both ways, there has to be give and take, they are only taking.

indeed,

don't put anything extra in, stick it to the management

then post a thread wondering why you haven't progressed

tayto lover

Cyrus wrote: »

indeed,

don't put anything extra in, stick it to the management

then post a thread wondering why you haven't progressed

Wrong.
Management should ensure they have a happy workforce. A happy workforce is more productive.
If someone is working extra unpaid hours they should be facilitated.
It's called reciprocation.

Cyrus

tayto lover wrote: »

Wrong.
Management should ensure they have a happy workforce. A happy workforce is more productive.
If someone is working extra unpaid hours they should be facilitated.
It's called reciprocation.

Unless you are doing shift work extra unpaid hours are generally covered in your employment contract. i.e. you may be required to work extra hours depending on the requirements of the business

you get your reciprocation at bonus time or promotion time

Ronald Cynic

Cyrus wrote: »

Unless you are doing shift work extra unpaid hours are generally covered in your employment contract. i.e. you may be required to work extra hours depending on the requirements of the business

you get your reciprocation at bonus time or promotion time

That type of contract normally applies to so called "staff" not "hourly paid" employees and they usually have in return more flexible time off and sick leave arrangements. I'm guessing from the lack of flexibeilty shown that the OP is on a standard contract where you aren't obliged to work for nothing. As an ex-senior manager I can tell you bonuses paid are always less than the value of unpaid work done, and it is always cheaper to keep people sweet by giving them time off as the work always gets done by somebody else anyway at no extra cost, that's how business works.
Reciprocation always works out in favour of the employer. Always. If you think otherwise do the sums again.

mitresize5

I'm a manager of a team of 12 developers.

I have to say if I was the OP's manager I'd facilitate it what every way I could, even by mucking in myself.

This is 2015 - you will get nothing out of a team if you treat them like it is 1950.

Its all about give and take, I've no problem letting the lads off for an hour or two for parent/teacher meeting, doctors appointments etc... and the odd Friday afternoon off as time in lieu.

On the other hand if we have a project deadline pressing, all of them, not most, not one or two of them, all of them will put in the effort to get it over the line i.e. 60+ hour weeks, weekend working etc ....

In my opinion there is no way that someone shouldn't be accommodated looking to go to a family wedding at 4 months notice

Lux23

I agree completely, it is terribly lazy management and something that could turn a good employee to a very unhappy one with an axe to grind.

LegacyUser

Thanks again to all who have made a contribution to this thread!

My reason for posting this topic was to get others views on whether my Manager's refusal was unreasonable. The responses (most of them!) have convinced me that I am not crazy for thinking that she was acting unfairly.

As some of you have pointed out - what I was hoping for was a little give and take. I just want to clarify that there are never any pay rises/bonuses where I am so its not like Management reward staff in that sense.

Another important point is that my company is genuinely short of staff - another colleague just handed in his notice a few days ago. Despite this, I think it's unreasonable that a Manager is basically preventing an employee from attending an important family occasion (with 4 months advance notice!).

A lot of staff members have commented about 'the silent rule' that days off are not allowed!! And the necessity therefore to just call in sick when a day off is genuinely required. It's crazy really!

What I've decided to do is approach a more senior manager on Tuesday to explain the situation and hope that he is more sympathetic. He appears to be more reasonable so hopefully there's something he can do to help me out. There is a HR dept, but they are located elsewhere and I don't know anyone there so it'd be more difficult to contact them to ask for help..

Either way, I will be going to this wedding - but would obviously much prefer to have approval in advance.

I've also decided that I will be leaving this place behind pretty soon and definitely should be out of there before the end of the summer (this issue has probably given me the kick I needed!) - and I'll be writing a very strong letter outlining my reasons for leaving..

I'll post back with any further developments!

Thanks again for all the very useful advice.

Whiplashy

Minniexx wrote: »

I'll be writing a very strong letter outlining my reasons for leaving..

Writing that letter will probably make you feel a whole lot better, but you might want to consider shredding if afterwards rather than sending it! You've made your decision to leave, and that your family comes first, which I totally agree with. There's no point in leaving on bad terms though. If you send that letter you'll have to leave the job off of your CV, and depending on how long you've been there that could look very bad. Also Ireland is a very small country and people talk! Don't shoot yourself in the foot! I'm currently looking for another job as I can't stand my manager, but I've been there for over 3 years so when I do resign she'll be getting a lovely letter about how sad I am to be going and how much I loved working with her

Paully D

Any update on this OP? Interested to hear how you've got on.

beauf

Don't write letters, they can come back to haunt you. Find a better job get a good reference and just move on.

Mongfinder General

beauf wrote: »

Don't write letters, they can come back to haunt you. Find a better job get a good reference and just move on.

True story. Say what needs to be said.

faceman

There is no need to write a letter and likely of no benefit. You *could* have a case for constructive dismissal so best to speak to someone in the area of employment law. Remember you don't have to raise this with an employer before doing it (hence why the letter is like likely a pointless exercise.)

beauf

Generally you get everyone else to put things in writing & email while avoiding doing the same. Just keep copies of it, especially electronic stuff which might be deleted, archived or you lose access.

The employer is not wrong by not allowing you leave. Its just a little mean spirited. So while its a big issue for you. In real terms its not. You could ask to take a half day, or work a short day instead.

beauf

Ronald Cynic wrote: »

One small point that is slightly off topic...

The OP mentioned that she sometimes puts in unpaid overtime. I would suggest that she never does this again. Management can't have it both ways, there has to be give and take, they are only taking.

There are ways to do this and ways not to do it. I would suggest not refusing, but just say unfortunately I have prior commitments at the time requested. But suggest them an alternative time, like a Saturday if they send you formal request. In that way you've never refused, and you have it in writing any extra time you've done, they've requested. Which is always handy. They often don't want it recorded. so will stop asking. That said its always useful to go beyond, and record it. If its not recorded its not remembered, and then as no value.

Streetwalker

I gave in asking for time off for things in my job. Pick up the phone and call in sick OP.

Wanderer78

beauf wrote: »

There are ways to do this and ways not to do it. I would suggest not refusing, but just say unfortunately I have prior commitments at the time requested. But suggest them an alternative time, like a Saturday if they send you formal request. In that way you've never refused, and you have it in writing any extra time you've done, they've requested. Which is always handy. They often don't want it recorded. so will stop asking. That said its always useful to go beyond, and record it. If its not recorded its not remembered, and then as no value.

even though this is very good advice, i just wouldnt do it. employers have too much power at the moment. give them an inch and all that. but thats just how i am. i use to refuse to do over time in my last job. they werent too happy about it at first but got over it after a while. they stopped asking me after a while. all worked out well but that was all during the boom. different times now.

Bobeagleburger

It's in the managers interest to try and accoomadate you. Unhappy employees are not productive.

If you're gonna ring in sick, make sure you have a cert!!

LegacyUser

Hi again,

Just posting a quick update - the wedding is in two weeks time and I still don't have any resolution unfortunately. What adds to the pressure is that my cousin has asked a few family members to perform some music (I'm a singer) at her wedding ceremony and the reception. This just intensifying the importance of the event for me.

I had considered raising the issue with a more senior manager but I got cold feet about this as I felt that it would place him in an awkward situation as he might not be able to interfer in an issue that should be dealt with at a more junior level. I also felt that the less said about the wedding and the less attention drawn to it - the better.

It looks like I'll have to have a sick note excusing me from work that day and maybe the day before aswell to make it more plausible. I hate doing this as I know it is wrong and very dishonest - but what alternative do I have?

I am determined to go to this wedding. I will be handing in my notice in mid August anyway so I definitely wouldn't miss the wedding for a job that I will be leaving quite soon anyway.

vetinari

Stick with the sick note approach. Definitely good to pad it by a day so it's not super obvious.

Since you're not out sick all the time, the manager won't be able to say anything.
You have people talking about warnings and worst case scenarios in this thread.
Realistically, if someone takes 2 days off sick in a one off, nothing is said.

It happens in our office all the time. Without a pre existing pattern of taking sick leave, people won't get challenged by management.

Neyite

xxMinniexx wrote: »

Hi again,

Just posting a quick update - the wedding is in two weeks time and I still don't have any resolution unfortunately. What adds to the pressure is that my cousin has asked a few family members to perform some music (I'm a singer) at her wedding ceremony and the reception. This just intensifying the importance of the event for me.

I had considered raising the issue with a more senior manager but I got cold feet about this as I felt that it would place him in an awkward situation as he might not be able to interfer in an issue that should be dealt with at a more junior level. I also felt that the less said about the wedding and the less attention drawn to it - the better.

It looks like I'll have to have a sick note excusing me from work that day and maybe the day before aswell to make it more plausible. I hate doing this as I know it is wrong and very dishonest - but what alternative do I have?

I am determined to go to this wedding. I will be handing in my notice in mid August anyway so I definitely wouldn't miss the wedding for a job that I will be leaving quite soon anyway.

What will make your sickie even more convincing is to take two or more days, rather than the one day. Paying for a GP consult and sick note adds to the authenticity, pick an illness that you've had before (so you can discuss it when someone in the office strikes up a convo about their bout with X) and choose something that cant be verified by a GP through a test. Eg. a migrane or bug they generally take you at your word, but for the likes of a kidney infection they'd test a urine sample.

Also follow the calling in sick procedure to the letter. If the policy is to ring and speak to a specific manager, then texting or emailing them or via a colleague is an immediate clue that you are pulling a fast one.

Put your Facebook or other social media on settings that ensure your colleagues or managers wont come across posts or pictures of you at a wedding, and don't land into work with a fancy manicure /spray tan in the days leading up to the wedding. If anything, lay off the makeup or bronzing powder in the few days before so you might look a bit peaky. Back in my irresponsible youth I used to wear a certain colour that made me look like death warmed up, either the days before or afterwards. I'd get a few sympathetic comments wondering if I was fit to come back at all.

You can tell I used to pull a sickie or two in the past, cant you? :P

rgmmg

Change your Facebook profile pick to an image of an Ambulance to enhance the ruse during the wedding celebrations. Good luck with it.

denlaw

How would this manager act if someone close to the OP had died suddenly...
Going to the top and no body is gonna stand in her way..