Allergic to Work

Mesrine65

poa wrote: »

I am not a Grand Master, nor have I ever been. Please feel free to backup your claim with a quote showing I claimed to be?

I was convicted of drink driving in England in 2000. I do not have a criminal record in Ireland.

"As a Master Mason I am allowed to visit any Masonic lodge in Ireland (both in the North and Republic)."

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99441868&postcount=60

poa

A Master Mason and Grand Master are not the same thing.

(The Grand Master is top Mason in the country, the Worshipful Master is the top Mason in a lodge).

I have been neither GM nor WM, like I said. I am a MM.

Samaris

poa wrote: »

I suppose I could sell my apartment and live off that cash well for 10 years, but the system says I can have dole; so why not take it? Because its morally wrong to do so?

Actually, the system does not say you can have dole. The system gives a support net for those in serious need. Abusing the system, taking from those that need it, is you -getting away with it-, not taking what you're entitled to.

poa wrote: »

Raging over dole spongers affects who ultimately? The dole head doesn't give a fk. The only one getting worked up and suffering is the worker; so why bother? To validate oneself as morally right, the better man? I don't care for all that.

It doesn't particularly help those that are on it because of need and day after day see opinions from others that they're worthless scum for it. Because here you are semi-validating the view that those on the dole are scroungers. Particularly by being kinda self-satisfied about it all.

poa wrote: »

OK, you win; workers are the better men, dole spongers like me are scum. Its just a label you see, which changes nothing in reality.

Not for you, but for those who do feel it when there's a barrage of undiscriminating hate for people that need social welfare.

Mesrine65

poa wrote: »

A Master Mason and Grand Master are not the same thing.

(The Grand Master is top Mason in the country, the Worshipful Master is the top Mason in a lodge).

I have been neither GM nor WM, like I said. I am a MM.

You're a master something all right

jimgoose

poa wrote: »

A Master Mason and Grand Master are not the same thing.

(The Grand Master is top Mason in the country, the Worshipful Master is the top Mason in a lodge).

I have been neither GM nor WM, like I said. I am a MM.

It strikes me as more than a little odd that a Master Mason doesn't bother his arse working?

maudgonner

Mesrine65 wrote: »

You're a master something all right

Baiter?

poa

jimgoose wrote: »

It strikes me as more than a little odd that a Master Mason doesn't bother his arse working?

About 50% of my lodge are retired MM's and don't work.

We have unemployed and employed members, it's not a criterion of membership.

A few millionaires that don't need to work as well. I wouldn't call them retired, nor unemployed; as they have some business interests.

What one does for a living (or doesn't) makes no difference; all Masons are treated the same regardless. A dustman has the same status as a judge etc.

jimgoose

poa wrote: »

About 50% of my lodge are retired MM's and don't work.

We have unemployed and employed members, it's not a criterion of membership.

A few millionaires that don't need to work as well. I wouldn't call them retired, nor unemployed; as they have some business interests.

What one does for a living (or doesn't) makes no difference; all Masons are treated the same regardless. A dustman has the same status as a judge etc.

Yes, I'm reasonably au fait with the masons. The ones I know aren't the type to pack it all in and go on the scratcher at 39. Maybe it depends on the lodge.

poa

maudgonner wrote: »

Baiter?

I think when one starts to call someone names in a debate or argument; one has lost, don't you?

Or maybe you think it might wind me up or something?

Either way, the only one you are showing up here is yourself.

Samaris

Masonry aside, do you have anything to say as regards my comments?

poa

jimgoose wrote: »

Yes, I'm reasonably au fait with the masons. The ones I know aren't the type to pack it all in and go on the scratcher at 39. Maybe it depends on the lodge.

We have all types in my lodge, and all types in the lodges I have visited around Ireland.
More unemployed than you might think. What a man does for a living isn't discussed much to be honest; unless they want to of course. Say one needs an electrician to do a job, one might ask around if anyone knows one. But it's not like we hand out business cards after every meeting. Masons jobs come and go, that's a given. No one judges anyone on employment status; and millionaire or on the dole, they all donate 5 Euro per meeting to charity.
Yes, the majority of Mason's work of course.

poa

Samaris wrote: »

Masonry aside, do you have anything to say as regards my comments?

No thankyou.
You raise some good points.
I can't speak for how others feel, only I.

MacauDragon

Captain Flaps wrote: »

He's making a conscious choice to extract resources which could have been used for something more worthwhile than allowing him an easy life. Not much, granted, but €10k a year would go a long way towards a lot of important things.

You can make as many arguments about freedom and morality as you want but at the end of the day he's only able to take advantage of the system because the rest of us don't. I couldn't live with myself.

So long as theyre his own resources and he's at net €0.00 or above (by choice) he's not doing anything immoral.

He wasnt born with an iou attached and as long as he doesn't die and intentionally leave one behind hes in the clear morally.

How much would you have him pay to check out of the system and just be a free human.

x - x = 0

Samaris

MacauDragon wrote: »

So long as theyre his own resources and he's at net €0.00 or above (by choice) he's not doing anything immoral.

He wasnt born with an iou attached and as long as he doesn't die and intentionally leave one behind hes in the clear morally.

How much would you have him pay to check out of the system and just be a free human.

x - x = 0

Well...he can't "check out" of the system, y'see, not as long as he's using resources that belong to the system. Bring it down to a small scale, say, a workplace canteen. Chap partakes in the system, brings in milk and sugar every so often for the use of all, as everyone else does too. And after a period of time reckons "Screw this, I don't like bringing in milk and sugar, but the rest will still do it, I'll take them for all I can. Why should I contribute, I'm a free person" and steps back, using the general supplies and refusing to ever contribute to them again.

One COULD argue that he's only taking back the milk and sugar he already contributed, but...eh...no, that's long gone. :P

Bongalongherb

Life is too short to be working all the time, to hell with work.

Right, where am I going to get money so that I can enjoy my new life of non-work and progress into my real hobbies and travel. Umm... If only we didn't have to work a day in our lives and just lie back and think of all the great things we could do free as we should be, but then the world will stop, no-one making nice things for us to use and satisfy ourselves with and then dump them into recycling to be pleasure items for the new consumers, just a short enjoyment of material goods.

I hate work. I want everything for nothing and my cake too. But I have to work to get these damn things I need/want, (catch 22). Welcome to the hurtful world of work, the pain is too much, can I not just lie here with my TV and toaster ?. No, as work-shy is just a rut a person has gotten into over the years, but of which is necessary to escape and mingle with other folk, some of which will be right bastards and some will be very nice folk and a laugh begins between the interaction of being sociable again in a working environment.

Work-shy is from being lazy in a long-term rut, release the chains and go fourth through life instead of life going through you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoGofvVhKTo

KomradeBishop

It's a case of someone gaming 'the system' because he can get away with it, and that's about it.

I don't agree with it, and I wonder how many of the critical posters here would say "fair play" to someone who games the system, by either avoiding or even evading their tax obligations - in the former case morally questionable, in the latter case, just as legally wrong as the OP.


You'll rarely see anyone give a toss about that though, even though it has a way bigger effect on the budget (and again: the entire social welfare bill, does not represent the OP, so is not comparable).

People are very well trained by e.g. the tabloid media, to only give a toss about the small fry - and to ignore the much bigger issues that affect our country way more.

Captain Flaps

MacauDragon wrote: »

x - x = 0

Fallacious argument. He's used the roads, the healthcare system, the water mains, the waste disposal. He's benefited immeasurably from being part of the societal framework he's contributed to, so you can't say X goes in, X comes out.

Again, because you don't seem to grasp this, if everybody did what he's doing (saying 'f*ck it, I'm stopping work and going on the dole) everything would fall apart.

the evasion_kid

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Life is too short to be working all the time, to hell with work.

Right, where am I going to get money so that I can enjoy my new life of non-work and progress into my real hobbies and travel. Umm... If only we didn't have to work a day in our lives and just lie back and think of all the great things we could do free as we should be, but then the world will stop, no-one making nice things for us to use and satisfy ourselves with and then dump them into recycling to be pleasure items for the new consumers, just a short enjoyment of material goods.

I hate work. I want everything for nothing and my cake too. But I have to work to get these damn things I need/want, (catch 22). Welcome to the hurtful world of work, the pain is too much, can I not just lie here with my TV and toaster ?. No, as work-shy is just a rut a person has gotten into over the years, but of which is necessary to escape and mingle with other folk, some of which will be right bastards and some will be very nice folk and a laugh begins between the interaction of being sociable again in a working environment.

Work-shy is from being lazy in a long-term rut, release the chains and go fourth through life instead of life going through you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoGofvVhKTo

I just pick up a throw away job for a few months,save up and then travel for a few months,life is too Precious to be stuck long term in a mind numbing, soul destroying job.

Captain Flaps

the evasion_kid wrote: »

I just pick up a throw away job for a few months,save up and then travel for a few months,life is too Precious to be stuck long term in a mind numbing, soul destroying job.

Fair play, sounds like you've found what works for you and that's commendable. You also don't expect others to fund the life you've chosen, you're making it work for yourself.

Bongalongherb

the evasion_kid wrote: »

I just pick up a throw away job for a few months,save up and then travel for a few months,life is too Precious to be stuck long term in a mind numbing, soul destroying job.

That's the way to do it properly, just work till you get enough cash and travel the big wide world and its mysterious places of interest. The rut also associates itself to the 9/5 working folk stuck in it but have no choice as they might have kids and all the other bills to keep them grounded. If a person does not have this tie, then the work for a few months and leave and then travel is the real life and the way it should be. Most folk will sit back in time to come and say to themselves... why didn't I just do that back in the day.

We all shape the world we live in, but if it is shaped to just work till you die then that's not living. Time out, long time out to enjoy free time.

Call Me Jimmy

My name is URL wrote: »

What a silly question

You make it sound like the only reason people work is so others get stuff for nothing.

Do you think that if people had their welfare payments stopped that it'd somehow mean that you have to work less, or that you'll get paid more as a result?

You must really hate your job to be filled with such bitterness and resentment over having to work at all.

And you're obviously not earning enough if you look at long term unemployed people and think, 'Jaysus, that's the life'. You should look for a raise or find a job that you're actually happy to do.

This is what always comes to mind in these threads. ' i'de be so much happier if when I got taxed that i knew there were no dole scroungers'. yea right. dole scroungers exist sure, but the completely lack of self-reflection is mind boggling. If a perfect scheme removed them all you'd still be in the same situation yourself. The blame would just shift to someone or something else and rinse repeat, the alarm clock buzzes again

Joshua J

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Life is too short to be working all the time, to hell with work.

Right, where am I going to get money so that I can enjoy my new life of non-work and progress into my real hobbies and travel. Umm... If only we didn't have to work a day in our lives and just lie back and think of all the great things we could do free as we should be, but then the world will stop, no-one making nice things for us to use and satisfy ourselves with and then dump them into recycling to be pleasure items for the new consumers, just a short enjoyment of material goods.

I hate work. I want everything for nothing and my cake too. But I have to work to get these damn things I need/want, (catch 22). Welcome to the hurtful world of work, the pain is too much, can I not just lie here with my TV and toaster ?. No, as work-shy is just a rut a person has gotten into over the years, but of which is necessary to escape and mingle with other folk, some of which will be right bastards and some will be very nice folk and a laugh begins between the interaction of being sociable again in a working environment.

Work-shy is from being lazy in a long-term rut, release the chains and go fourth through life instead of life going through you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoGofvVhKTo

Like nobody who works is in a depression or a rut?. Look around you, world is full of smiling-depressives, all with a sob story.

maudgonner

poa wrote: »

I think when one starts to call someone names in a debate or argument; one has lost, don't you?

Or maybe you think it might wind me up or something?

Either way, the only one you are showing up here is yourself.

It was just a joke. If you see a pun, you have to make it, that's the law in these parts.

MacauDragon

Captain Flaps wrote: »

Fallacious argument. He's used the roads, the healthcare system, the water mains, the waste disposal. He's benefited immeasurably from being part of the societal framework he's contributed to, so you can't say X goes in, X comes out.

Again, because you don't seem to grasp this, if everybody did what he's doing (saying 'f*ck it, I'm stopping work and going on the dole) everything would fall apart.

Yes it would. As i said earlier. But thats a civic/governmental question.

At the other extreme is that everyone is a state asset which must work for the good of the state alone. Would you prefer that?
No freedom to leave the system.

Poa was involuntarily born here, he paid the demanded charges for all the above infrastructure through his 40% over his career. So owes nothing.
As long as he doesnt extract resources beyond what he has net contributed hes done nobody any harm.

I think it might be German in which the word 'debt' is the same or has the same meaning as 'shame'.

Shame comes when you do something immoral.

If you have no net debt, and havent done something immoral elsewhere in the meantime, then you have no net shame.

Because youre morally in the clear, just like poa.

Joshua J

Samaris wrote: »

Well...he can't "check out" of the system, y'see, not as long as he's using resources that belong to the system. Bring it down to a small scale, say, a workplace canteen. Chap partakes in the system, brings in milk and sugar every so often for the use of all, as everyone else does too. And after a period of time reckons "Screw this, I don't like bringing in milk and sugar, but the rest will still do it, I'll take them for all I can. Why should I contribute, I'm a free person" and steps back, using the general supplies and refusing to ever contribute to them again.

One COULD argue that he's only taking back the milk and sugar he already contributed, but...eh...no, that's long gone. :P

I think a better analogy would be everyone in the company brings in sugar and milk everyday then the CEO comes in and takes it all. Same scenario everyday.

Joshua J

MacauDragon wrote: »

Poa was involuntarily born here,

That is a really interesting phrase. Is a child free?.

MacauDragon

Samaris wrote: »

Well...he can't "check out" of the system, y'see, not as long as he's using resources that belong to the system. Bring it down to a small scale, say, a workplace canteen. Chap partakes in the system, brings in milk and sugar every so often for the use of all, as everyone else does too. And after a period of time reckons "Screw this, I don't like bringing in milk and sugar, but the rest will still do it, I'll take them for all I can. Why should I contribute, I'm a free person" and steps back, using the general supplies and refusing to ever contribute to them again.

One COULD argue that he's only taking back the milk and sugar he already contributed, but...eh...no, that's long gone. :P

Wrong. He brought value, and hes taking back said value.

As long as the net value he takes back

(including the cost of what he consumed in the meantime)

doesn't exceed what he brought he is not in debt to anyone.

In your analogy youre calling him immoral if he doesnt sit at the table because you want him to.

Captain Flaps

I'm not even questioning morality, I just think it's reprehensible and shameful to expect other people to carry you the rest of your lives. I'm sure poa hasn't had many positive reactions to telling people that face to face, if he does.

MacauDragon

Its not other people carrying him, its his previous labor.

BrianD3

I agree with the poster poa on several points. I am about the same age with similar family circumstances. I am working at the moment but hope to retire in my 40s.

However, if/when I stop working, I don't intend to claim any dole but rather live off investment income until state pension age when my 20+ years of social insurance contributions should give me a small pension. As I am very frugal, own my house and don't have a wife, mortgage or children I don't need much income to enjoy my life.

Some would undoubtedly condemn and shame me for not being a good little worker drone and consumer who should "man up", get a wife and kids, climb the corporate ladder (and pay more tax) and keep working until I'm 75 so that I can be a "productive member of society".

My attitude to work has changed in the last few years thanks to a few things -I have watched relatives get sick and die and realise that I am getting older and this will happen to me too. Up until a few years ago I never thought about death or about how my time is finite. Also, I have been reading blogs and websites such as earlyretirementextreme and captaincapitalism which have made me think about work and life.

Even though I didn't know my arse from my elbow in my teens and twenties I got through them relatively unscathed - I have never dabbled in drugs and only a little in alcohol, didn't make any stupid errors like getting someone pregnant and have been saving to invest since I was a teenager. As a result of this, my finances are now very healthy and I have freedom and options that many other people my age can only dream about.

I have also realised that many people who have children are not exactly good parents and have had children for the wrong reasons e.g. following the herd, misguided ideas about leaving a legacy, so that they have someone to look after them in old age etc.