Refused a day off to attend family wedding. **Mod warning post 1**

Milly33

Kinda agree you should have asked for it off the minute you knew about it.. As such you don't really have a leg to stand on unless you take it higher

Cyrus

QuinDixie wrote: »

Can you stick up material/links to back up your claims.

you haven't provided any to back up yours yet

Neyite

You are entitled to annual leave, but its up to your employer when and how you can take it, not you I'm afraid. In every place I've ever worked its a first come, first served basis. You feel that people who booked last November should be bumped off the list so you can attend a wedding. And in employment handbooks 'family' is usually defined as parents, siblings, grandparents and children. Aunts and uncles, cousins, no matter how close you are to them, dont fall under this definition for bereavement leave for example, so they would hardly consider a wedding of a cousin a family wedding.

Are you really that close to your cousin though? Because you'd have heard about the wedding long before now as traditional weddings need to be booked at least a year or so in advance and even if it were a quickly arranged, low key one, they would have had to give 3 months notice to the HSE to book their day, and you would have been told at least verbally if you were on the guest list or not long before the invites were decided.

I don't agree with the posts that slag off your manager - when she said to leave it with her, it sounds like she did maybe approach those who already had booked leave to see if they were willing to cancel theirs, or went to their boss to see if they could make an exception for you. It looks like they tried to find a way to accommodate you and couldn't.

Now, how to go to the wedding?

If you want to cause potential harm to your career prospects in a company by being 'sick' on the day, its entirely up to you to risk it or not. I will say though, that those staff who think they can pull a swift one and the manager cant do anything about a certified day, they are right, it might be easier to let a fake sicky slide, but don't fool yourself that it will ever be forgotten just because its not on a file somewhere. And at some point, they are likely to find out - either through subsequent chats with your colleagues or you getting tagged on facebook, or someone attending the wedding that knows your boss.

And equally that manager doesn't have to do anything for you ever again - like, bother to select you for interesting projects that might enhance your CV, or put you forward for a promotion or training course or an interesting new department. So you need to weigh up this potential long term outcome with the short term gain of a day off. And if you do go down that route, FFS, if you are female, dont go into work the day before your sicky with your nails and fake tan done- dead giveaway!!

I'm not being sanctimonious by the way - I've pulled sickies in the past, but only in jobs that I wasn't invested in as career progression if you know what I mean. And I've seen people take the piss with stuff like this, then wonder why their colleagues are getting all the nice opportunities and they are not. Managers have more than one way of skinning a cat.

So that leaves other options that maybe your bosses might be happy to accommodate, provided you approach them nicely without giving off a vibe of entitlement- it is up to them at the end of the day and getting moody or stroppy wont go in your favour. Maybe swap shifts with a colleague. Work overtime before or after the day. Approach the others who have the day off and see if they are willing to move their leave - but be sure to return the favour! Or working a half day, or coming in extra early?

Hope you find a solution.

Nody

//MOD

And on that note we'll close the thread. OP has not posted since the original question and has been given a lot of advice (inc. conflicting advice!) on what they can potentially do and don't do. It is now up to the OP to decide what they are comfortable with and take it from there.

OP; if you wish to post the final outcome in this thread please feel free to PM me on a throw away account and I'll unlock the post for you to respond to it all but for now the discussion is going in circles and has become quite heated inc. cards a few times so it's time for it to rest a bit.

//MOD

Nody

//MOD

Opened on request of OP; please don't pull it further into a should do / won't do debate etc. or it will risk being locked up again.

//MOD

LegacyUser

Hi everyone! OP here. First of all, I want to thank all of you for taking the time to post your opinions and advice. I really appreciate it, and it has really helped me to see both sides of the argument.

A lot of you made suggestions on how I could reach a compromise with my Manager, such as working up the time either before/or after the event. Unfortunately in my particular role, this is not possible as it is a customer-service related job and my work is dependent on customers coming in, and therefore - it would not be an option to offer to work outside of normal business hours.

Some of you made the point that I should have requested the date far earlier than I did. You are right about that - and I have learned a very important lesson. I was aware of the wedding for a long time before I requested the days leave, but I wasn't sure if I was invited and this is what caused the delay. In hindsight, I should have requested the day off regardless, and that way this problem would not have arisen. Again, lesson learned!

I just want to state that I did not intend to bad-mouth my Manager in any way. I accept that she also has her job to do and the difficulties involved in managing staff. It's certainly not easy! Although, the Manager is not well-liked by staff whereas, a previous manager was. IMO I got the vibe that the Manager didn't want the hassle of trying to figure a replacement out for that day (it's not a team-based role so its not like the other team members would be picking up the slack). I accept that there are two people out already (and fully accept that they should be prioritised) but at the same time, I don't believe that my absence would result in the company falling apart on that particular day. There is nothing significant/out of the ordinary happening on that particular day which requires me to be there. My particular role is pretty hectic on Fridays which is the day the wedding is on (significantly more so than on other days), but other areas of the business are significantly quieter. The other staff member who can do my job works in the quieter area - although he is not as competent/confident doing my job and friends from work have surmised that maybe this is why she doesn't want me to be absent that day..

Others suggested that I have a chat with my Manager about how we could reach a solution and talk to her about how she deals with unforseen absences of staff. This would be an absolute no no in my situation. My Manager is not a very approachable person and I would even go as far to say can be quite bad-mannered at times. Eg. I was once asked to sign a document with her - I asked her if she had a pen - she picked up a pen and threw it across the table to me. No big deal I suppose, just bad manners really. I have a number of other examples of similar behaviour.

My stance is that I do my job very well (this Manager has complimented me a number of times on my ability to do the job) - other staff had previously been put in the role and things did not work out and either the Manager or them requested to leave it. I am always in work (even when feeling unwell), on time, keep to tight deadlines, worked over-time where necessary (un-paid) and there are never any issues with my work or have given my Manager any reason to dislike me - I suppose that I was hoping that my Manager would find some way of facilitating me.

Where I stand now is that I am desperate to go to this wedding. I feel that I will always regret it if I don't attend. I enjoy my job and get along well with other staff there. However, the salary is very low (very little over minimum wage) and also, I think junior staff members are not treated very well. If this situation arose for a senior member of staff, I highly doubt there would be any issue.. TBH, for the reasons stated above, I don't see myself making my career here and am keen to access a different area of work anyway. Although, I was hoping that I would have another job before leaving my present job..

I feel my options now are as follows:

1.) To go above my Manager's head and deal with the aftermath that this could cause.

2.) To ring in sick for a day or two leading up to the wedding and get a sick note from my Doctor.

3.) To hand in my notice altogether - But as a result of this situation, I have already started looking for other jobs so who knows, I could be lucky and something better could come up.

Thanks again for all the input - very much appreciated!

Ronald Cynic

In the current financial climate I would not endanger my job to go to a wedding. I would just make arrangements to go straight from work and make the most of the evening. Not ideal but better than nothing.

If you try to be clever about it by pulling a sickie or going over your manager's head you risk having your card marked and being on her s**t list for the rest of your employment there. If you feel really strongly enough about the situation then now is the time to start looking about for a new job. Maybe a new employer would honour your existing commitment to attend the wedding. Either way don't do something out of frustration that you might regret later.

My 2c.

q2ice

Is there any possibility of a half day? Sometimes half days are granted where full days are not.

Any possibility of having flexi-time - just for the day. You could start and leave earlier than normal.

faceman

I'm late to the table here but I would like to offer my opinion in good faith. First off, full disclosed. By day, I work in senior management in a high profile multinational. I've worked in management for over 15 years.

Different companies have different rules for annual leave but in all my years of managing, training managers and coaching leaders I've rarely found a valid excuse for not granting leave, let alone a day's leave.

With all due respect, you're not the CEO or the CFO. If the company can't cope with your absense then your management have failed. God forbid, what would happen if you were absent from work due to an accident or illness.

Without being flippant, find a new job with a better manager. Easier said than done granted but long term you aren't in the right place.

But for your immediate predicament you need a solution. Your manager can't be relied upon finding that solution because by if you don't get the day off then it doesn't upset the status quo. Therefore you will have to find the solution

Start by talking to colleagues who cover you to see who can manage your responsibilities while you're away. Then take your proposed solution to your manager. Be positive and constructive throughout.

Offer contingincy and risk advice.

The suggestion of a sick day isn't as bad as it sounds but should only be used as a last resort. Be warned though that it won't carry well. But alas, family is more important than work.

Hopefully you find an amicable solution. Please post back with how it goes.

Reati

faceman wrote: »

in all my years of managing, training managers and coaching leaders I've rarely found a valid excuse for not granting leave, let alone a day's leave.

Absolutely. I've yet in my time in long time in a large multinational seen some get refused a days leave with that much notice unless the manager had a personal issue with the worker. I've seen people take leave with a days notice sometimes. So unless the company is actually going to bleed out and die without you for the day, then something is wrong with your managers attitude towards you.

Ignore the comments about not going around or over your managers head. If you're working in a large corporation, and there is nothing happening on that day that you absolutely need to be there for then go to HR. Large companies have HR departments for this exact reason.

Just flicked through this thread. Jaysus it's petty (the situation being discussed, that is, not the thread itself).

If I were the OP I'd be going two different places: 1) Above my manager, and 2) to the wedding.

Go above her and complain to anyone and everyone that'll listen. Make a written complaint (on company time, not in your own time, as it's a work matter).

Appeal it the highest/busiest person in the company. It'll go one of two ways. They'll agree you should get the day off and then you go to the wedding.

Or they side with the manager and tell you you can not have the day off. And then you go to the wedding.

What are they gonna do? Sack you for missing a day?

At most you'll get a written warning and who really cares about that? If the company side with her then it sounds like a fairly miserable place to be. I'd be putting in the bare minimum effort and keeping an eye out for work elsewhere.



Missing a day and they're making an issue out of it. Must be nothing else going on in there at all. Tell her you've things to be doing and you're going to the wedding regardless. I wouldn't even try to hide it. As far as they're concerned you're sick that morning, and if you happen to feel better an hour after ringing in sick and decide to go to the wedding, who are they to get involved.

Fair play to you, OP. You're a better man than me for putting up with tripe like that. I'd be out the door by now. Life's too short.

Wanderer78

id go to the wedding, simple as. ive never allowed a refusal of time off to allow me to not go to something i really wanted to. of course there are repercussions for this but i never cared. ive no regrets either and most of my time off went to things that are no where near as important as a family wedding. never allow people to stand in your way of doing the things you wanna do in life with the people that are important to you. lifes too short

Emsloe

Serious question to those advocating making a complaint - what exactly is the OP going to complain about? That a rule is being applied fairly and consistently but she feels she should be treated more fairly than others? That she's aware of the policy regarding booking leave, applied late and then didn't get it....in line with the rules of which she is aware? Companies have HR policies, including relating to leave, for exactly this reason.

It's true the place won't fall down without her if she got the day off but that's not the point. Bending policies can set a precedent and then you hear 'but Minnie got that day off for that wedding in 2015' used as leverage by others who want leave at short notice for non-emergencies.

As a manager myself I find the tone of some of the posts disappointing, as if the OP's manager is blocking the leave just to be a crank. She has a team and a set of policies that the OP chose not to abide by...and now the OP is demanding special treatment to compensate. Maybe a workable solution will be found to suit them all, but branding the manager as some ogre for applying a policy she no doubt inherited is really disheartening.

With leave everyone thinks their event/holiday is more important than everyone else's and this is a lesson for the OP that in a team environment hers isn't.

Cyrus

Yes go enjoy the wedding, don't adhere to the the rules that you were aware of and pull a sicky if going over your bosses head or her bosses head doesn't yield the result you want ,

All excellent advice

I look forward to the next thread looking for advice on job hunting especially as you will have no decent reference from your old job if you follow some of the advice on here.

Your only hope is to come to some arrangement with your manager, anything else isn't going to serve you well .

Robyn_14

Maybe the place won't fall down without the Op around but it absolutely astounds me that people here think it's acceptable to leave their teammates or colleagues stressed out if it's tight on the ground because of their absence.
It is not your right to be given AL if others are off and cover is needed, it is also symbolic of the state of this country that anyone thinks it's fine to 'go sick' just because you don't get what you want, and to be honest, if I knew my team was stuck as a result of my absence, I wouldn't particularly enjoy my day off anyway.
And the OP has said she didn't put in for the day because she didn't know if she was invited, that's hardly a close friend although to be fair I don't know the facts.
Get a new job or get over it would be my opinion.

Wanderer78

worded wrote: »

gastro enteritis

actually got this before. was well 'clear' after it. think i lost half a stone in a few days

worded

Cyrus wrote: »

Yes go enjoy the wedding, don't adhere to the the rules that you were aware of and pull a sicky if going over your bosses head or her bosses head doesn't yield the result you want ,

All excellent advice

I look forward to the next thread looking for advice on job hunting especially as you will have no decent reference from your old job if you follow some of the advice on here.

Your only hope is to come to some arrangement with your manager, anything else isn't going to serve you well .

Professional sicky with a docs note. Your only man.

Heat_Wave

Life is far too short for this.

Go to the wedding and enjoy every minute of it.

And start looking for another job in the meantime, the one you are in sounds appalling.

Tigger

Wanderer78 wrote: »

<deleted>

the employer agrees to employ the employee the employee agrees to be employed
this contract is then set out with rules the employer doesn't pick and choose what days they offer employment and similarly the employee doesn't pick and choose what days to work

a sickie is taking time off because you are sick not because you think "life is too short for rules"

Reati

Robyn_14 wrote: »

Maybe the place won't fall down without the Op around but it absolutely astounds me that people here think it's acceptable to leave their teammates or colleagues stressed out if it's tight on the ground because of their absence.

Some ridiculous posts in this thread. There is 3 things that really irk me in this thread.

1. Let's stop with the "sense of entitlement" nonsense. Actually, let's take the reason for the AL request out of the picture. The OP doesn't have to justify why they want AL to you or their employer. That's not a factor in this. The OP asked for a day, 1 DAY, off with 4 months notice. I find it hard, after many many years in the private sector, that any manager can say to my face this is an unacceptable ask. Given that the OP claims they never missed a day in over a year bar one sick day. (Does that mean they have a year of AL to use still?)

2. The assertion the OP is letting the team down by having a day off. What kind of manager allows a team to be in a place where one member of the team missing on a single day that the whole team is going to fall apart or be so stressed out they can't cope again with 4 months notice. Seriously, think about how badly run a team in that position must be. That's a team that's doomed to failure in my experience.

3. To all the "managers" in the post saying "workers" are not entitled to AL whenever you want. I actually agree and it's a fair point. Indeed if the OP turned up tomorrow and said I want Friday off, I can easily see the argument to say no. But are you really telling me 4 months notice for a day of AL is unreasonable. Again, think about what your saying. If you think that is an unfair ask, I pray to the gods I never have a manager like you.

OP - I'm not sure the kind of work you do, but unless you physically need to be in the Office to get your work done and it's time dependent (like dealing with customers on the day) you could also try discussing doing a few extra hours in the week to hit your deadlines but without more context to your role, it's kind of hard to give you better advice. Also, another factor around the day you've asked off that might play into this is if you have AL planned around the same time?

titan18

Faking being sick is bad advice, considering information provided. Unless you can manage to stay out of all photos or videos of the day (even background of photos) and know that no one there knows your manager, you can easily be caught. You don't need to be tagged in Facebook photos to be spotted in them. You'd have no grounds to stand on in that case, saying you're sick and being seen at a wedding, lying to your manager and company. Not a good idea imo.

Wanderer78

worded wrote: »

It's an excellent tried and tested sicky reason
Works every time

no no, i actually got it. rough few weeks to be honest

worded

Gastro - genuine or not. Good reason to get off work

Wanderer78

Robyn_14 wrote: »

teammates

dont mind that team work crap. thats just a gimmick to make you feel guilty. if the company is good at what it does, it should be well balanced and able to take an absence here and there. illness is just a part of life. people do actually get sick from time to time. theres a major problem if a company cannot take a single absence for a day. its actually very sad to see that people dont actually see all the propaganda and crap employers sproat just to make people work harder, faster and longer hours. big companies can take considerable hits in absenteeism if they are well balanced and well managed.

Kirk Van Houten

Wanderer78 wrote:

dont mind that team work crap. thats just a gimmick to make you feel guilty. if the company is good at what it does, it should be well balanced and able to take an absence here and there. illness is just a part of life. people do actually get sick from time to time. theres a major problem if a company cannot take a single absence for a day. its actually very sad to see that people dont actually see all the propaganda and crap employers sproat just to make people work harder, faster and longer hours. big companies can take considerable hits in absenteeism if they are well balanced and well managed.

Yeah its also one of the reasons they can replace staff with little impact as well.
As pointed out previously unless the OP is intent on leaving his current role or has little plan for promotion then a sickie is a bad idea.

Tenger

faceman wrote: »

....
..........By day, I work in senior management in a high profile multinational. I've worked in management for over 15 years.........

Offer contingincy and risk advice.

The suggestion of a sick day isn't as bad as it sounds but should only be used as a last resort. Be warned though that it won't carry well. But alas, family is more important than work.

Hopefully you find an amicable solution. Please post back with how it goes.

Im going to be awkward here and use my previous career in Aer Lingus shift work as an example of bad mgmt.
-You were not permitted to get days off for personal occasions unless you used 1 of your 3 annual priority days......which had to be booked 8-10 weeks in advance.
-Force Majuere was the only way to get time off at short notice..... swopping rosters was/is left in the hands of the employee.
-Medical appointments are grudgely given IF you have a doctors note.
-You were often worked up till midnight on Sunday before your week off.
-You were often worked 4 weeks hours in 3 weeks when you had a week of leave in a month.

Nody

//MOD

I've just had to spend the last 20 min deleting over half the replies since I reopened the thread because people can't adhere to basic boards policies; since it appears to be that hard let me clarify the rules for you:
1) Help the OP
2) Don't go name calling the manager
3) Don't drag the thread off topic

Do any of the above and you'll be looking at a 3 day or longer ban going forward.

//MOD

cmickdaly

op has to suck it up and start looking for a job elsewhere. It's a bad way to treat a worker. Don't pull a sickie unless you have a doctors note and even then b careful.

daUbiq

Minniexx wrote: »

Hi everyone! OP here. First of all, I want to thank all of you for taking the time to post your opinions and advice. I really appreciate it, and it has really helped me to see both sides of the argument.

A lot of you made suggestions on how I could

reach a compromise with my Manager, such as working up the time either before/or after the event. Unfortunately in my particular role, this is not possible as it is a customer-service related job and my work is dependent on customers coming in, and therefore - it would not be an option to offer to work outside of normal business hours.

Some of you made the point that I should have requested the date far earlier than I did. You are right about that - and I have learned a very important lesson. I was aware of the wedding for a long time before I requested the days leave, but I wasn't sure if I was invited and this is what caused the delay. In hindsight, I should have requested the day off regardless, and that way this problem would not have arisen. Again, lesson learned!

I just want to state that I did not intend to bad-mouth my Manager in any way. I accept that she also has her job to do and the difficulties involved in managing staff. It's certainly not easy! Although, the Manager is not well-liked by staff whereas, a previous manager was. IMO I got the vibe that the Manager didn't want the hassle of trying to figure a replacement out for that day (it's not a team-based role so its not like the other team members would be picking up the slack). I accept that there are two people out already (and fully accept that they should be prioritised) but at the same time, I don't believe that my absence would result in the company falling apart on that particular day. There is nothing significant/out of the ordinary happening on that particular day which requires me to be there. My particular role is pretty hectic on Fridays which is the day the wedding is on (significantly more so than on other days), but other areas of the business are significantly quieter. The other staff member who can do my job works in the quieter area - although he is not as competent/confident doing my job and friends from work have surmised that maybe this is why she doesn't want me to be absent that day..

Others suggested that I have a chat with my Manager about how we could reach a solution and talk to her about how she deals with unforseen absences of staff. This would be an absolute no no in my situation. My Manager is not a very approachable person and I would even go as far to say can be quite bad-mannered at times. Eg. I was once asked to sign a document with her - I asked her if she had a pen - she picked up a pen and threw it across the table to me. No big deal I suppose, just bad manners really. I have a number of other examples of similar behaviour.

My stance is that I do my job very well (this Manager has complimented me a number of times on my ability to do the job) - other staff had previously been put in the role and things did not work out and either the Manager or them requested to leave it. I am always in work (even when feeling unwell), on time, keep to tight deadlines, worked over-time where necessary (un-paid) and there are never any issues with my work or have given my Manager any reason to dislike me - I suppose that I was hoping that my Manager would find some way of facilitating me.

Where I stand now is that I am desperate to go to this wedding. I feel that I will always regret it if I don't attend. I enjoy my job and get along well with other staff there. However, the salary is very low (very little over minimum wage) and also, I think junior staff members are not treated very well. If this situation arose for a senior member of staff, I highly doubt there would be any issue.. TBH, for the reasons stated above, I don't see myself making my career here and am keen to access a different area of work anyway. Although, I was hoping that I would have another job before leaving my present job..

I feel my options now are as follows:

1.) To go above my Manager's head and deal with the aftermath that this could cause.

2.) To ring in sick for a day or two leading up to the wedding and get a sick note from my Doctor.

3.) To hand in my notice altogether - But as a result of this situation, I have already started looking for other jobs so who knows, I could be lucky and something better could come up.

Thanks again for all the input - very much appreciated!

All 3 sound good. A months notice followed by a trip upstairs to complain about unpleasant manager and then a few days sickness caused by unpleasant manager.

_Brian

Glad to hear OP is looking for other work. There are plenty of good managers out there who appreciate employees.
I will add though that having a bad manager is no reason to become a bad employee.

I see I got called out earlier for using the term "worker". I meant no disrespect at all, I would more often use the term employee, either way I meant no disrespect.

No matter what your position I would urge people to think career rather than job, making rash actions and bringing yourself to attention in the wrong manner can have long lasting repercussions. You could be in a great company under a bad manager, rather than become a bad employee as a result I'd say you'd be better getting out from under a bad manager, with either internal or external moves.