Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

Ropaire

I'd love to see us play off the cuff hurling again, but playing like that used to leave is very open in the full back line and that's what this system tries to fix.

If we want to fix the system, move Gleeson to center back, keep Tadhg sweeping in behind to cover Gleeson when he decides to go wandering and drop midfield and wing forwards back, but nowhere near as much as we usually do. Leave the 11 and the two man full forward line higher up the pitch so we at least have someone to aim for when we turn over ball. It wouldn't be pretty but at least we'd have some kind of a chance and carry a threat.

Kilkenny are the template to follow, play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses, like they lack pace in defense so they squeeze space at that end of the pitch while making space for their forwards in the process. And they don't play constipated hurling while they do it.

garv123

I reckon it'll be one change as usual . Gleeson for fives...
Few subs thrown on with 5 mins to go as usual.

Hopefully I'm very wrong.

tomwaterford

Ropaire wrote: »

I'd love to see us play off the cuff hurling again, but playing like that used to leave is very open in the full back line and that's what this system tries to fix.

If we want to fix the system, move Gleeson to center back, keep Tadhg sweeping in behind to cover Gleeson when he decides to go wandering and drop midfield and wing forwards back, but nowhere near as much as we usually do. Leave the 11 and the two man full forward line higher up the pitch so we at least have someone to aim for when we turn over ball. It wouldn't be pretty but at least we'd have some kind of a chance and carry a threat.

Kilkenny are the template to follow, play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses, like they lack pace in defense so they squeeze space at that end of the pitch while making space for their forwards in the process. And they don't play constipated hurling while they do it.

What's the point of a system to protect a backline and still concedes five goals??


The game is up for it

Ropaire

tomwaterford wrote: »

What's the point of a system to protect a backline and still concedes five goals??


The game is up for it

We conceded 5 goals because we didn't protect our back line vs Tipp. We let their full backs carry ball to their 40 and bomb ball in on our full back, they bypassed the sweepers and packed middel third, broke it at the edge of the square and mopped up. If you want to protect your back line you cut the ball off at source.

Psychedelic

Ropaire wrote: »

If you want to protect your back line you cut the ball off at source.

But that's his point, the system means we don't do that, so why bother with it? Kilkenny will surely try to exploit that weakness on Sunday, so we'll see how it pans out again.

We would be better off playing a reckless attacking game, turn it into a may-the-best-team-win shooting contest.

danganabu

Ropaire wrote: »

We conceded 5 goals because we didn't protect our back line vs Tipp. We let their full backs carry ball to their 40 and bomb ball in on our full back, they bypassed the sweepers and packed middel third, broke it at the edge of the square and mopped up. If you want to protect your back line you cut the ball off at source.

the bit in bold is as a direct result of the system they are playing, players cannot physically be in two places at the one time. Same thing with people saying oh there's nothing wrong with the way they set up only for all the wides they hit, if they score them the next day etc. etc.

The wides, the lack of goal chances been created and the inability to pressurise the opposition backs in possession are all a direct result of this so called system.

It's absolute nonsense and will end in tears, I only hope for Waterford's sake the light is seen before some of these exceptionally talented players become disillusioned and programmed.

hurler on de ditch

Imagine, if you were the Waterford Senior hurling manager ,you are at the end of a three year plan,you are in the semi-final of the championship and your opponents are the most successful county ever to play the game ,they are what every hurling county aspires to be ,you have picked a squad of players from every eligible hurler in the county ,you have in your own mind picked the very best hurlers that you can see,you are going to Croke Park to manage the side ,probably for the last time,nobody expects you to pull off the miracle,you are on a hiding to nothing ,you have a choice,you continue to play a very defensive system and try and keep the score down,and more than likely lose,losing by a few points is not a victory or progress, only a win is progress.you head home on the team bus you look behind you and see a bus full of very very dedicated,skillful hurlers and you think,what if,what if what if,if only,if only,OR,you head to Croke Park with a bus load of extremely dedicated and skillful hurlers and you think to yourself ,hey I've **** all to lose and every thing to gain ,do you think that the oppositions 15 are not light years ahead of the lads sitting with you on the bus ,what is more important is you decide to go out with a bang ,let those lads hurl because that's what they do ,that's what they have being doing since they were able to hold a hurley ,that's why you picked them in the first place.

Gavlor

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

Imagine, if you were the Waterford Senior hurling manager ,you are at the end of a three year plan,you are in the semi-final of the championship and your opponents are the most successful county ever to play the game ,they are what every hurling county aspires to be ,you have picked a squad of players from every eligible hurler in the county ,you have in your own mind picked the very best hurlers that you can see,you are going to Croke Park to manage the side ,probably for the last time,nobody expects you to pull off the miracle,you are on a hiding to nothing ,you have a choice,you continue to play a very defensive system and try and keep the score down,and more than likely lose,losing by a few points is not a victory or progress, only a win is progress.you head home on the team bus you look behind you and see a bus full of very very dedicated,skillful hurlers and you think,what if,what if what if,if only,if only,OR,you head to Croke Park with a bus load of extremely dedicated and skillful hurlers and you think to yourself ,hey I've **** all to lose and every thing to gain ,do you think that the oppositions 15 are not light years ahead of the lads sitting with you on the bus ,what is more important is you decide to go out with a bang ,let those lads hurl because that's what they do ,that's what they have being doing since they were able to hold a hurley ,that's why you picked them in the first place.

Won't happen.we'll leave two up to try cancel out short puckouts and then drop back outside the 40. I really fear for Waterford if we concede and early goal, we haven't seen a plan B since Justin McCarthy!

PTH2009

McGrath signed a contract extension til 2018 last year but the verdict is he will walk Sunday if we suffer a bad defeat ???

I think he deserves to manage us in 2017 win or lose Sunday but changes need to happen

sad to think this may be Bricks last game with us on Sunday too. What a massive servant his was and we will never see his likes again

tomwaterford

PTH2009 wrote: »

McGrath signed a contract extension til 2018 last year but the verdict is he will walk Sunday if we suffer a bad defeat ???

I think he deserves to manage us in 2017 win or lose Sunday but changes need to happen

sad to think this may be Bricks last game with us on Sunday too. What a massive servant his was and we will never see his likes again

Unless they show a willingness to abandon the system. ...why keep repeating same thing year in year out....
There is nothing more infuruating than watching mauricular shanghan running over and back to corner backs trying to stop short puck outs.....it's fcuking stupid. ....we have potentially the best collection of ball winners around half back/midfield to play for waterford .....why are we not trying to force opposition to puck out on top them? ??


Do people think kk aren't going to pump high ball in top of its full forward line and not catch it....but break it out and work like absolute dogs to wiN the breaking ball......the simplicity to beat this system is brilliant



Whoever take over after mcgrath will need at least two years
One to cleanse the worst of the system outta minds (it's not all bad btw)

I'd hate to see two more years wasted at this

robopaddy2

PTH2009 wrote: »

McGrath signed a contract extension til 2018 last year but the verdict is he will walk Sunday if we suffer a bad defeat ???

I think he deserves to manage us in 2017 win or lose Sunday but changes need to happen

sad to think this may be Bricks last game with us on Sunday too. What a massive servant his was and we will never see his likes again

He signed no contract I can tell you that. Being given an additional 2 year term dosen't guarantee anything (Id question the merits of it being extended a year before his first term was up, not like other counties will be queuing up for him)he can still be ousted at anytime. But I think he's going nowhere either way. Our co board traditionally dont sack managers in fact they just keep renewing their terms until they either quit or are ousted (think Davy Fitz, Justin, Skully Ryan).

I guess after Sunday is the time have this discussion depending on how it goes but it really is the last chance for McGrath in the eyes of many of the Waterford public. I think another heavy beating and surely the supporters and even many of the players will have lost complete faith in this system.

robopaddy2

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

i don't doubt that you are correct about the above scores but to imply that Kilkenny simply let teams hurl up to half time is pure nonsense.you are given no credit to the opposing team for actually putting it up to them and then coming out for the second half,if you go back to the three All Ireland's between Tipp and KK you would know what effort it takes to beat KK or Tipp for that matter,its not about 35 minute hurling,it's about 75/78 mins ,KK do not let teams do anything they want, as you might seem to think,also this is not a debate if it was i would surely win hands down,i guess you could say it would be over by half time ,lol,

Yes sure that is exactly what I was trying to say I was speaking from an opposition point of view you will be under the impression that you are in the game at half time but KK will normally hit full tilt in the second half and no matter how well you are playing its hard to live with them

mickmackmcgoo

All we can do at this stage is put our faith in the management and players for Sunday. Make plenty of noise and support them and hope nothing will be left on the field. Kk have a fantastic semi final record and system or no system it's gonna take a special effort to beat them and there's plenty of time to be worrying about managers and contracts etc. Kk have lost matches in the past when no one gave the opposition a chance and maybe Sunday is our day. Up the deise

HillFarmer

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

All we can do at this stage is put our faith in the management and players for Sunday. Make plenty of noise and support them and hope nothing will be left on the field. Kk have a fantastic semi final record and system or no system it's gonna take a special effort to beat them and there's plenty of time to be worrying about managers and contracts etc. Kk have lost matches in the past when no one gave the opposition a chance and maybe Sunday is our day. Up the deise

Well said

HillFarmer

robopaddy2 wrote: »

He signed no contract I can tell you that. Being given an additional 2 year term dosen't guarantee anything (Id question the merits of it being extended a year before his first term was up, not like other counties will be queuing up for him)he can still be ousted at anytime. But I think he's going nowhere either way. Our co board traditionally dont sack managers in fact they just keep renewing their terms until they either quit or are ousted (think Davy Fitz, Justin, Skully Ryan).

I guess after Sunday is the time have this discussion depending on how it goes but it really is the last chance for McGrath in the eyes of many of the Waterford public. I think another heavy beating and surely the supporters and even many of the players will have lost complete faith in this system.

I'm not sure what your smoking but to say Mgrath doesn't deserve another term is madness.

The team has one poor game against Tipp and people start calling for his head.

League final two years running and two Munster finals with a very young team. he's done exceptional so far and I for one will back him for another term if thats what he wants.

Roll on Sunday

Horseboxhead

is it just me, or has this year been a huge struggle ?. Looked so much more, after beating Clare in the first round, but by getting Literally Pissed on [Performence and Weather], in Munster final, Wexford was a borefest, year seems to have been going on for ever, nice shade of colour added by the u-21's, help lift it a little, But i must admitt if the wife said nah lets give sunday a skip, for the first time since circa '82 / '83 [when i first realised the joy of being from and following Waterford Hurling], i'd think about it long and Hard, I've played and followed hurling all my life, its the greatest game ever invented, and i have no problem with the game changing or evolving, from Galways running game, to offaly's natural off the cuff style, to cork changing the running game and making it their own, to the joy of seeing a waterford team able to compete on a stage that i could have never imagined 10 years prior to that, to seeing some of the greatest exponents of this game that is almost exclusivly ours as a people, and being lucky enough that some of them happened to be local, and friends of mine, and to have hurled with them and against, ah the joy in that, but in all that time, the game was evolving and changing it was made better and the emphasis was always to Play the game with a sence of joy and expression , and to win No doubt , but to do it by putting something back, to think about how the next generation will add something but in the right spirit from which the game should be played.
I read all the time how Waterford has to play this way to win the ultimate, to make us MORE COMPETIVE, to Nullify the weaknesses, to stop leaking goals, to give the players the confidence of consistancy, blah blah blah, but all i see is a half baked ideoligy based on negativity and mistrust, theres no joy in it, and the players we have at this moment in time, are actually the Real golden generation, as they are all successfull underage, and consistantly so, not just flash in the pan's once in a lifetime stuff, so why are we really playing this way, and who are we protecting ?, its just smoke in a bottle, win on sunday Like this and i will be delighted as i would never hope for anything but a Waterford win, but this is not us, and i would not swap the last 32/33 years with any other supporter in any other county, but this is joyless , monotonous , grind it out, claustrophobic ****e, with no payoff against side's that we would beat anyway, Stephen Bennett in Walsh Park two weeks ago with one moment of absolute genius, held a mirror up to what the senior Management consider all that is wrong with the game, it was risky and brave and was game winning, and i could turn to my boy and say see that, that's it there, that's our game, won't even start on sunday, and if he does[Injury], he will be asked to play a game that was not designed for him or his like in mind, hope we win, but am really for the first time ever bored with watching Hurling.

Ropaire

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'm not sure what your smoking but to say Mgrath doesn't deserve another term is madness.

The team has one poor game against Tipp and people start calling for his head.

League final two years running and two Munster finals with a very young team. he's done exceptional so far and I for one will back him for another term if thats what he wants.

Roll on Sunday

I never wanted him in the job in the first place, but credit where it's due he has done well. I wanted him out after his first year because that was the worst I've ever seen any team play, absolutely shocking to watch.

Last year was negative, but a big improvement and I saw the foundation for a good team put down. I thought he'd do a Jim McGuinness on it and evolve more of an attacking approach without compromising a solid defense this year. He hasn't though, he's way too cautious and way too conservative.

Any time he's tried anything different and it hasn't worked he reverts to an even more negative gameplan. First time I saw it was a challenge vs Limerick at the start of the year, we went more orthodox and weren't used to it. We started shipping scores, immediately reverted back to sweeper, etc and looked alot more comfortable. In a challenge match! When we should be trying stuff out. We don't have any plan B or a management who are interested in a plan B. The team now knows no other way to play as a result.

I really wanted this system to evolve this year, play a few more bodies further up the field, get some interplay between our forwards going like we can on the backs and try and get a balance between not leaking a shedload of goals and being able to stick a few ourselves. Even when we have Paddy Curran in great positions one pass away from a score lads lopk at him amd tap pver their own point instead of trying to take a goal on. Where is that order coming from? Derek says he encourages Gleeson to try hail marys from all directions, we have forwards with that kind of stuff going on cos he doesn't need them, just more defenders.

I'd happily leave Derek in there for another year if I thought he could do that, or was interested in trying to bring us on a bit more but I think his own fear of getting a beating is holding him back. Unless he has some master stroke up his sleeve come Sunday I'd be inclined to see who else we could put in there next year. If it was rugby we could keep him as a defence coach, which he's very good at, and slap a director of rugby in above him.

danganabu

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'm not sure what your smoking but to say Mgrath doesn't deserve another term is madness.

The team has one poor game against Tipp and people start calling for his head.

League final two years running and two Munster finals with a very young team. he's done exceptional so far and I for one will back him for another term if thats what he wants.

Roll on Sunday

After Sunday he will have had three years and have set out his stall of playing a modified system in order to bridge the gap to Kilkenny and Tipp and in the three games against those opposition since, they have been beaten by a combined total of 30 points, all this while possessing one of the most exciting group of players to have ever come out of Waterford is a pretty damning statistic.

League finals and beatings in Munster Finals, if you're happy with that lot fine, because that's the glass ceiling it wont get any better under such a rigid and restrictive system.

A win Sunday or a gallant effort showing signs of an evolution of tactics should be all that saves McGrath.

HillFarmer

I won't argue that I do find the tactics too negative but I'd still like to give him a chance to tweek it.

Lets see what happens Sunday but my two pence worth is i think he's a fantastic manager, the players have faith in him and lets get behind him for this weekend.

Don't forget he dropped a lot of established stars to bring the current young lot, that took balls, but it was the right decision.

danganabu

HillFarmer wrote: »

I won't argue that I do find the tactics too negative but I'd still like to give him a chance to tweek it.

Lets see what happens Sunday but my two pence worth is i think he's a fantastic manager, the players have faith in him and lets get behind him for this weekend.

Don't forget he dropped a lot of established stars to bring the current young lot, that took balls, but it was the right decision.

Agree that this is all very premature but the very fact that pretty every single poster here has conceded defeat speaks volumes, especially when you consider the positivity that was here pre munster final.

Whiplash85

Best of luck to Waterford on Sunday. Hopefully it will be a great game. Its supposed to be a scorcher so I think the respective subs benches could have a big bearing on the outcome if its anyway tight after 50 minutes.

JeffKenna

HillFarmer wrote: »

I won't argue that I do find the tactics too negative but I'd still like to give him a chance to tweek it.

Lets see what happens Sunday but my two pence worth is i think he's a fantastic manager, the players have faith in him and lets get behind him for this weekend.

Don't forget he dropped a lot of established stars to bring the current young lot, that took balls, but it was the right decision.

Lets not also forget he possibly has the best group of Waterford players at his disposal with a generation. This should also up the expectation placed upon him. Its not as if his getting to league and munster finals with a poor squad.

tomwaterford

HillFarmer wrote: »

I won't argue that I do find the tactics too negative but I'd still like to give him a chance to tweek it.

Lets see what happens Sunday but my two pence worth is i think he's a fantastic manager, the players have faith in him and lets get behind him for this weekend.

Don't forget he dropped a lot of established stars to bring the current young lot, that took balls, but it was the right decision.

And if we get beat by kk in 2nd gear??
How many years more would you give him???



It was sick to my stomach in limerick.....7 points down with 30 mins to go and knowing they hadn't the know how to reel it it and the match was up


Ive defended the system more than anyone. ...but the game is up for it and it's brought us as far as it can

HillFarmer

tomwaterford wrote: »

And if we get beat by kk in 2nd gear??
How many years more would you give him???



It was sick to my stomach in limerick.....7 points down with 30 mins to go and knowing they hadn't the know how to reel it it and the match was up


Ive defended the system more than anyone. ...but the game is up for it and it's brought us as far as it can

Hold fire, lets see what happens Sunday, cant wait!

Bluezar

JeffKenna wrote: »

Lets not also forget he possibly has the best group of Waterford players at his disposal with a generation. This should also up the expectation placed upon him. Its not as if his getting to league and munster finals with a poor squad.

This is definitely a great team in the making but best of their generation?
Our team that was competing from 2002 onwards would surely beat this team with the likes of Ken Mc Grath, Browne, Mullane and Dan Shanahan?

danganabu

Bluezar wrote: »

This is definitely a great team in the making but best of their generation?
Our team that was competing from 2002 onwards would surely beat this team with the likes of Ken Mc Grath, Browne, Mullane and Dan Shanahan?

More depth in the current squad but your right that they have along way to go to reach that level, but will they be given the chance is the worry.

Paul Flynn >>>> Dan as well, imo of course!

Dick phelan

Mcgrath deserves another term if we loose Sunday provided it's not a repeat of the Tipp display, Give him another year and see if he tweeks the system, if there is no progress next year then i don't think anyone would want to give him another year, in fairness whatever about the style results wise he's done as well as most would have expected if not better a NL and Final, 2 MF and 2 SF considering the shambles of 2014 is solid but i think the system has been found out and it won't win us an AI so hopefully Derek realizes that after Sunday.

Dick phelan

danganabu wrote: »

More depth in the current squad but your right that they have along way to go to reach that level, but will they be given the chance is the worry.

Paul Flynn >>>> Dan as well, imo of course!

Yeah plus the likes of Brick, Eoin Kelly and Prendergast, An absolute shame that team never won an AI, just as good as Cork at the time and a few of them won 3 AI's.

cornerboy

Just an observation but compared to other years there are very few flags, buntings etc out.........that is in Dungarvan anyway.
No cars with flags no sense that we are in an AI semi final.
Are we resigned to our fate?

HillFarmer

No, We will win on Sunday.