Refused a day off to attend family wedding. **Mod warning post 1**

Matt_Trakker

I had a very similar situation about a year ago.
I was refused a couple of extra days of Christmas, I'd told them before the annual leave deadlines that I'd be taking a week plus 2 owed days (having worked on 2 bank holidays).

Boss threw a hissy fit but I just laid down the law and told them I wasn't going to change my flight just because of their oversight, not my circus not my monkeys, as they say round these parts.

OP, it's just a job, take the day off and take the written warning. Sharing in your friends' special day is worth way more than some job.
Written warnings aren't worth the paper they're written on anyway, sure you need 2 of them before they can give you a proper one.
To think that they are just means you're already lost to world of corporate dingbats.

irish gent

I never again ask for certain dates off I go sick now because I did the right thing by asking the employer for certain dates off before In the past I was never sick never late and 20 yers in the job I was refused.. That Manager YOU have is crap just like mine ..

Mrs OBumble

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Written warnings aren't worth the paper they're written on anyway, sure you need 2 of them before they can give you a proper one.

Not necessarily true.

There are no legal requirements around number of warnings before action can be taken. The only requirement is that the company has a disciplinary policy and follows it.

eg I've worked in a place where proven stealing was followed by dismissal, no warning at all. This was fine because this policy was extremely well circulated.

In the OPs case, we don't know what their company's disciplinary procedure is, so cannot predict the outcome of whatever s/he does.

LegacyUser

" I was aware of the wedding for a long time before I requested the days leave, but I wasn't sure if I was invited and this is what caused the delay"

I was firmly on OP's side when I accepted this was a very close (if not immediate) family member's wedding, as the original post in the thread implies. But if you weren't even sure you'd be invited to the wedding it doesn't suggest the same kind of closeness which would make this worth losing or leaving a job over. I still think you should have been given the day off.

georgewickstaff

I find this sort of behaviour from 'managers' troubling.

1) When she said to "leave it with her" did she speak to the other 2 staff who had requested leave? It would tell us a lot about the manager if you could confirm if she made any attempts to really sort out the problem.

2) Every reasonable person on this forum would think that 4 months notice for 1 x day is ample. The usual crank element on here seem to be delighted that you didnt have the foresight to give them 12 months notice for a day off. Ignore them.

3) Taking a sick day is not the answer. I would approach the manager again and tell her that 4 months notice is absolutely ample. With all due respect you seem to a be a junior member of staff and not the CEO of the company. As other posters have said why can you not try and work out something with her - have you suggested an alternative solution to her?

4) You say she is not approachable and has a history of poor behaviour towards you. Can I ask why you are allowing her to do this? There are standards. "She is not approachable" as you are frightened of her. Stand up for yourself. I think you have to take ownership of this to a certain degree. You need to deal with this manager in a sensible manner and if you think her behaviour is incorrect or unfair then there are mechanisms to deal with this.

5) Ignore the nonsense about not showing your co-workers respect etc, respect in this company seems to be in very short supply. All the sensitive plants posting above must work in idyllic jobs. Lucky them.

I have come across managers like this over my career. Some of them enjoy playing God plain and simple. I bet she is the type who never takes a day off herself?

Good luck

LegacyUser

Thanks again for all the replies! I have gained a very interesting perspective on the issue through reading everyone's point of view.

I just want to clarify what I didn't explain very well initially. I mentioned that I had only been absent for 1 day in the past year. I should have said 1 unscheduled leave day. How my company works is that an email is circulated around the end of October/early November with an attached form asking staff to fill out their AL requests. It is required that all staff take 2 weeks together and then another 1 week (which still leaves AL days unaccounted for). Last year, I took these AL requirements (the sick day was in addition to this) - I approached the Manager twice or three times requesting an additional day or two here and there, but all these requests were denied - so I ended up carrying the extra AL days over to this year. I never minded being refused before as I had only given about 2-3 weeks notice and didn't require the time off for any important reason. However, this time is different. Through this, I have learnt that all AL requests, even just odd days here and there have to be requested back at the October/November stage..

Some of you stated that I should come up with a solution to the problem with my Manager. There are a few suggestions I could make on how my particular role could be covered that day, but to be honest, I don't feel that I can go down this avenue with my Manager. She has given me her answer and the impression that it is not open for discussion. TBH, I feel like I'm not in her good books now because I pressed her for the day off as it was an important day in my family. Unfortunately, due to the nature of my work, I am unable to work outside of the normal working hours so coming in early and leaving late in the lead up to the wedding is definitely not an option. I'm sorry I can't give a more detailed explanation of what my work involves, I don't want to risk being identified as this is quite a sensitive matter.

Again, I just want to re-iterate that I am not the sort of person that just does whatever they please no matter what rules are in place/what anyone says. I fully agree that the two people who are scheduled to be off that particular day are fully entitled to that day, before me of course, there's no doubt about that at all. However, I don't believe that me being off aswell would have nay negative impact for the company at all as the other two people out work in other sections of the company and one of them only works on a part-time basis anyway. Also, I want to emphasize that I do not agree with people pulling sickies, but I genuinely believe that I am being treated unfairly here and I'm thinking that this could be my only option. Prior to this situation arising, I knew that my Manager was not keen to provide AL (beyond the 2 weeks, plus 1 week discussed above), but despite this, I approached her to ask for the day off as this is the right thing to do. Granted, I didn't really believe that the Manager would refuse me the day off as I needed it to attend an important family occassion and I felt that 4 months notice would be sufficient in order to organise cover of my particular job.

On my first request for the day off when she ended the conversation by saying ''leave it with me..'' I never heard back from her and had to approach her a second time (a month later). She just said that ''the day is not free, sorry.'' In all honesty, if she had explained her efforts in sorting something out, and had tried to figure out a solution, but just couldn't arrange cover - I would be much more understanding and sympathetic to her situation. However, I don't think this is the case. And I would go as far to say that I've a feeling that she made no efforts to find a solution (but this is just my opinion). I feel sure that if that day was just a normal day (and the wedding did not exist) and I happened to be sick/have an emergency or other unforseen event which prevented me from going into work that day - I feel pretty sure the company would operate just fine (but that is just my honest opinion again). I genuinely believe that my colleagues would not be put under any unfair pressure by me being absent for one day.

Other staff members have commented on how difficult it is to obtain AL. They have often stated that people are being refused a day here and there, but when someone rings in sick, there are never any major implications and everything operates as normal..

Regarding the bad behaviour from my Manager - I don't want to paint her in the wrong light. Yes - I think some of her actions/behaviour is bad-mannered and not very respectful, but I definitely wouldn't consider it as bullying or anything massively serious..

Again, I realize that I should have requested the days AL last October/November and I have only myself to blame for that. But at the same time, I find it hard to accept that any reasonable Manager requires 8-9 months notice of a staff member requiring a day off. In all honestly, I believed that 4 months notice would be plenty (although the 8/9 months clearly would have been better).

Finally, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, but I just thought that since I do my job so well (never any issues), pick up new skills fast, have only been out sick for 1 day and often go beyond the specs of my role - I was just hoping that there might be a bit of give and take involved here. Yes, I should have requested the days AL back in October/November (and I have learned my lesson!), but my Manager could explain to me that in future, I should request AL at the very earliest opportunity but at the same time find some way of covering my job for that particular day given that it is clearly so important to me..

georgewickstaff

There is no point telling the readers of boards.ie this so vehemently.

Use what you wrote above talk to your manager or HR.

I think you have received plenty of advice. It is now either time to front up or work the day. Ball is in your court. Not speaking to her again results in taking a sick day or working.

You seem to want the board to tell you to phone in sick?

_Kaiser_

As a manager myself with a team I generally try my best to accommodate any leave requests that are made if possible, but at the same time the team realise that work still has to be done and cover provided so if it's not possible there's no issue either.

I see my role as much as being about supporting my team as managing them and as such I have an open door policy and try to be as open and transparent as possible and encourage them to do the same. I'd rather someone come to me with an issue so we can try and resolve it than sit there stewing and becoming resentful (aside from the personal effect, the impact on the rest of the team can't be discounted either).

Works well for me/us. The team buys in to what we're doing and often goes above and beyond on their own accord as a result. Accommodating the occasional leave request is just giving that effort back really - but as above, people recognize that on the occasions this isn't possible they just have to accept it as well.

amen

Op,

I have no advice for you but the minimum legal holiday entitlement in Ireland is 20 days. If you are only allowed to take 3 weeks a year what happens to the other 5 days ? Are you carrying them on a yearly basis ? Does someone with 5 years service have an extra 25 days ?

Are you paid them at the end of the year ?

Does everyone in your company have to request holidays 8-9 months in advance or is it just your section ? what does your employee handbook say in relation to holiday requests ?

cmickdaly

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As a manager myself with a team I generally try my best to accommodate any leave requests that are made if possible, but at the same time the team realise that work still has to be done and cover provided so if it's not possible there's no issue either.

I see my role as much as being about supporting my team as managing them and as such I have an open door policy and try to be as open and transparent as possible and encourage them to do the same. I'd rather someone come to me with an issue so we can try and resolve it than sit there stewing and becoming resentful (aside from the personal effect, the impact on the rest of the team can't be discounted either).

Works well for me/us. The team buys in to what we're doing and often goes above and beyond on their own accord as a result. Accommodating the occasional leave request is just giving that effort back really - but as above, people recognize that on the occasions this isn't possible they just have to accept it as well.

All very fair Kaiser and to be commended but i think in this situation you would do the sensible thing. I know a manager in a company and I explained the situation to them and he said the company manager was out of order in the applying the spirit and letter of the company policy.I worked in the private sector a long long time ago and this point blank bullet refusal just didn't happen

Emsloe

Minniexx wrote: »

....But at the same time, I find it hard to accept that any reasonable Manager requires 8-9 months notice of a staff member requiring a day off. In all honestly, I believed that 4 months notice would be plenty...

Your manager doesn't require 8-9 months notice - there is a first come first served system in place and you didn't get there first! That system is generally the fairest because everyone (naturally) thinks their annual leave is the most important thing in ever and the only way to allocate it is by giving preference to whoever asks first. Managers work around sickness absence because they have no choice.

If your whole team has an issue with the policy then perhaps raise it at a team meeting, but I'd be surprised if the manager just pulled this policy out of the sky. Most likely it's the same across the company.

Full Marx

OP you seem to work for a dump, no job I have ever had were so unreasonable about time off.

MagicMarker

There is simply no job in this world that can't make accommodations to allow one day's leave booked 4 months in advance.

Tenger

MagicMarker wrote: »

There is simply no job in this world that can't make accommodations to allow one day's leave booked 4 months in advance.

Its not the job at fault, it the mgmt of the human resources.
My own job has been currently booking my leave for Winter 2015. So now, in May I have already selected my preferred holidays (I get 3 weeks) I have selected 5 weeks (Oct, Dec, Jan 2016, March 2016, April 2016) However I will not know which 3 weeks I get until about August.

My job also requires me to make requests re-days off 6-8 weeks in advance, with no knowledge of them being given until 3 weeks before the day. (I get a 28 day roster with 100% shift work, no pattern.)

duploelabs

MagicMarker wrote: »

There is simply no job in this world that can't make accommodations to allow one day's leave booked 4 months in advance.

Except when you're self employed

arayess

is there somebody like a senior manager or HR to approach?

If not call in sick go to the wedding.
However to back yourself up - get a doctors note - even if it's only the 1 day you miss.
legally an employers options are tied when you've a doctors note.

f8ck them - you only get one life

Nody

arayess wrote: »

is there somebody like a senior manager or HR to approach?

If not call in sick go to the wedding.
However to back yourself up - get a doctors note - even if it's only the 1 day you miss.
legally an employers options are tied when you've a doctors note.

f8ck them - you only get one life

Not they are not and you can get fired for certified sick leave as well.

lanciadub

2 words

FORCE MAJOURE

daheff

arayess wrote: »

is there somebody like a senior manager or HR to approach?

good advice

arayess wrote: »

However to back yourself up - get a doctors note - even if it's only the 1 day you miss.

good advice

arayess wrote: »

legally an employers options are tied when you've a doctors note.

bad advice

Not turning up for work can be a sackable offence. A Doctors note is just a reason why.

arayess

daheff wrote: »

good advice
good advice
bad advice

Not turning up for work can be a sackable offence. A Doctors note is just a reason why.

how can they sack a person for being sick
If the doctor says they are sick - they are sick and that cannot be argued against. They'd be sued if they sacked a person on certified sick leave.

I worked in an office once where the manager decided the more mature people deserved time off in the summer and the young lad could take theirs in spring/ autumn. He felt he was teaching the young lads the hard facts of life.
He was a cnut.

Flippyfloppy

arayess wrote: »

how can they sack a person for being sick
If the doctor says they are sick - they are sick and that cannot be argued against. They'd be sued if they sacked a person on certified sick leave.

It's not a well known fact but surprisingly there's nothing legal about certified sick leave.

eisenberg1

arayess wrote: »

how can they sack a person for being sick
If the doctor says they are sick - they are sick and that cannot be argued against. They'd be sued if they sacked a person on certified sick leave.

I worked in an office once where the manager decided the more mature people deserved time off in the summer and the young lad could take theirs in spring/ autumn. He felt he was teaching the young lads the hard facts of life.
He was a cnut.

For sure the best thing is speak to HR and try and resolve, than gtfo out if you can, it sounds like an awful place to work.

I mean, if you want to take a days hols to attend a funeral of a close relative, how can you give more than a couple of days notice?

Nody

arayess wrote: »

how can they sack a person for being sick
If the doctor says they are sick - they are sick and that cannot be argued against. They'd be sued if they sacked a person on certified sick leave.

Nope; they simply need to show that the person could not fulfill their duties at work due to the time they were taking off. Quoting Citizen information directly:

If illness or injury is at issue, it is often assumed that you cannot be dismissed fairly while on certified sick leave from your work. However, this is not true. It is difficult to lay down hard and fast rules to apply to these cases as each will be treated on its own merits. Issues such as length of service, previous record and the importance of the job will vary and will have to be taken into account. These types of claim are often divided into short-term and long-term absences.

Dismissal related to short-term illness generally occurs where you have a medical problem that results in frequent absences for short periods from the workplace. Assuming that the genuine nature of your problem was not in question, your employer will have to show that a pattern of absence exists, that it is causing problems, that the problem is unlikely to get better and that you have been warned that dismissal is likely.

In a case of a long-term absence, however, your employer will be expected to obtain detailed medical evidence that an early return to work is unlikely. There is no set period of absence by which it can be said that a dismissal will or will not be considered reasonable. Obviously, the longer the absence, the easier it is for your employer to show that it is causing genuine difficulty in terms of the organisation of the workplace.

Miaireland

A sick note explains an absence it does not excuse it.

I am afraid that you will have to suck this one up. You did not request the day off soon enough. You manager seems to have to have a certain amount of people working at the time.

You mention other people in other sections but this is really not relevent.

You manager may not be aware how close you are to your cousin. You could try going over that managers head but they may not be willing to overide you manager for a wedding as this could cause conflict in the team.

bottlebrush

OP, has there ever been a situation in the past where, in addition to two people being on leave as scheduled, the need has arisen for a third person to be off e.g. somebody's parent/close family member died and they needed to be off for the funeral.
If so, how did the office manage?

daheff

arayess wrote: »

how can they sack a person for being sick
If the doctor says they are sick - they are sick and that cannot be argued against. They'd be sued if they sacked a person on certified sick leave.

yes they could well be sacked for not doing the job. As pointed out by other posters, a sicknote is an reason why you werent there, but doesnt excuse it. that is up to the contract you've signed (allowances for absence due to illness). In all likelihood a dismissal due to illness is not going to happen unless the company can prove you arent sick.

arayess wrote: »

I worked in an office once where the manager decided the more mature people deserved time off in the summer and the young lad could take theirs in spring/ autumn. He felt he was teaching the young lads the hard facts of life.
He was a cnut.

you get managers like this everywhere. However what he may have been doing is understanding that the older members of staff had kids out of school that needed minding/ only times they could bring them on holidays was during school holidays.

that or as you say

arayess wrote: »

He was a cnut.

Shelflife

MagicMarker wrote: »

There is simply no job in this world that can't make accommodations to allow one day's leave booked 4 months in advance.

Sorry but this simply isnt true, If in a small business a number of friends wanted to go to a wedding you cant give them all the day off regardless of how far in advance they ask for it.

We have a one person a day off rule,some people plan their holidays in Jan, some as they go through the year. We have on occasion allowed 2 people off on the same day only for the inevitable to happen and someone to phone in sick (genuine) which results in a 14hr day for me and my wife.

In theory 4 months notice should be more then enough to plan for , but if you only have a set number of trained staff you simply cant let them all off on the one day.

Sometimes its down to bad luck, we cant always get what we want in life and sometimes you just have to suck it up.

I wouldnt advise a sickie OP, it will be so obvious and will put you in the bad books.

imitation

Gotta say, in my books unless there is something exceptional on that day, would expect a day of AL to be a certainty with 4 weeks notice. I wouldn't be apologising op or making excuses for the manager, I would view it as a fundamental lack of respect that you cant get a day of leave for an important day like that. It would probably put me off a job more than a pay cut or other issues.

Cyrus

lanciadub wrote: »

2 words

FORCE MAJOURE

Two more

Doesn't apply

lanciadub

Cyrus wrote: »

Two more

Doesn't apply

can be adapted quite easily ...