UK Election 2015

Frito

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I might have to accept that at some point. Alistair Darling mentioned in the Guardian that Labour waited to long to choose a leader which allowed the Tories to frame the debates. Ed spent most of his time on the defensive. A lot of people seem to be extremely suspicious of him entering a coalition with the SNP and may have voted Conservative as a result.

Fiona McTaggart (recently on the beeb) suggesting this campaign lacked appeal to the electorate outside the core vote, that this was a knock-on from excessive internal dialogue after last election about who should lead. Her point was another who should lead? discussion within the party faithful is useless as the brand needs defining.
So perhaps your concern about a lurch back to the centre isn't too far off the mark.

Fratton Fred

I look forward to seeing what the SNP do about the EU referendum.

Will they campaign to remain part of a large political union because it makes good economic sense, or will they keep out of the debate in the hope Britain leaves, swelling support for independence, on the basis that being part of a large political union is bad and it makes economic sense to be independent.

bnt

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Disappointing day. First, the Tories win and then Nick and Ed step down. Really hope Labour don't do a U-turn and return to Blair/Brownism as a result of this.

Not sure what you mean by "return" there: did they leave Blair/Brownism in the first place? What was different? It looks simple to me: we can talk about Blair/Brownism because Blair and Brown were in power and could actually apply their policies, but we won't be talking about "Milibandism" in the future, will we?

Eric Cartman

My preferences for the whole election were always

1) Tory UKIP coalition , with farage elected

2) Tory Majority.

so aside from Nigel not getting a seat, I'm pretty happy today. Roll on a strong conservative future.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They lost a fair few seats in England too.

.

Have a look for yourself

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I look forward to seeing what the SNP do about the EU referendum.

Will they campaign to remain part of a large political union because it makes good economic sense, or will they keep out of the debate in the hope Britain leaves, swelling support for independence, on the basis that being part of a large political union is bad and it makes economic sense to be independent.

The SNP will vigorously support EU membership. They object to being part of the UK, not of Europe. They see EU membership as a strong counterweight to the little England mentality of many down south. Based on her performance in this election, Sturgeon will be a formidable campaigner.

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Have a look for yourself

Interesting, where's that from?

FreudianSlippers

Eric Cartman wrote: »

My preferences for the whole election were always

1) Tory UKIP coalition , with farage elected

2) Tory Majority.

so aside from Nigel not getting a seat, I'm pretty happy today. Roll on a strong conservative future.

God I hope the first one was a joke. We agree on so many issues, I'd hate to have to rethink my position

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I look forward to seeing what the SNP do about the EU referendum.

Will they campaign to remain part of a large political union because it makes good economic sense, or will they keep out of the debate in the hope Britain leaves, swelling support for independence, on the basis that being part of a large political union is bad and it makes economic sense to be independent.

You already know what the SNP will do. Surely you seen this in the news?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29805045

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Interesting, where's that from?

From the BBC website, I took snap shots of the results page

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

The SNP will vigorously support EU membership. They object to being part of the UK, not of Europe. They see EU membership as a strong counterweight to the little England mentality of many down south. Based on her performance in this election, Sturgeon will be a formidable campaigner.

could you define "little England mentality" please, because I always thought the argument for Scottish independence had nothing to do with being anti English?

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You already know what the SNP will do. Surely you seen this in the news?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29805045

I know. I'm interested in hearing the arguments though.

The UK won't leave the eu though, so it is irrelevant.

Eric Cartman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

God I hope the first one was a joke. We agree on so many issues, I'd hate to have to rethink my position

I wouldn't have him as PM , but farage and UKIP as a whole have some pretty effective ideas in terms of removing regulation and could twist the hand on adopting the australian model for immigration control.

My views have nothing to do with EU exits, sweeping away the muslims etc..

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

From the BBC website, I took snap shots of the results page

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

That's interesting, I didn't realize Labour did so well in England. Interesting times.

jank

BoatMad wrote: »

Its clear that labour can not win an election from the far left, the centre ground is where its at. It will have to reconnect to middle English to get elected or hope for coalitions

Somewhat agreed. I was listening to BBC4 for ages and one of the Senior Labour MP's was talking about the failure of Labour to connect with the electorate. He said one of the biggest issue he found on the door step was the subject of immigration. Yet Labour would rather dismiss this topic, stick its head in the sand rather then confront it. There is a reason why UKIP got over 3.5 million votes. Get half of them and it could have been a very different story.

Anyway, Labour has been at war with it self for years. Some wish to return to more idealogical safe grounds of the far left, which will leave them out of power for eternity. Some want to be practical and move Labour to the Centre ala Blair and win power.

Finally, what Cameron has done has not been done in years. Not even Thatcher managed it. I wonder will this change peoples opinion of him now, pulling this out of the bag?

Clearlier

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

In fairness, it's not tax-free. The testator has presumably paid tax on it already.

I'm not saying no inheritance tax, but there should be a fair threshold and fair rates. It's a government windfall and double-taxation otherwise. It's also a populist stance from the left, given they aren't likely to inherit more than the threshold.

That's an old and nonsense argument. The donor doesn't have to pay any tax. It's the recipient who is liable for inheritance tax. It's money for nothing and perpetuates unmerited inequalities.

Aidric wrote: »

I'm finding it hard to tie out the result of the independence referendum and the huge surge in support for the SNP at this election or am I being naive?

1.6M people voted for Scottish Independence (45%). 1.45M people voted for the SNP but because there was a lower turnout they got 50% of the vote which because of the FPTP system lead to them getting nearly 100% of the seats. This mean that about 10% less people voted for the SNP than did for independence. I'd be extremely wary of suggesting that the election result represents a growing demand for independence.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote: »

could you define "little England mentality" please, because I always thought the argument for Scottish independence had nothing to do with being anti English?

They will not want to be dragged into the Anglophone isolationist world envisaged by UKIP and the battier wing of the Tories. It is not being anti English it is being anti England being anti Europe.

Lemming

I don't think the Tories will be in any hurry to organise an in/out EU referendum now that the original precusor to Cameron agreeing to such a referendum was looking over his shoulder (foolishly) at UKIP, who have been shown up for what they always have been; an irrelevancy that was built around a cult of personality that the media fed off.

who the fug

Lemming wrote: »

I don't think the Tories will be in any hurry to organise an in/out EU referendum now that the original precusor to Cameron agreeing to such a referendum was looking over his shoulder (foolishly) at UKIP, who have been shown up for what they always have been; an irrelevancy that was built around a cult of personality that the media fed off.

No there will be a referendum 2017 he cannot control his party on this one

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

They will not want to be dragged into the Anglophone isolationist world envisaged by UKIP and the battier wing of the Tories. It is not being anti English it is being anti England being anti Europe.

Do you actually know this, or are you speculating?

Harry Palmr

Con 331
Lab 232
SNP 56
LD 8
UKIP 1
Greens 1
PC 3
DUP 8
UUP 2
SF 4
SDLP 3
Ind 1

FreudianSlippers

Lemming wrote: »

I don't think the Tories will be in any hurry to organise an in/out EU referendum now that the original precusor to Cameron agreeing to such a referendum was looking over his shoulder (foolishly) at UKIP, who have been shown up for what they always have been; an irrelevancy that was built around a cult of personality that the media fed off.

I think you're right to an extent.

Cameron will put it off as late as possible 2017 whist working on negotiating with the EU; but if he feels he isn't getting what he wants, he'll threaten the EU with the referendum and I don't think he's afraid of pulling the trigger.

I wouldn't want to be on the EU side of that negotiation tbh.

Clearlier

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think you're right to an extent.

Cameron will put it off as late as possible 2017 whist working on negotiating with the EU; but if he feels he isn't getting what he wants, he'll threaten the EU with the referendum and I don't think he's afraid of pulling the trigger.

I wouldn't want to be on the EU side of that negotiation tbh.

I think that there's a sizeable enough sentiment within the EU to tell him to bugger off. I think that Cameron has got a much harder position tbh. So far as I can tell he has utterly failed to build any support with other EU countries. One country unilaterally demanding changes to an organisation representing 28 countries isn't likely to get very far. The UK needs the EU far more than the EU needs the UK.

FreudianSlippers

Clearlier wrote: »

I think that there's a sizeable enough sentiment within the EU to tell him to bugger off. I think that Cameron has got a much harder position tbh. So far as I can tell he has utterly failed to build any support with other EU countries. One country unilaterally demanding changes to an organisation representing 28 countries isn't likely to get very far. The UK needs the EU far more than the EU needs the UK.

The EU needs the UK's money though. I don't think the level of contribution from the UK to EU can be ignored.

Iwasfrozen

Clearlier wrote: »

I think that there's a sizeable enough sentiment within the EU to tell him to bugger off. I think that Cameron has got a much harder position tbh. So far as I can tell he has utterly failed to build any support with other EU countries. One country unilaterally demanding changes to an organisation representing 28 countries isn't likely to get very far. The UK needs the EU far more than the EU needs the UK.

The UK isn't just one country though, it's one of the three important countries along with Germany and France.

partyguinness

Lemming wrote: »

I don't think the Tories will be in any hurry to organise an in/out EU referendum now that the original precusor to Cameron agreeing to such a referendum was looking over his shoulder (foolishly) at UKIP, who have been shown up for what they always have been; an irrelevancy that was built around a cult of personality that the media fed off.

I have been living in England for past 5 years and even had a vote- not entirely sure how mind you...:o

I believe that a EU referendum will backfire on the Tories- despite all the anti-EU rhetoric I genuinely do not believe it would pass. The vast majority of the anti-EU rubbish is just a red herring which is shown to be utter rubbish when faced by a well informed commentator.

Unfortunately, in the UK media, its not about what you know- it's about how loud you can shout no matter what rubbish comes out. The usual ant-EU rant is aimed at middle aged, little Englanders who are perceived to have jumped from working class to lower middle class- the obsession with 'class' in this country is quite frankly immature.

Yeah, UKIP are just a party act enjoying its 15 minutes of fame- they are irrelevant.

bazermc

God the UK are very efficient - 18 hours after polls closed and the votes are already counted and down and dusted. Same situation in Ireland some of the boxes wouldnt have even been opened

Of couse they start counting immediately and dont have a PR system - even still though!!!!!

Nomis21

UK has first past the post principle in elections, if not UKIP would now be holding the balance of power as they managed over 5 million votes.

who the fug

partyguinness wrote: »

I have been living in England for past 5 years and even had a vote- not entirely sure how mind you...:o

I believe that a EU referendum will backfire on the Tories- despite all the anti-EU rhetoric I genuinely do not believe it would pass. The vast majority of the anti-EU rubbish is just a red herring which is shown to be utter rubbish when faced by a well informed commentator.

Unfortunately, in the UK media, its not about what you know- it's about how loud you can shout no matter what rubbish comes out. The usual ant-EU rant is aimed at middle aged, little Englanders who are perceived to have jumped from working class to lower middle class- the obsession with 'class' in this country is quite frankly immature.

Yeah, UKIP are just a party act enjoying its 15 minutes of fame- they are irrelevant.

Seeing as you are fresh off the boat I will go easy.

The Tory party are not anti Europe and want to stay in Europe, unfortunatly the looney fringe of the party as you quiet rightly point out make allot of noise which sells papers

The obsession with class is one that the left have and doesn't pan out

The following are all the PM since 1964.

Wilson
Heath
Wilson
Callaghan
Thatcher
Major
Blair
Browne

Cameroon is the odd one out

FreudianSlippers

partyguinness wrote: »

I have been living in England for past 5 years and even had a vote- not entirely sure how mind you...:o

I believe that a EU referendum will backfire on the Tories- despite all the anti-EU rhetoric I genuinely do not believe it would pass. The vast majority of the anti-EU rubbish is just a red herring which is shown to be utter rubbish when faced by a well informed commentator.

Unfortunately, in the UK media, its not about what you know- it's about how loud you can shout no matter what rubbish comes out. The usual ant-EU rant is aimed at middle aged, little Englanders who are perceived to have jumped from working class to lower middle class- the obsession with 'class' in this country is quite frankly immature.

Yeah, UKIP are just a party act enjoying its 15 minutes of fame- they are irrelevant.

IMO the Tories don't want the anti-EU referendum to pass. They want (i) to use it as a populist tool to get re-elected (CHECK) (ii) to use it as a stick in negotiations with the EU and (iii) to use it (when the UK votes to stay in) to hold their hands up the next time someone blames them for an EU problem and say "well the public voted to stay in".

Political masterclass IMHO.