Russian military jets 'disrupted UK aviation'

expectationlost

In December, Swedish authorities said a Russian military jet nearly collided with a commercial passenger airplane in international airspace near southern Sweden which had just taken off from Copenhagen airport in neighboring Denmark. It was bound for Poznan in Poland.

Russia’s ambassador to Sweden responded to the allegation by suggesting Swedish officials had been smoking marijuana.

Danish Foreign Minister Martin Lidegaard said it was “completely unacceptable that civilian lives are put in danger in this way.”

The Swedish military said the Russian plane was flying with its transponder switched off, rendering it difficult to spot by civilian air traffic control.

Aviation convention is that military planes may fly without emitting identification signals when crossing international airspace, but only as long as the pilots show consideration to other flights nearby.

Finland’s government has said it wants so-called “dark flights” discussed at the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/01/30/world/russian-bomber-planes-disrupt-u-k-civil-aviation-in-significant-escalation/#.VPX9j46o3Is

expectationlost

While civilian flights must fly with their transponders on at all times, military flights are allowed to turn them off when flying in international air space as long as they show consideration to other flights.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/15/sweden-russia-airplane-idUSL6N0TZ2X420141215

this is the Chicago ICAO convention http://www.icao.int/publications/Documents/7300_cons.pdf is this rule in here?

or is some sort of unwritten protocal or (small c) convention?

expectationlost

Russia is solving the problems connected with the dangerous proximity of the NATO’s and Russian aircraft with the alliance through bilateral channels, said Russia’s permanent representative to NATO Alexander Grushko.

NATO has repeatedly stated that the air activity of Russia increased last year, forcing NATO aircraft to fly 400 times to “intercept” Russian combat aircraft.

“With regard to the rules of military flights, they are carried out by the Russian military aircraft in full compliance with the ICAO standards, transponders are not used by military aircraft of NATO as well, but the routes are laid in order not to create any obstacles to international commercial communication,” – said Grushko.

https://defencerussia.wordpress.com/2015/02/06/moscow-discussing-hazardous-proximity-of-alliances-and-russian-aircraft-with-nato/

expectationlost

this is Russia Today's take on the Irish Examiner report of the IAA report

Russian Riverdance: Flying 'bears' have the Irish hopping

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/573135359997038593

Russian bombers disrupted commercial airline flights – Irish authorities http://rt.com/news/237533-russian-bombers-ireland-disruption/

al22

If I remember it correct, Russians decreased military flights after 1991.

Since then NATO now have 127 or 128 military airbases along the Russian borders, some are closer than UK from Ireland. In response Russia announced officially they will return to air activity as it was before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Last week in Estonia NATO forces were marching in the Estonian town of Narva. That is only 300 yards from Russian territory - Narva divided in two parts by the river, one part of this town is Estonian, other is Russian.


Last year Swedes were hunting Russian submarine for a few weeks, found nothing. but increased their military spending/budget. As soon as ivreased budget was approvd, the hunt for a submarine was ended.

This high is probably can be to ask more money for army.

Military training and patrol flights were, are and will - by every side.

expectationlost

don't worry we got new radar

de biz

That is the PAR installation,good find.

No audio though for me....

expectationlost

Russia's 'Dark' Warplanes Are Spooking Europe Bloomberg http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-09/russia-s-dark-warplanes-are-spooking-europe

Two Russian bombers, flying with their transponders turned off to avoid detection, swooped so close to the Irish coast that Dublin's control tower delayed the takeoff of one passenger plane and ordered another to alter its route to steer clear of the bombers.

The Convention on International Civil Aviation, which sets the ground rules for air travel worldwide, does not "cover the operation of equipment on military aircraft," according to a spokesman for the Montreal-based ICAO.

Russia's air maneuvers are upsetting an unwritten agreement, in place since the end of the Cold War, that military planes will generally use transponders when flying near civilian air corridors. Even in international airspace, it's "standard practice" for NATO and other Western air forces to keep their transponders on, except on combat or intelligence missions, says Justin Bronk, a military analyst at the Royal United Services Institute in London. "Flying around with your transponder off in broad daylight is a deliberate provocation."

isn't that what these mission are intelligence missions?

Even without transponders, the Russian planes can still be seen on radar. And while radar provides less-detailed information than a transponder signal would, some Russian aircraft are easy to identify. The Tu-95 bombers that approached Ireland "are extremely obvious on radar," Bronk says. "They're old, they have huge wings and propellers." Because NATO members share their radar data, it's likely that alliance members had been tracking the planes long before they neared Ireland. (Ireland isn't a NATO member and doesn't have an air force, so Britain scrambled fighter jets to shadow the planes.)

expectationlost

here updating map from European Leadership Network https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zuYQQjbk2yqY.keUJQxu7jKGY&authuser=0 via http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-11-10/putins-war-games-are-setting-off-alarms-worldwide and http://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/dangerous-brinkmanship-close-military-encounters-between-russia-and-the-west-in-2014_2101.html

doesn't show jan or october though

expectationlost

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015032400008?opendocument

122. Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl asked the Minister for Defence Information on Simon Coveney Zoom on Simon Coveney if he is satisfied that the Air Corps is capable of dealing with unauthorised incursions into Irish airspace by military aircraft from other countries; the action he took on foot of recent developments involving military aircraft from other countries; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11698/15]

what military action does Sean O'Fearghail want to aircraft flying in international airspace.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl: This question is straightforward. It asks the Minister whether he is satisfied with the capacity of the Air Corps to deal with unauthorised incursions by military aircraft into Irish airspace, whether sovereign or Irish controlled, and the actions that he has taken in the aftermath of the recent two Russian incursions, whereby bombers flew across Irish controlled airspace with their transponders turned off. These incidents gave rise to serious public concern.

Deputy Simon Coveney: The White Paper on Defence published in 2000 sets out the current defence policy framework. The role of the Air Corps as set out in the White Paper is to provide a range of military and non-military air services. The Air Corps has traditionally discharged a mix of functions based on a need to supply a range of services, such as air ambulance, fishery protection and support to An Garda Síochána, in addition to its military roles. The White Paper found that going beyond this capability would require a level of investment in Air Corps personnel, equipment and infrastructure which could not be justified. Accordingly the Air Corps is not tasked with or equipped for monitoring or responding to unauthorised aircraft overflying Irish airspace.

Work is continuing apace on the development of a new White Paper on Defence. A key part of the development of the new White Paper is consideration of the current security environment and challenges that may emerge into the future. Working groups comprising civil and military representatives from the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces are considering likely future operational demands and the defence capabilities required to meet them. This work will inform recommendations on defence provision.

With regard to the presence of Russian military aircraft in Irish controlled airspace on 28 January and 18 February 2015, it is important to note that these aircraft did not at any time enter Irish sovereign airspace. The aircraft were in an area for which the Irish Aviation Authority has responsibility for provision, operation and management of air navigation services for civil aviation. The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport consulted my Department and other Departments in relation to the incident and developed an agreed response to it.

I've asked Sean O'Fearghail to ask about the late October 2014 flights whether they too flew in Irish controlled airspace without notification or transponders when they flew down to Portugal and back, and how many times they've done that in the last ten years.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl: I ask the Minister to tell us what the agreed response was. One would assume there was some engagement by our Government with the representatives of the Russian authorities. The public were certainly concerned about the incursion. A security expert, Dr. Tom Clonan, referred to Ireland's airspace defences as Europe's weakest link and suggested that if terrorists took over an aircraft in Irish space, it would be game over. I fully appreciate the enormous economic and financial constraints under which the Department of Defence must operate but, as we look to the future, what are the Minister's plans to strengthen our air defences or to make the sort of investment that will be necessary for our Air Corps? Is he committed to that and does he have any sort of vision as to how our air defences should be developed?

Deputy Simon Coveney: In regard to the incidents involving Russian aircraft, while the aircraft did not enter Irish sovereign airspace, they were flying in an area for which the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, has responsibility for air traffic control. I understand the IAA co-ordinated closely with its UK counterpart at all stages during the incident to avoid a risk to any civil aircraft. I also understand the two authorities are in discussions on how best to resolve this issue through the International Civil Aviation Organisation, and that contact has been made with the latter. In addition, a senior official from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade met the Russian ambassador to convey the Government's serious concerns about the unacceptable safety risk which could be posed by non-notified and uncontrolled flight activity. I understand that the ambassador undertook to bring these concerns to the attention of authorities in Moscow.

In regard to the Deputy's second question, even when there were not expenditure limits in terms of pressure on the Exchequer, there was no decision by previous Governments to build capacity in the Air Corps for air defence because it was perceived as not presenting a sufficiently significant risk to justify such expenditure.

Deputy Simon Coveney: We must examine expenditure in the context of a new White Paper. The White Paper is the reason we carry out this exercise every ten to 15 years. However, I do not envisage the financing of the purchase of fighter jets any time soon. I do not say this flippantly, but the budgetary consequences of doing so would mean we would need multiples of the current capital defence spend.

according to the ICAO via Bloomberg the ICAO doesn't apply to military aircraft equipment so why is he referring to them http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-09/russia-s-dark-warplanes-are-spooking-europe

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl: The capacity or range of our aircraft is between 10% and 20% of that of Russian aeroplanes. If we are to address any challenge, from Russia or anywhere else outside the European Union, we need to consider this issue. Can the Minister commit to some rolling programme to replace the five Cessnas? It is welcome that there has been some engagement with the Russian ambassador on this matter. The issue of public safety is of paramount importance. Some 75% of transatlantic flights cross Irish airspace, or approximately 1,800 flights every 24 hours. Therefore, it is extremely reckless for aeroplanes to come into Irish controlled airspace with their transponders switched off, which constitutes a serious danger to public safety.

Deputy Simon Coveney: I agree with the Deputy that it is unacceptable for large aircraft to travell at high speed through international airspace that is the responsibility of the Irish Aviation Authority without informing it and with their transponders deliberately turned off. The only reason we knew they were there was the United Kingdom had informed us. The focus must be on our capacity to understand and know what is travelling through our airspace. We do not have long range radar capacity to do this along the west coast. This issue is being examined and costed and we are in discussions with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on the matter. This must be the first step towards more effective surveillance in order that we will know at any given point the number of aircraft in our airspace and, if possible, beyond this in international airspace. It is one thing not being able to respond to an aircraft travelling through airspace under the control of the Irish Aviation Authority but it is quite another not knowing it is there. Surveillance is the first step and we are looking at that issue in some detail.

is he suggesting we don't have full primary radar coverage of our Airspace when the IAA says we do

The IAA has three new Solid State Primary Radars, in addition to a traditional MSSR/PSR combined Radar at one of our Dublin sites.
These radars deliver full duplicated coverage of the IAA’s airspace to our advanced ARTAS Surveillance Data Processing systems located in Shannon and Dublin air traffic control centres
https://www.iaa.ie/surveillance-radar

Pat Dunne

Ah for Jayus sake, talk about flogging a dead horse (topic). :rolleyes:

Negative_G

Your last dozen or so replies to this thread have been merely quoting other media/videos with barely any dialogue. Why is this?

expectationlost

Negative_G wrote: »

Your last dozen or so replies to this thread have been merely quoting other media/videos with barely any dialogue. Why is this?

Im just keeping track of this story I think its useful to place quotes and links and comments where people can discuss them and possibly answer some of my queries. have you got anything to say on the topic?

Negative_G

expectationlost wrote: »

Im just keeping track of this story I think its useful to place quotes and links and comments where people can discuss them and possibly answer some of my queries. have you got anything to say on the topic?

I voiced an opinion on the topic several weeks ago, when it was topical.

This is a discussion forum, not a news feed.

As another user commented, 'flogging a dead horse' springs to mind.

Surely with the amount of links that you have posted you can answer your own queries?

expectationlost

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Ah for Jayus sake, talk about flogging a dead horse (topic). :rolleyes:

it was discussed in the Dail today, worthy of note I think. http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015032400008?opendocument

expectationlost

Negative_G wrote: »

I voiced an opinion on the topic several weeks ago, when it was topical.

This is a discussion forum, not a news feed.

As another user commented, 'flogging a dead horse' springs to mind.

Surely with the amount of links that you have posted you can answer your own queries?

this issue was discussed in the Dail today, worthy of note I think. http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015032400008?opendocument

I will make sure to write a comment on every single link I post from now on. I hope that satisfies the mod

...no I don't know everything , I think the kind denizens of Aviation & Aircraft will respond to anything I, a member of the media or politicians say that they think deserves a response or a correction.

if you are not interested don't read this thread.

Negative_G

expectationlost wrote: »

this issue was discussed in the Dail today, worthy of note I think. http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015032400008?opendocument

I will make sure to write a comment on every single link I post from now on.

...no I don't know everything , I think the kind denizens of Aviation & Aircraft will respond to anything I member of the media or politicians say that they think deserves a response or a correction.

if you are not interested don't read this thread.

I am interested in the topic. I enjoy reading informative posts from users that would appear to be informed in the field of aviation.

What is not enjoyable is seeing links to external sites every couple of posts. Judging by the responses, or lack thereof, of other users, it would appear I am not alone.

If every user just copied and pasted links, there would be no discussion, that wouldn't be very interesting now would it.

expectationlost

Negative_G wrote: »

I am interested in the topic. I enjoy reading informative posts from users that would appear to be informed in the field of aviation.

If every user just copied and pasted links, there would be no discussion, that wouldn't be very interesting now would it.

many of the links I have posted have information in them, I wouldn't try to pretend to know more then say a spokesperson from the ICAO.

If people only posted stuff they knew for definite there wouldn't be much discussion either.

Negative_G

expectationlost wrote: »

many of the links I have posted have information in them, I wouldn't try to pretend to know more then say a spokesperson from the ICAO.

If people only posted stuff they knew for definite there wouldn't be much discussion either.

I can see the information that they contain.

However, posting a block of quoted text, a link and a single word is not lending itself to discussion either.

Just because someone is not a subject matter expert does not stop them from creating debate.

Anyway. I do not wish to continue off topic so I'll bow out.

BlaasForRafa

expectationlost wrote: »

this issue was discussed in the Dail today, worthy of note I think. http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015032400008?opendocument

A bunch of TD's get their knickers in a twist over the russians performing routine flights. The appropriate question would be "So what?"

There's been a complete hysterical over-reaction in the populist media in the last few months to flights that are standard operating procedure to the Russian air force and Naval air service.

SpaceTime

To be perfectly honest, it's not that hysterical a reaction.

Accidents happen, and I'd really rather no possible nuclear weapons carrying aircraft were flying over or near my home country!

See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash for what the consequences are when something does go wrong. The USAF had an accident back in the 1960s in Spain, which major environmental impacts that exist to this day.

expectationlost

Negative_G wrote: »

I can see the information that they contain.

only if you come across them

However, posting a block of quoted text, a link and a single word is not lending itself to discussion either.

Just because someone is not a subject matter expert does not stop them from creating debate.

I try not post whole articles but I do post more of the Dail debate text as I doubt they are looking for hits.

Pat Dunne

expectationlost wrote: »

only if you come across them


I try not post whole articles........

Jeeze man........ 22 posts on boards in the last 20 hours.

Give yourself a break from the ould key board there bud. Get out to your nearest airfield and enjoy some real world things

expectationlost

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Jeeze man........ 22 posts on boards in the last 20 hours.

Give yourself a break from the ould key board there bud. Get out to your nearest airfield and enjoy some real world things

only 1 here I moved two posts to the military former as it was the Minister of Defence talking the rest was responding to off topic stuff from the likes of yerself

Tenger

expectationlost wrote: »

Im just keeping track of this story I think its useful to place quotes and links and comments where people can discuss them and possibly answer some of my queries. have you got anything to say on the topic?

As evidenced by the lack of 'discussion' around your repeated posting of online media articles, this thread is being kept alive by one poster.

Thread is on life support and will be locked if no life is detected in a weeks time.

expectationlost

Jets undetected over west coast ST paywall

IRELAND does not have long-range radar capacity along its west coast that could identify aircraft travelling with their flight transponders switched off, and the government is studying the cost of installing such a system, Simon Coveney, the defence minister, has revealed.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1537552.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_03_28

I did some very rough measuring on google earth, Im not sure im right, but the question arises does anyone expect us to build radar that could see ~300kms beyond our territory across the entire Irish controlled international airspace box? I don't think anyone actually does. So what exactly are they considering?

KingBrian2

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

A bunch of TD's get their knickers in a twist over the russians performing routine flights. The appropriate question would be "So what?"

There's been a complete hysterical over-reaction in the populist media in the last few months to flights that are standard operating procedure to the Russian air force and Naval air service.

To be fair it is more about increasing the entrenched mentality of Russians acting chauvinistic over Ireland and Britain acting all disapproving and coming to our aid. It is all power politics and a little cringe worthy, nobody serious thinks the Russians are invading but both sides are acting like children.

geneva geneva4444

expectationlost wrote: »

Jets undetected over west coast ST paywall http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1537552.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_03_28

I did some very rough measuring on google earth, Im not sure im right, but the question arises does anyone expect us to build radar that could see ~300kms beyond our territory across the entire Irish controlled international airspace box? I don't think anyone actually does. So what exactly are they considering?

Of course that is something they have to consider. At the moment, the range of our primary radar just about covers the island of Ireland and not much more. Long range primary radar provides valuable information that would allow us to know what is travelling through Irish controlled airspace without having to get a heads up from London Mil.

Currently, we have the equivalent of a bucket over our heads. By the time we can see anything on primary radar, it is already too late and there is no chance to assess, let alone deal with any potential situation (I won't go there on the "sure we have no means of doing anything anyway" stuff).

Expectationlost, I think you have become a bit narrow-minded on these Russian incidents. While there has been political disapproval of their antics, they have moved on from that. More importantly, it has served to highlight significant weaknesses in Ireland's air defence capabilities and that is in reality what is being addressed. These weaknesses have always existed but have for the first time in a long time been fully exposed. It is acknowledged that the Russians were at all times compliant with International airspace law (despite those laws being horribly out of date and in need of updating to reflect the massive increase in air traffic, all they have to do is let people know they are active in the area and turn on a transponder).

I dont understand your motives with all this to be honest? You've been bending over backwards to point out that this Russian stuff is a non-issue and yet you are the one keeping this thread alive. What gives?

expectationlost

geneva geneva4444 wrote: »

Of course that is something they have to consider. At the moment, the range of our primary radar just about covers the island of Ireland and not much more. Long range primary radar provides valuable information that would allow us to know what is travelling through Irish controlled airspace without having to get a heads up from London Mil.

Currently, we have the equivalent of a bucket over our heads. By the time we can see anything on primary radar, it is already too late and there is no chance to assess, let alone deal with any potential situation (I won't go there on the "sure we have no means of doing anything anyway" stuff).

Expectationlost, I think you have become a bit narrow-minded on these Russian incidents. While there has been political disapproval of their antics, they have moved on from that. More importantly, it has served to highlight significant weaknesses in Ireland's air defence capabilities and that is in reality what is being addressed. These weaknesses have always existed but have for the first time in a long time been fully exposed. It is acknowledged that the Russians were at all times compliant with International airspace law (despite those laws being horribly out of date and in need of updating to reflect the massive increase in air traffic, all they have to do is let people know they are active in the area and turn on a transponder).

I dont understand your motives with all this to be honest? You've been bending over backwards to point out that this Russian stuff is a non-issue and yet you are the one keeping this thread alive. What gives?

so how far does our primary radar see (and how far should it?) thats what im trying to figure out.

im actually interested in knowing exactly what is happening as far as possible.

somebody keeps on going to the media and saying we don't have any primary radar, and then members of national parliament are acting on that claim, which doesn't seem to true. I thought aviation geeks would interested in figuring this out. What the ICAO rules are, what the Shannon ATC does for planes approaching us from the Atlantic, all interesting stuff, no? (again sorry for posting links and not commenting aswell.)

Todd Toddington III helpfully said
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94896664&postcount=960

Alright guys, hope I can put this to bed for you. Tom clonan seems to be stirring or else he is a terrible security consultant. I'm a controller in Shannon, we have primary radar in Dublin, Cork, Shannon and one up north (donegal or northwest head, not sure which). They can see 50 to 60 nautical miles in all directions, maybe on average 40NM off our west coastline. We could see the two Russian bears south of cork quite clearly, I saw the pictures myself. Hope this clarifies things for you

40nm (74.08 kilometers!) so thats 28 nautical miles beyond our sovereign terroritory that a pretty good extra warning for our country isn't it? ( concern for cvilian planes in the Irish ATC box aside)

geneva geneva4444

expectationlost wrote: »

so how far does our primary radar see and how far should it? thats what im trying to figure out.

im actually interested in knowing exactly what is happening as far as possible.

somebody keeps on going to the media and saying we don't have any primary radar, I thought aviation geeks would interested in figuring this out.

okay well we definitely have primary radar so ignore whoever says we dont. how far coverage extends past the coast varies depending on proximity to the primary radar heads such as Cork, Shannon, Dublin.

as for how far should it extend, I would argue that it should cover all airspace for which the IAA is responsible for air navigation and safety, especially as we are the gateway to europe from the west.