Allergic to Work

Chiorino

MacauDragon wrote: »

If he paid only 100 into the tax pot every week for 20 years he'd be at around +104,000.
Say he used up 50,000 worth of public infrastructure in his life thusfar.

He's still 54,000 in the black.
Which works out at ~5.5 years on 188 a week.

Not counting taxes he paid on purchases.

He owes nothing.

You have no idea what proportion of taxes paid went towards what. Useless argument.

MacauDragon

Chiorino wrote: »

You have no idea what proportion of taxes paid went towards what. Useless argument.

And you do ?

If its useless in one sense its useless in both.

frozenfrozen

whatever about him not paying in more than he will take out. it's better for him to be sponging than to go 500k into debt and killing himself. Fair dues for finding out the only thing stressing you out in life was having to work. Maybe you'll find something you enjoy doing which you could earn money from too, now that the stress of needing a job is gone.

it's an argument for a basic liveable wage, whether it would work or not there would be a lot of people who could just sit on their arse being happy rather than taking up a position they hate in a company while being miserable.

Chiorino

MacauDragon wrote: »

And you do ?

If its useless in one sense its useless in both.

I don't, but then I'm not pulling figures out of the air to justify an opinion.

maudgonner

MacauDragon wrote: »

If he paid only 100 into the tax pot every week for 20 years he'd be at around +104,000.
Say he used up 50,000 worth of public infrastructure in his life thusfar.

He's still 54,000 in the black.
Which works out at ~5.5 years on 188 a week.

Not counting taxes he paid on purchases.

He owes nothing.

5.5 years and then what? No more benefits for the rest of his life? He's not planning on working ever again. Do you expect him to drop dead at the age of 44? Or just live on fresh air and never use public services again?

MacauDragon

Chiorino wrote: »

I don't, but then I'm not pulling figures out of the air to justify an opinion.

So you won't be justifying an opposing opinion either then.

MacauDragon

maudgonner wrote: »

5.5 years and then what? No more benefits for the rest of his life? He's not planning on working ever again. Do you expect him to drop dead at the age of 44? Or just live on fresh air and never use public services again?

Who knows what he'll do. Drop dead. Move country. Start a business. All of the above.
As of today he owes nothing. So can enjoy his tea without any regard for any detractors.

Kev_2012

Your man has to be trolling right? I'm sure none of us would work if we had the option not to!

If I won the lotto, or became very rich one day, damn straight I'd pack in work! But I wouldn't be on the dole! I think in 12 years of paying taxes I've received about 5 weeks of dole payments, and even at that I hated sitting around doing nothing and 188 euro is nothing.

Everyone, and I mean everyone needs to eat, pay bills/rent/mortgage. Who does he think he is?

If you don't like your job, then find something you do like! I have had jobs I liked and others I hated. If you need to go to college to do a job you like then just do it!

Don't be going around sponging off everyone else simply because you're a lazy bastard.

Also, using mental health as an excuse not to work? That's disgraceful too.

There is always an option if your work isn't fulfilling or makes you feel bad or whatever but you need to go about changing that in the right way.

Pff, I'd hope you were kicked off the dole after an admission like that!!:mad:

Joshua J

frozenfrozen wrote: »

whatever about him not paying in more than he will take out. it's better for him to be sponging than to go 500k into debt and killing himself. Fair dues for finding out the only thing stressing you out in life was having to work. Maybe you'll find something you enjoy doing which you could earn money from too, now that the stress of needing a job is gone.

it's an argument for a basic liveable wage, whether it would work or not there would be a lot of people who could just sit on their arse being happy rather than taking up a position they hate in a company while being miserable.

Society would prefer I be unhappy and working than happy and not working ergo my happiness does not matter to society, just my contribution.

Chiorino

MacauDragon wrote: »

So you won't be justifying an opposing opinion either then.

I don't need to justify an opposing opinion. Remember that the dole is actually called JOBSEEKERS allowance/benefit. Not "couldn't be arsed working" benefit.

KomradeBishop

The posts in this thread, where people speak of not wanting to work because of unhappiness/anxiety, and those attacking these posters, are reasons why I think society should have these two conditions in place:
1: People should be entitled to a job, if they want one - and that means even if the private markets can't provide them with one (which, as we've seen over the last decade, is often the case) - through a Job Guarantee (read before assuming what it is).

2: People should be entitled to personally fulfilling work, so long as the work they do can be demonstrated as beneficial to society.

These ideas should be basic and acceptable, not treated as radical and extreme as they usually are - most posters don't even bat an eyelid at concepts such as a Basic Income (which I don't personally support), or at the idea that work shouldn't be harmful/exploitative (except people tend to think "that's just how it is..." as a justification for it, even though that is quite changeable) - so the two concepts above, should really be universally acceptable.


I think the posters in this thread, who don't want to work in the present system, would perhaps be open to working in the above system - and even if they aren't, the posters who want to see those claiming dole but not seeking work punished, also have a reason to support the above system, because it would allow easy identification and punishment of people on the dole but not working (as there would always be a job available, it would be impossible to claim lack of jobs, so it's easy to kick people off the dole).

Chiorino

Joshua J wrote: »

Society would prefer I be unhappy and working than happy and not working ergo my happiness does not matter to society, just my contribution.

No, society would prefer you make some sort of positive contribution to it. I have no problem with my taxes going toward someone who wishes to retrain or upskill to find a job that they are happy with, in fact I'm glad I'm part of a society that gives people these sort of opportunities but not to sit on their arse all day because " work stresses me out and makes me unhappy".
Deal with it or change your circumstances.

maudgonner

MacauDragon wrote: »

Who knows what he'll do. Drop dead. Move country. Start a business. All of the above.
As of today he owes nothing. So can enjoy his tea without any regard for any detractors.

He has explicitly said that he probably won't ever work again.

poa wrote: »

When I worked I paid my taxes and supported the sponges on the dole, the lifers that have never worked. And now I am one of them. I probably won't ever work again. Do I feel any guilt in being fit and able to work, but choosing not to? None at all.

So that being the case, I have no issue with him as long as he stops drawing dole and using public services in 5.5 years time (going by your figures) and never claims any further benefits. But the only way that seems feasible to me is death or permanent emigration.

MacauDragon

Chiorino wrote: »

I don't need to justify an opposing opinion. Remember that the dole is actually called JOBSEEKERS allowance/benefit. Not "couldn't be arsed working" benefit.

So the govt took a share of his money via the system for 20 years and said to claim it back you must be looking for work.

And he said no I mustn't. And is taking some of it back via the system.

As of today he is a net contributor.

Joshua J

Chiorino wrote: »

No, society would prefer you make some sort of positive contribution to it. I have no problem with my taxes going toward someone who wishes to retrain or upskill to find a job that they are happy with, in fact I'm glad I'm part of a society that gives people these sort of opportunities but not to sit on their arse all day because " work stresses me out and makes me unhappy".
Deal with it or change your circumstances.

Society as an idea is defunct, those at the top who can afford the best accountants contribute nothing, less than I who has worked many years. It's a trap, nothing more. I'm just trying to be happy.

MacauDragon

maudgonner wrote: »

He has explicitly said that he probably won't ever work again.



So that being the case, I have no issue with him as long as he stops drawing dole and using public services in 5.5 years time (going by your figures) and never claims any further benefits. But the only way that seems feasible to me is death or permanent emigration.

Probably is such a vague word, full of possibility. Who knows what he'll do. Come back and ask him in 5.5 years.

Good to see you have no issue with him as of today. Much like myself. I suppose you'll leave him to his tea now.

maudgonner

MacauDragon wrote: »

Probably is a vague promise. Who knows what he'll do. Come back and ask him in 5.5 years.

Good to see you have no issue with him as of today. Much like myself. I suppose you'll leave him to his tea now.

Nope, I still have a huge issue with him today because he's said what his intentions are, made it perfectly clear. You're the one who is claiming he'll have an epiphany some day in the future - he has given no indications that's the case. Quite the opposite.

Chiorino

MacauDragon wrote: »

So the govt took a share of his money via the system for 20 years and said to claim it back you must be looking for work.

And he said no I mustn't. And is taking some of it back via abuse of the system.

As of today he is a net contributor.

FYP.

super_furry

You know what, for the lads/ladies who are on their own, living a single life and have just decided to opt out of the working world - fair play. If there's no-one but yourself depending on you, go for it. It's not my way and I'm not sure I'd find it fulfilling, but I can't begrudge you if you're happy.

It's the people with responsibilities that ignore them that I'd take issue with. Those who have children and can't be bothered doing everything they can to ensure their kids have as good a life as possible. It's not just expecting other people to pay for raising your kids, it's them not being bothered with how their children turn out. Speaking as someone who grew up in a disadvantaged area, there are a lot of people out there who just care more about their own comfort than their children's happiness and their future.

MacauDragon

maudgonner wrote: »

Nope, I still have a huge issue with him today because he's said what his intentions are, made it perfectly clear. You're the one who is claiming he'll have an epiphany some day in the future - he has given no indications that's the case. Quite the opposite.

1)You can't stop him.

2)You've no moral argument against his present conditions.

All you can really do in the meantime is whinge online about what he might or might not do at some point in the future.

He owes you nothing.

Next week he'll pick up the money he paid in. Deal with it.

Noddy33

MacauDragon wrote: »

Could agree, however, he worked 20 years/paid in for 20 years ...the money he's receiving is the money he made/paid in.

Therefore he's not taking from anyone but himself.

Additionally, hes likely paying vat and indirect taxes on daily purchases and will pay for land and other charges if he ever buys a gaff.
So probably net contributor after all considered.

Come out of the Fog!!everybody knows thats not how the tax system works. Taxes in the past and present went towards the costs of the daily running of the country and not towards a little private pension fund so you can retire early and claim it back in the future through dole payments. As mentioned already the Social Welfare system is there to help assist people while they try find employment and not as a "way of life" to relax and enjoy yourself which unfortunately is what thousands of people have done and taken complete advantage of the flawed system.

I completely admire OP for taken the brave decision to retire early if he felt the rewards of work didnt merit the hardship and stress but he should be doing it at a cost out of his own pocket and not from comfort of dole payments

snickerpuss

The problem with working any job if you've got a professional qualification is this:

-You undertake a professional MA or similar and while studying you keep your job in retail/hospitality etc.
-You graduate €7,000 in debt and continue to work in retail etc to keep money coming in.
-Meanwhile others in your class who didn't work get jobbridge internships etc which allow them to gain experience and move on in their career.
-You are not eligible for this so you have no way of gaining experience unless you find somewhere who will let you do a non-jobbridge internship while you also work at your other job. (A lot of places will now only allow jobbridge interns now)
-You are stuck in a dead end job because you kept working to support yourself while others get opportunities and experience that are not open to you.

KomradeBishop

I think both the posters sponging on the dole, and those having a go at the spongers, are missing the main point here: In a broken system, people will get fed up, and do what they can to either survive or seek some limited happiness within it - even if it means cheating the system.

The solution is to fix the wider problems with the system, so that people can both be happy within it, and unwilling/unable to cheat it.

Right now it's just completely broken. It's acceptable in modern society, for thousands upon thousands of people to be left without an opportunity for a fulfilling life, due to a lack of jobs - and for this to persist for a decade+ (and this is going to persist over the coming decades, unless some big changes happen).

BuilderPlumber

Just saw the revival of this thread that I did not contribute to before. I agree that people should work if they can, should get work that respects their background/qualification, should get social welfare if through no fault of their own they find themselves out of work. A person with a qualification in a certain area should not have to lower themselves to working in McDonalds (what would that do to self development? What kind of PR would that be to our education system?) unless they are doing it to fund further studies, etc.

BUT I find it very very hard to read this statement by Michael Noonan one year on. It seems as if everyone else is supposed to work except the politicians. It is time these jokers form a government and get up off their tods and do something for the country and provide work and work opportunities and a bit of support for small business too. If passing smart remarks at each other in a posh building in Dublin is considered work, then something is amiss.

MacauDragon

Noddy33 wrote: »

Come out of the Fog!!everybody knows thats not how the tax system works. Taxes in the past and present went towards the costs of the daily running of the country and not towards a little private pension fund so you can retire early and claim it back in the future through dole payments. As mentioned already the Social Welfare system is there to help assist people while they try find employment and not as a "way of life" to relax and enjoy yourself which unfortunately is what thousands of people have done and taken complete advantage of the flawed system.

I completely admire OP for taken the brave decision to retire early if he felt the rewards of work didnt merit the hardship and stress but he should be doing it at a cost out of his own pocket and not from comfort of dole payments

Up until the point where his own life is being maintained by the efforts of others there's no moral argument against the guy. He paid his way.

He put in x, he took out x. So who are you, and what does he owe you.

BuilderPlumber

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I think both the posters sponging on the dole, and those having a go at the spongers, are missing the main point here: In a broken system, people will get fed up, and do what they can to either survive or seek some limited happiness within it - even if it means cheating the system.

The solution is to fix the wider problems with the system, so that people can both be happy within it, and unwilling/unable to cheat it.

Right now it's just completely broken. It's acceptable in modern society, for thousands upon thousands of people to be left without an opportunity for a fulfilling life, due to a lack of jobs - and for this to persist for a decade+ (and this is going to persist over the coming decades, unless some big changes happen).

This is it exactly. Many people do their best, get qualified and then find themselves either in low paid insecure jobs or on social welfare through no fault of their own. Others just draw social welfare and truck and trade in things without a care in the world and do better. That is the problem.

The politicians do not listen, the media do not listen. All they do is pigeonhole issues into soundbites like 'unemployment', 'homelessness' and so on and do not even consider practical steps to solve these issues. Doors remain closed for many and this unfair, insecure society is only going explode someday into some type of revolution. There is only so much people can put up with.

Noddy33

poa wrote: »

Blame those who create a system whereby it can happen. If you give people free money for a zero hour working week; some will take that option. I am one of them.
Being seen to make an effort to avoid cuts is meaningless. I can apply for jobs and get rejection emails all day long. The dole office doesn't have the manpower nor the motivation to cut lifers benefits.
Jobbridge massages the unemployment figures for the government's mandate; that is their real concern, not cutting dole.
The bottom line is this; a man has the choice of work or sponging.
Some choose the former, and some choose the latter. Freedom of choice (like it or not), means some men choose one and some men choose the other.

I completely salute you for deciding to quit the working life because you felt health was suffering and quite simply better off long term not working and fair play to you but I think you should be dong this at a cost out of of your own pocket. My issue is quite simply how you dont feel any guilt in sponging off society through welfare payments and dont bring up how you already contributed to society through your taxes when you worked because we all know thats not how the tax systems works. I would suggest that answer to this everyday occurrence in society would be to just simply slash the dole payments to a level where this kind of behaviour and lifestyle wouldnt be sustainable but then again there are genuine people out there with families and mortgages where the €188 dole benefit recieved isn't substantial enough.

poa

maudgonner wrote: »

Nope, I still have a huge issue with him today because he's said what his intentions are, made it perfectly clear. You're the one who is claiming he'll have an epiphany some day in the future - he has given no indications that's the case. Quite the opposite.

You have an issue with my choice of life.
I have no issue with your choice of life.
Who is the better man, the one with issues, or the one without?
I am in no position to judge anyone, so I won't try to judge you.
I will let better men than I decide on here.
Different strokes for different folks.

poa

Noddy33 wrote: »

I completely salute you for deciding to quit the working life because you felt health was suffering and quite simply better off long term not working and fair play to you but I think you should be dong this at a cost out of of your own pocket. My issue is quite simply how you dont feel any guilt in sponging off society through welfare payments and dont bring up how you already contributed to society through your taxes when you worked because we all know thats not how the tax systems works. I would suggest that answer to this everyday occurrence in society would be to just simply slash the dole payments to a level where this kind of behaviour and lifestyle wouldnt be sustainable but then again there are genuine people out there with families and mortgages where the €188 dole benefit recieved isn't substantial enough.

In the UK one has to sign on every 2 weeks and the dole is (over 25) £73.10 (93 Euro) pr week.
One has to sign on every 2 weeks, and produce a booklet detailing efforts to seek work; jobs applied for, interviews attended etc. A job advisor checks this when signing on.
Here we sign on 12 days per year, and no checks are done at all; and of course the dole is 188 not 93 per week.
Don't blame the dole head for taking the path of least resistance. The state made a systems that is easy to exploit, and so it is.
Do I feel guilt for doing so? None. Yes, I worked and paid my taxes; moaned about the dole spongers etc. And now I am one of them, so the boot is on the other foot.
I see it from both sides, worker and sponger; and on balance I prefer the latter lifestyle.
I am not here to judge or justify the rights and wrongs of the worker v sponger life.
I just live my life the way that makes me most happy.
I tried working for 20 years, and was unhappy. Now I have my freedom and I am happier.
Should I feel some guilt? Maybe, maybe not. But one cannot make a man feel an emotion he just doesn't feel.
The truth is, I am apathetic about it all. I really don't care if a man works or sponges; that is their choice.
Would I care more if my dole was cut, and more pressure applied to get work? Yes, of course. Maybe it works better in the UK like that as there is lower unemployment.
But its hard to say, as we are 4.6 million compared to the UK's 66 million.
In any case, right or wrong; I can live OK on 188 per week with no mortgage to pay.
So I don't complain (unlike the workers).
One has to do what makes one happiest in life. I had a taste of working hard and earning big money, and being stressed, but I don't want that any more.
500 per week v 188 per week, unhappy V happy; these are the choices a man makes.
So what are my plans?
I am 39 now, and will live off my dole and savings well for the next 10-15 years.
Then my parents will be 80-85 and most likely pass. So I will live off their inheritance for the remainder of my life.
Do I feel guilt I never had kids or a mortgage? No. Feel guilt I didn't contribute to taxes and society more? No.
I feel good I chose to call it a day at 38 when I did. I don't expect others to see it my way.
Each to their own.

Chiorino

poa wrote: »

In the UK one has to sign on every 2 weeks and the dole is (over 25) £73.10 (93 Euro) pr week.
One has to sign on every 2 weeks, and produce a booklet detailing efforts to seek work; jobs applied for, interviews attended etc. A job advisor checks this when signing on.
Here we sign on 12 days per year, and no checks are done at all; and of course the dole is 188 not 93 per week.
Don't blame the dole head for taking the path of least resistance. The state made a systems that is easy to exploit, and so it is.
Do I feel guilt for doing so? None. Yes, I worked and paid my taxes; moaned about the dole spongers etc. And now I am one of them, so the boot is on the other foot.
I see it from both sides, worker and sponger; and on balance I prefer the latter lifestyle.
I am not here to judge or justify the rights and wrongs of the worker v sponger life.
I just live my life the way that makes me most happy.
I tried working for 20 years, and was unhappy. Now I have my freedom and I am happier.
Should I feel some guilt? Maybe, maybe not. But one cannot make a man feel an emotion he just doesn't feel.
The truth is, I am apathetic about it all. I really don't care if a man works or sponges; that is their choice.
Would I care more if my dole was cut, and more pressure applied to get work? Yes, of course. Maybe it works better in the UK like that as there is lower unemployment.
But its hard to say, as we are 4.6 million compared to the UK's 66 million.
In any case, right or wrong; I can live OK on 188 per week with no mortgage to pay.
So I don't complain (unlike the workers).
One has to do what makes one happiest in life. I had a taste of working hard and earning big money, and being stressed, but I don't want that any more.
500 per week v 188 per week, unhappy V happy; these are the choices a man makes.
So what are my plans?
I am 39 now, and will live off my dole and savings well for the next 10-15 years.
Then my parents will be 80-85 and most likely pass. So I will live off their inheritance for the remainder of my life.
Do I feel guilt I never had kids or a mortgage? No. Feel guilt I didn't contribute to taxes and society more? No.
I feel good I chose to call it a day at 38 when I did. I don't expect others to see it my way.
Each to their own.

Paint it whatever way you like to make you feel good about it but what you are doing is wrong and the vast majority of people would agree with me.