Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

con89

http://www.punditarena.com/gaa/scremin/tribute-tuesday-waterford-paul-flynn/

Gavlor

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

How's everyone getting on with tickets? Absolute muck on tickets.ie! Might have to go terrace if nothing improves.

Club allocations going out tomorrow, wait till Thursday evening before buying any online

run_Forrest_run

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

How's everyone getting on with tickets? Absolute muck on tickets.ie! Might have to go terrace if nothing improves.

total muck the quality of the tickets. I wasn't happy with the seats last week but decided to grab one anyway assuming they would be getting worse, and that is what happened. I see they are now offering section 311 in the lower Cusack, right in the corner. What's annoying is you are paying the same price as someone bang centre.

But maybe it's just the fact that tickets are selling fast, a friend of mine bought his a few days earlier than me and he got very good seats.

Giveitfong

The general response of Waterford supporters to the win over Wexford seems to have been very negative. The main reasons for this were the poor shooting (continuing on from the Munster final) and the complete absence of a goal threat.

However, there were also positive aspects of the Waterford performance which need to be acknowledged. Apart from a brief period in the middle of the second half, Waterford dominated the game to the extent that they had 45 shots at goal to just 25 for Wexford. The Waterford defence, once again, played well on the day. People have been dismissing Wexford as being useless, but perhaps it was a case of a useful Wexford team being totally outplayed by a much better Déise outfit. Any defence which holds a forward line containing Conor McDonald, Lee Chin, Liam Óg McGovern and David Dunne to 11 points deserves a lot of credit.

However, the fact remains that, despite some excellent individual scores, Waterford generally made poor use of their dominant share of possession. They won 15 of their own 18 puckouts (Wexford did not win a Waterford puckout until the 54th minute). Of Wexford’s 39 puckouts, 33 were long puckouts, and Waterford won 18 of these.

This means Waterford had a lot of possession in the midfield area but they had no strategy on how to use it. In the first half, playing with the wind, the first option was to have a potshot for a score from way out the field. In that half, Waterford attempted no less than 14 shots from their own half of the field (including five frees, all missed) from which they got just two points. This is crazy stuff.

A major factor in these long-distance misses was an inability to gauge the wind which was blowing towards the left-hand corner in the first half. Of 13 wide shots in that half, eight went left of the post (all four of Wexford’s second half wide shots also went to the left). Playing against the wind, the wind was blowing balls to the right of the post. Between them, the two teams hit 9 wides against the wind, of which six went right.

Thus, of 26 wide shots in total, 18 went to the side towards which the wind was blowing. I have been going on here for a long time about the need for the team mentors to send someone out before games to gauge which way the wind is blowing and to advise the players accordingly before they go out on the field. A lot of players seem to be unable to figure the wind out and are unable to adjust accordingly.

Of Waterford’s 45 shots, only 19 (22%) were from inside the 45 metre line. However, these yielded 15 (71%) of Waterford’s scores. This points to the importance of working the ball into scoring positions inside the opposition 45 metre line (as Tipperary did in the Munster final). An inability to do this systematically has been Waterford’s key failing since Derek McGrath took over as manager. Last year Waterford were good at working the ball out of defence but once the ball was moved to midfield players were either shooting from distance or putting hopeless balls into the full forward line (most of which was usually missing).

This year the neat stick passing in their own half of the field which was a feature of the team last year seems to have gone missing. Wexford did a lot more of this than Waterford last week. Maybe opposing teams are pushing up on the full backs, thereby preventing short puckouts, or maybe Waterford are relying more on long puckouts to gain possession. Whether or which, the fact is that Waterford had a lot of possession in the midfield area against Wexford. However, time and again Waterford players in this area opted to go long rather than pass to team-mates in better positions. This included frequent hitting of blind balls where the player hitting the ball has no clear view of where it is going (and which usually goes to opposing players). Other counties such as Kilkenny, Tipperary and Clare will not give the ball away cheaply like this, and will happily recycle balls and start again rather than hitting low-percentage balls.

If Waterford are going to continue to flood the midfield area with players with just one player (normally) up front, then they need a more sophisticated strategy to get the ball to pacy players able to bring the ball deep into opposition territory. Cork were very good at using the speedy Cathal Naughton in this way. We have lots of pacy forwards in Shane Bennett, Brian O’Halloran and Colin Dunford and we need to make more use of this pace. At the moment, these players tend to get little enough possession, and when they do it appears to be more by accident than design.

Ultimately, in my view, the policy of flooding midfield represents atrocious misuse of the forwards at our disposal. I have no problem with playing a sweeper, especially since Tadhg de Búrca is the best in the business. But we need to constantly keep at least two players in the forward line, and the two players in question have to be Patrick Curran and Stephen Bennett, who not only are individually deadly around the goal but also have a great understanding of each other. Patrick Curran must be the most frustrated player in the Waterford camp as he keeps taking up great scoring positions looking for passes that never come, because laying off the ball to better-placed team-mates is not part of the current Waterford bible.

It should also be obvious from the last two under-21 games that Austin Gleeson’s most effective position is at centre back, a position from which he can dominate games, as he showed the other night in Walsh Park. Apart from this own scoring exploits, he was also much more constructive in his use of the ball than in previous games. And with de Búrca behind him, he should have full licence to move forward when the circumstances warrant it.

Returning to the Wexford match, Kevin Moran was a deserved man of the match as he had more possessions (20) than any other player on the team. Moreover, these were equally divided between halves, reflecting the constancy of his performance throughout the game. Next in line were Philip Mahony and Austin Gleeson with 17 possessions, but whereas Gleeson’s were equally divided, 12 of Philip’s possessions came in the second half when his influence on the game was much greater. His brother Padraic also had a quiet first half (3 possessions) but put in a strong contribution after the break with 9 possessions. Jamie Barron (14), Tadhg de Búrca (13) and Shane Fives (12) were also to the fore in the possession stakes. It might be observed that Brick Walsh had very few possessions – just four in the first half and two in the second.

Special mention should be made of Conor Gleeson’s excellent contribution when thrown in at the deep end when Darragh Fives (who had started very strongly) went off in the 12th minute. In an extraordinarily assured display, Gleeson’s tackling and constructive use of the ball were outstanding. However, with Darragh Fives now injured, Waterford are very thin for defensive cover, especially with Shane McNulty also out injured.

Deise2016

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

total muck the quality of the tickets. I wasn't happy with the seats last week but decided to grab one anyway assuming they would be getting worse, and that is what happened. I see they are now offering section 311 in the lower Cusack, right in the corner. What's annoying is you are paying the same price as someone bang centre.

But maybe it's just the fact that tickets are selling fast, a friend of mine bought his a few days earlier than me and he got very good seats.

Ye are buying tickets too early lads.

They sell the ''bad tickets'' first and better ones come available later in the week

Jjjjjjjbarry

Just got a ticket on the 45 yard line so happy enough. Better tickets up now so go go go

mountgomery burns

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

total muck the quality of the tickets. I wasn't happy with the seats last week but decided to grab one anyway assuming they would be getting worse, and that is what happened. I see they are now offering section 311 in the lower Cusack, right in the corner. What's annoying is you are paying the same price as someone bang centre.

But maybe it's just the fact that tickets are selling fast, a friend of mine bought his a few days earlier than me and he got very good seats.

This will be a poorly attended game I would think so cannot see that being the reason.

PTH2009

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

total muck the quality of the tickets. I wasn't happy with the seats last week but decided to grab one anyway assuming they would be getting worse, and that is what happened. I see they are now offering section 311 in the lower Cusack, right in the corner. What's annoying is you are paying the same price as someone bang centre.

But maybe it's just the fact that tickets are selling fast, a friend of mine bought his a few days earlier than me and he got very good seats.

The GAA are expecting there first full house of the Championship the day before our game for the football qfs next saturday. Both Attendences for last weekends football double headers together would not of filled the place

As for our game i think the attendence will be somewhat around 30-33000. Kilkenny supporters dont travel in huge numbers til the final, Many Waterford fans expect us to be beaten well so some wont travel and with the under 21 all ireland series coming up too people will want to save money for that. Limerick/Dublin may bring a couple 1000 for the minor game

Im in the Cusack Lower Section 308 (was in 307 for bruce springsteen last may and the view was good). Love to be sitting in the upper sections (the view is unbeatable especially in the Middle sections of the Cusack and Hogan stands) but expecting them areas to be closed on Sunday. Had brillent views in 2013/2014 for the Minor semi finals vs Kilkenny from the Upper Cusack

Attendence at last years Waterford vs Kilkenny Semi was 41,112

ObiwanKenoby

Wise words from my Jedi master - this is the only way to defeat the dark side...

Ken McGrath: Waterford must be let off the leash

Former Waterford star Ken McGrath believes the current squad, if allowed to fully express themselves, can put it up to Kilkenny in next Sunday's All-Ireland SHC semi-final at Croke Park.
Under Derek McGrath, Waterford have re-joined hurling's top table. Yet there is that sense that there is more in them. Amid all the talk of systems and sweepers, many are now calling on McGrath to allow his players play with a bit more freedom.
Speaking to RTÉ Sport, he said: "They should be lot of the leash to play a bit more. It’s something I’ve said openly for the last year or two. Hopefully it might happen on Sunday and we’ll see then what they are really capable of.
"We have the hurlers, top class stickmen, so let them a have a proper go.
"Our championship record is poor against Kilkenny but that’s going to have to change sometime. You have to have a crack off them. You won’t beat Kilkenny by holding back. Go one on one with them.
"The players have to trust themselves. We’re capable of giving Kilkenny and right good game and a right good fright.
In what for most observers is a common sense approach, he Mount Sion clubman added that Waterford will have to deploy more numbers in attack.
"You’ll beat some of the second-tier teams leaving one or two inside but you won’t beat the likes of Kilkenny or Tipperary playing doing that," he revealed.
"Kilkenny are the masters of closing down space. If we leave one inside the ’45 on his own then we’ll be eaten.
"You have to go at them a bit more and that’s what this team need to do."
With a number of the senior squad involved in the U-21 set up, McGrath feels the manner by which the latter achieved their success this summer shows what they county can achieve.
"The U-21 win shows we have the hurlers that are capable of opening up any team if we go at them," he opined.
"I think the confidence and belief gained from the win over Tipperary in the final last week will help the seniors. They really went at Tipperary in that game, played 15 on 15.
"I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a bit of a bite in Waterford on Sunday – a bit of a change on what we’ve seen before. We have to be able to test the Kilkenny full-back line."

robopaddy2

No one should be worrying about tickets. That stadium won't be half full on Sunday. Ive often walked up and got tickets at the ticket centre on the day and they were no worse than the ones on the websites

As for the approach to the game I think we all back Ken McGrath's sentiment 100% but were deluding ourselves if we think thats going to happen. Its a bad sign of the times when were not dreaming about beating KK but just dreaming about seeing us go 15 v 15 against them. KK are a second half team, weve seen over the past couple seasons they'll often leave you in it until half time but emerge after the break a different animal and just pulverise teams. If we were still with them until half time then maybe early in the second half would be the time to unleash something different and try catch them off guard a bit.

DE DEISE

Cody Cautious of Deise Challange .
YEAH RIGHT !

PTH2009

DE DEISE wrote: »

Cody Cautious of Deise Challange .
YEAH RIGHT !

He's hardly going to come out and say 'Waterford are going to be no challenge and we will win no problem'

Derek and Davy are the kings of talking up teams too

The Antrim under 21s will be talked up in the build up to the semi by the Waterford management 'They beat a good Wexford team in 2013, won't fear anyone, all Ireland winning club sides from the county' etc.

Looking forward to Sunday

conditioned games

Could be the end of the road for this current management team on Sunday if they exit the championship lamely. The statistic from the Wexford game as mentioned already where only 22% of shots on goal came from inside the 45 metre line but yielded 71% of Waterford s scores is fairly damming. Playing a sweeper and then also taking full forwards back to midfield is too far negative and wont beat the likes of Tipp or KK in championship. I'd like to see Stephen Bennett and Curran up front and not have to go out the field when sweeper is been used but its very unlikely that will happen.

cul beag

conditioned games wrote: »

Could be the end of the road for this current management team on Sunday if they exit the championship lamely. The statistic from the Wexford game as mentioned already where only 22% of shots on goal came from inside the 45 metre line but yielded 71% of Waterford s scores is fairly damming. Playing a sweeper and then also taking full forwards back to midfield is too far negative and wont beat the likes of Tipp or KK in championship. I'd like to see Stephen Bennett and Curran up front and not have to go out the field when sweeper is been used but its very unlikely that will happen.

But what if we put in a tremendous performance and just pipped at the post? What then? Do we give them another vote of confidence?

hurler on de ditch

robopaddy2 wrote: »

No one should be worrying about tickets. That stadium won't be half full on Sunday. Ive often walked up and got tickets at the ticket centre on the day and they were no worse than the ones on the websites

As for the approach to the game I think we all back Ken McGrath's sentiment 100% but were deluding ourselves if we think thats going to happen. Its a bad sign of the times when were not dreaming about beating KK but just dreaming about seeing us go 15 v 15 against them. KK are a second half team, weve seen over the past couple seasons they'll often leave you in it until half time but emerge after the break a different animal and just pulverise teams. If we were still with them until half time then maybe early in the second half would be the time to unleash something different and try catch them off guard a bit.

seriously is this what you really think, KK are a second half team, weve seen over the past couple seasons they'll often leave you in it until half time but emerge after the break a different animal and just pulverise teams.And what do you base that assumption on?plus i'd hate to drag up old wounds but your spelling are punctuation are horrendous!.

Deise2016

Any tips for parking/best way to travel up etc.

Usually get a bus but driving this time.

Appreciate any advice. Thanks.

conditioned games

cul beag wrote: »

But what if we put in a tremendous performance and just pipped at the post? What then? Do we give them another vote of confidence?

Don't know, not really a conversation I want before the game. Let's see how it goes first but a big improvement is needed based on the last 2 outings for sure.

Jjjjjjjbarry

Deise2016 wrote: »

Any tips for parking/best way to travel up etc.

Usually get a bus but driving this time.

Appreciate any advice. Thanks.

Park and Ride LUAS Red Cow.. Get up early to make sure you get parking there though. Easy to drive to and no city hassle.

Or depending where you're coming from, you could park in Bray or Maynooth and get DART in.

I don't venture further but I'm sure there are probably good places more direct. There's a place called Clonliffe College near Croke Park which is popular too.

redlead

conditioned games wrote: »

Don't know, not really a conversation I want before the game. Let's see how it goes first but a big improvement is needed based on the last 2 outings for sure.

If they go out and play the same against Kilkenny you'd have to think they should go after we lose. Every dog on the street knows we don't have a hope of beating Kilkenny with the current system. It's going to be very frustrating losing this by five or six points knowing we didn't give it a proper go. How many times does the system have to fail badly against Tipp and Kilkenny for us to learn? Please, please play with at least five forwards!!!

tomwaterford

redlead wrote: »

If they go out and play the same against Kilkenny you'd have to think they should go after we lose. Every dog on the street knows we don't have a hope of beating Kilkenny with the current system. It's going to be very frustrating losing this by five or six points knowing we didn't give it a proper go. How many times does the system have to fail badly against Tipp and Kilkenny for us to learn? Please, please play with at least five forwards!!!

I'd hate to becoming home Sunday evening wondering what if.....go full tilt at them and we on paper at least have a chance



Anyone any word on injuries

3ships

Don't think McGrath will change that much. Conor Gleeson and prob Stephen Bennett in for Dara Fives and Shane Bennett. Maybe the lads will make it. If Dara Fives has a quad tear he is def out, if it is a strain he could make it. Shane Bennett may well have been on crutches but that may just make it sound worse than it is. He got a knock in the U21 game but still played on for a while after so we'll see.

Given the conservative nature of selections the team will be:

SOK

C Gleeson
B Coughlin
N Connors

S Fives
TdeB
Ph Mahony

J Barron
K Moran

Brick
Pauric
A Gleeson

St Bennett
Maurice Shan
Pat Curran

That looks a decent team to me.
Problems are the lack of height at the back, The combined legs of Brick, Pauric Mahony and the general form of Maurice. We seem without Dunford's pace not to get up the pitch as well as before. The games against Tipp in the league and Clare in the Championship looked like progress but we have been rocked back by Tipp in the Munster Final and are now a bit unsure of what we are doing. Having not much to aim at up front harks back to the early days of the system.

With the confidence gained from the U21 performances and lessons learned and without straying too far from what we seen already with Derek McGrath the team could line out as

SOK

Sh Fives
B Coughlin
N Connors

..........the original FB line with Conor Gleeson an excellent option off bench if needed

A Gleeson
Tde B
K Moran

....best we can do as far as aerial ability and all played there before. Aussie could plough on from the wing without leaving the centre open

J Barron
Ph Mahony

...tidy and efficient in close quarters, Philip can cover HB if needed and both can and will score

Devine
Pauric
Maurice

..Tom Devine ready now to come in for Brick seems a better option in terms of scoring and curtailing Buckley. Pauric can play 11 and Maurice adds height for puck outs and may get into the game there.

Pat Curran
St Bennett
C Dunford

...obvious enough and Colin can go out around the middle to add some legs there

On the bench jake and BOH did well the last day and Brick can come in for a late cameo if a steady head is needed...........and shur if Dara Fives and Shane Bennett are fit its GAME ON!!!!

robopaddy2

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

seriously is this what you really think, KK are a second half team, weve seen over the past couple seasons they'll often leave you in it until half time but emerge after the break a different animal and just pulverise teams.And what do you base that assumption on?plus i'd hate to drag up old wounds but your spelling are punctuation are horrendous!.

Well Kilkenny's last 3 championship games for starters. Leinster final; Galway leading by 4 at half time, KK won by 7. All Ireland final, Galway leading by 4 at half time, KK win by 4. AI Semi final last year; we were still only 2 points behind at half time. Within 5 minutes of the restart it was curtains. I certainly won't be getting carried away at half time on Sunday if were within touching distance.

Thanks for the feedback on spelling and punctuation, a sure sign that your winning a debate is when all the other guy can come up with is to knit-pick on your spelling mistakes so cheers buddy!

Assuming we have a full selection would like to see a team of:

SOK
Shane Fives Coughlan Connors
Philip Mahony De Burca Darragh Fives
Moran Barron
Brick Shane Bennett Austin
Dunford Shanahan Stephen Bennett

Play 15 on 15.
Fast ball into the full forward line, midfield in particular cutting out the constant soloing.
Forwards to run at and take on the kk backs.
Brick there to have a ball winner in the half forward line, Devine can come in for him when he tires. Gleeson and Shane Bennett to take on there backs when they get possession. They have the beatings of Joyce and Walsh when they run at them (both have far superior pace).
Maurice on the edge of the square. Holden struggled against a big man (Conlan) earlier in the year. Dunford in the corner to take on Pendergast/Lennon whenever he gets the chance. Again a fast forward against slowish backs. Bennett in the corner over P Curran due to form but Curran to replace him or Dunford in the 2nd half.
Waterford can definetly win this match but only by playing 15v15, keeping their shape and running at the kk defence.

HillFarmer

tomwaterford wrote: »

I'd hate to becoming home Sunday evening wondering what if.....go full tilt at them and we on paper at least have a chance



Anyone any word on injuries

I'd equally hate being down 3 or 4 goals by halftime with the game over.
If we go 15 on 15, Kilkenny will eat us up. Reid on Coughlan, all that space, with the likes of Hogan etc.

Our forwards are good to be fair, but the likes of Curran on Murphy, their not mature enough yet in my opinion.

I would like us to change from ultra defensive, but not go all out 15 on 15.
In my view we're not ready for that yet. U21 is a big difference to Senior.

hurler on de ditch

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Well Kilkenny's last 3 championship games for starters. Leinster final; Galway leading by 4 at half time, KK won by 7. All Ireland final, Galway leading by 4 at half time, KK win by 4. AI Semi final last year; we were still only 2 points behind at half time. Within 5 minutes of the restart it was curtains. I certainly won't be getting carried away at half time on Sunday if were within touching distance.

Thanks for the feedback on spelling and punctuation, a sure sign that your winning a debate is when all the other guy can come up with is to knit-pick on your spelling mistakes so cheers buddy!

i don't doubt that you are correct about the above scores but to imply that Kilkenny simply let teams hurl up to half time is pure nonsense.you are given no credit to the opposing team for actually putting it up to them and then coming out for the second half,if you go back to the three All Ireland's between Tipp and KK you would know what effort it takes to beat KK or Tipp for that matter,its not about 35 minute hurling,it's about 75/78 mins ,KK do not let teams do anything they want, as you might seem to think,also this is not a debate if it was i would surely win hands down,i guess you could say it would be over by half time ,lol,

hurler on de ditch

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'd equally hate being down 3 or 4 goals by halftime with the game over.
If we go 15 on 15, Kilkenny will eat us up. Reid on Coughlan, all that space, with the likes of Hogan etc.

Our forwards are good to be fair, but the likes of Curran on Murphy, their not mature enough yet in my opinion.

I would like us to change from ultra defensive, but not go all out 15 on 15.
In my view we're not ready for that yet. U21 is a big difference to Senior.

when will we be ready ?

danganabu

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'd equally hate being down 3 or 4 goals by halftime with the game over.
If we go 15 on 15, Kilkenny will eat us up. Reid on Coughlan, all that space, with the likes of Hogan etc.

Our forwards are good to be fair, but the likes of Curran on Murphy, their not mature enough yet in my opinion.

I would like us to change from ultra defensive, but not go all out 15 on 15.
In my view we're not ready for that yet. U21 is a big difference to Senior.

So you think his best chance is to go up against P Murphy, J Holden and R Lennon!

Waterford if they play 15 v 15 or even a conventional sweeper system would imo have a 20-33% chance of winning ( this would be higher if they had been playing that way for longer) and if they lineup as they did in the Munster Final they have about a 2% chance of winning.

Derek McGrath's job is to win, not to dictate the margin of defeat, someone needs to spell this out to him. Walking out of the U21 final I met a friend from Waterford and congratulated him, but the first thing I said to him was how frustrating it must be to see that second half performance and then realise that these lads are been completely stifled at senior level.

HillFarmer

danganabu wrote: »

So you think his best chance is to go up against P Murphy, J Holden and R Lennon!

Waterford if they play 15 v 15 or even a conventional sweeper system would imo have a 20-33% chance of winning ( this would be higher if they had been playing that way for longer) and if they lineup as they did in the Munster Final they have about a 2% chance of winning.

Derek McGrath's job is to win, not to dictate the margin of defeat, someone needs to spell this out to him. Walking out of the U21 final I met a friend from Waterford and congratulated him, but the first thing I said to him was how frustrating it must be to see that second half performance and then realise that these lads are been completely stifled at senior level.

You have to look at the full picture, if you go 15 on 15, our defence is not strong enough to cope. Personally I don't think Coughlan is a intercounty fullback capable of handling the likes of Reid and Co. We've played with a lot of cover the last 2 years and now here people are calling for 15 on 15 and to just change.

Absolute madness. sure throw 5 up forward and play with a sweeper,that would be more attacking than we have done this year but to go just 6 at the back we wouldn't be competitive.

How many of our forwards would win their own battle against that Kilkenny defence?


Look I miss the Waterford flair of old like everyone, but I don't think that will win us the game on Sunday.

HillFarmer

One thing I did notice looking back at the videos is the position of Patrick Curran at times. He took up several good goal scoring positions when we had possession close to the KK goal.

A bit of vision and one good pass and he was through.
if we do push up a bit, I'd like to see Curran start, I thought he was sharp for the U21's.

I'd only play Stephen Bennet if the tactic was to keep him in the full forward line, as in that position he's lethal, however further out, I'm not sure his striking is top notch.

Anyone close to the Squad, I'm also wondering why Dunford hasn't started recently, was he injured or just down the pecking order?


Selection is starting to get more difficult especially seeing some of the performances of the U21 guys.

Teams announced Friday night?

danganabu

HillFarmer wrote: »

if we do push up a bit, I'd like to see Curran start, I thought he was sharp for the U21's.

He was destroyed in the first half when in the corner and only started to flourish when he cam out to the wing.