Russian military jets 'disrupted UK aviation'

SpaceTime

fr336 wrote: »

Surreal.

That just started in loud Russian on my mobile in a waiting room.

Two types of Radar system

Primary: can see you up to 60nms away you don't need a transponder it gets return off of the physical aircraft

Secondary: (SSR) can see your transponder up to 260nms away

Range of both depends on power/position/angle

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Surveillance.htm

arubex

The 'R' in SSR always irked me; isn't really a radar system since it is not 'listening' for the return of its emitted pulses, but is a means of geneating a discrete squitter, a triggered response to an earlier signal.

It's like trying to find your keys in a dark room; you can shine a torch around ( primary radar, looking for the reflected lifght ) versus having one of those key-rings that beeps in response to you whistling ( secondary ).

expectationlost

Russian nuclear bombers enter Irish airspace for second time http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/russian-nuclear-bombers-enter-irish-airspace-for-second-time-313670.html more bs from Sean O'Riordan in the Examiner

Russian nuclear bombers enter Irish airspace for second time

no they didn't this and they didn't last time

The latest incursion happened on Thursday when the bombers hugged the Irish coastline

oh christ Sean you can see how he's indulging in it.

despite an official from the Department of Foreign Affairs previously telling the Russian ambassador it wasn’t acceptable.

not sure this actually happened.

ProfessorPlum

expectationlost wrote: »

Russian nuclear bombers enter Irish airspace for second time http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/russian-nuclear-bombers-enter-irish-airspace-for-second-time-313670.html more bs from Sean O'Riordan in the Examiner


no they didn't this and they didn't last time


oh christ Sean you can see how he's indulging in it.

not sure this actually happened.

Seriously, are you incapable of reading past the headline? Or of understanding the substance of the article. It seems whatever bee you have in your bonnet is seriously clouding your critical thinking.

The first two paragraphs of the linked article:

"Despite assurances, Russian nuclear bombers entered into Irish-controlled airspace for the second time in two weeks, this time coming considerably nearer to our coast.

The Russian Tupulov Tu-95 “Bear” bombers flew as close as 25 miles from the west, south and east coast — just 12 miles outside our sovereign airspace."

expectationlost

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Seriously, are you incapable of reading past the headline? Or of understanding the substance of the article. It seems whatever bee you have in your bonnet is seriously clouding your critical thinking.

The first two paragraphs of the linked article:

"Despite assurances, Russian nuclear bombers entered into Irish-controlled airspace for the second time in two weeks, this time coming considerably nearer to our coast.

The Russian Tupulov Tu-95 “Bear” bombers flew as close as 25 miles from the west, south and east coast — just 12 miles outside our sovereign airspace."

the headline is factually wrong that's my problem, I think making the distinction between foreign military planes flying in Irish airspace and International airspace is absolutly crucial, including in the headine.

the articles from Sean O'Riordan contain facts that are true and a lot of other indulgent waffle.

arubex

arubex wrote: »

The 'R' in SSR always irked me; isn't really a radar system since it is not 'listening' for the return of its emitted pulses, but is a means of geneating a discrete squitter, a triggered response to an earlier signal

Can understand that, bit like being mine, report at 4 Distance Measuring Equipment, always irked me.

expectationlost

Seán Ó Fearghaíl 209. To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the circumstances in which two Russian military aircraft entered Irish controlled air space in January 2015; if his attention had been drawn to the fact that these aircraft were going to enter Irish controlled air space; the details that he knew of this situation at the time; the details regarding the episode now; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7469/15]

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-02-19a.586&s=russian+military+aircraft#g588.r

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)

The Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) has confirmed that two Russian Bear military aircraft flew at 10° west in Irish controlled airspace on Wednesday 28th January, 2015. The IAA coordinated closely with its UK counterparts and there was no risk to commercial aircraft operating in the area during the incident. The Russian aircraft did not enter Irish sovereign airspace (over the land territory of the State and 12 nautical miles from the Irish coast) at any time but were in an area under IAA air traffic control (which extends to 256 nautical miles from the Irish coast). The Russian aircraft were approximately 50 nautical miles from the Irish coast at their nearest point.
In line with International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) rules, it is normal practice for the IAA to be informed by the relevant State of any military flights operating in Irish controlled airspace. Ensuring the application of this practice is an important consideration and as this did not occur in this particular instance my Department has raised the issue with ICAO and outlined concerns arising.

In line with International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) rules, it is normal practice for the IAA to be informed by the relevant State of any military flights operating in Irish controlled airspace.

does this actually happen in all cases bar the Russians recently?

cameramonkey

expectationlost wrote: »

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-02-19a.586&s=russian+military+aircraft#g588.r


In line with International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) rules, it is normal practice for the IAA to be informed by the relevant State of any military flights operating in Irish controlled airspace.

does this actually happen in all cases bar the Russian recently?

I would wonder....

expectationlost

cameramonkey wrote: »

I would wonder....

Russia's Defense Ministry stressed that all flights were carried out in strict accordance with international regulations on the use of airspace over neutral waters, without violating the borders of other states

https://translate.google.com/translate?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.ie&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150202/1045470193.html
РИА Новости http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150202/1045470193.html#ixzz3SKpIowx2

Duffer2010

I noticed two PC 9s break fomation and come into land in Bal yesterday. Got me thinking we really must be the laughing stock of Europe that we have fook all in way of air defence in this indepedent country of ours. Russian Bears floating about the place and our IAC continue their prep for any potential flypasts or airshows they may have to take part in.

Storm 10

Duffer2010 wrote: »

I noticed two PC 9s break fomation and come into land in Bal yesterday. Got me thinking we really must be the laughing stock of Europe that we have fook all in way of air defence in this indepedent country of ours. Russian Bears floating about the place and our IAC continue their prep for any potential flypasts or airshows they may have to take part in.

What do you expect them to do its not their fault we have no aircraft, all they can do is train new pilots etc I'm sure they were not training for airshows yesterday and it's normal in the military to break off to land

SpaceTime

The problem is that if the Irish Government were to increase spending on the air corps we'd immediately have various people saying it was a waste of money and that it should be flushed down the toilet by the HSE's instead.

Perhaps planning virtual children's hospitals ...

We might be better off with a formalised air defence agreement with the UK, France and the Nordic Countries.

Iceland is now in a similar predicament.

EchoIndia

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem is that if the Irish Government were to increase spending on the air corps we'd immediately have various people saying it was a waste of money and that it should be flushed down the toilet by the HSE's instead.

Perhaps planning virtual Cohen's children's hospitals ...

We might be better off with a formalised air defence agreement with the UK, France and the Nordic Countries.

Iceland is now in a similar predicament.

The word "NATO" comes to mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

Shannon757

EchoIndia wrote: »

The word "NATO" comes to mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

Albania have joined NATO and they don't even have any fixed wing aircraft.
So what's stopping Ireland from joining?

Negative_G

Shannon757 wrote: »

Albania have joined NATO and they don't even have any fixed wing aircraft.
So what's stopping Ireland from joining?

The ingrained attitude of 'sure it will be grand' whilst hiding behind a policy of non-alingment that was taken decades ago.

Joining NATO would also require government to comply with NATO standards of investment with respect of GDP.

In other words, it's easier for politicians to bury their heads in the sand and maintain the status quo than to make a 'big decision' which will leave them open to criticism from the oppostition and the public who see no worth in having any defence capability.

The government is generally always reactive and not pro active. A major incident or a seismic shift in public opinion is the only thing that will incite change.

expectationlost

Negative_G wrote: »

The ingrained attitude of 'sure it will be grand' whilst hiding behind a policy of non-alingment that was taken decades ago.

Joining NATO would also require government to comply with NATO standards of investment with respect of GDP.

In other words, it's easier for politicians to bury their heads in the sand and maintain the status quo than to make a 'big decision' which will leave them open to criticism from the oppostition and the public who see no worth in having any defence capability.

The government is generally always reactive and not pro active. A major incident or a seismic shift in public opinion is the only thing that will incite change.

Romania, Lithuania and Poland joined NATO and they got to provide the US with airfield torture prisons to hold kidnappees, thats the kinda thing that happens when you join NATO.

Re Poland http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2015/02/17/polands-complicity-in-cia-torture-programme-confirmed-as-european-court-rejects-warsaws-appeal/

SpaceTime

I'd rather see a common EU defence than depending on NATO which can often be very US led and at loggerheads to European public opinion.

We can't go on clinging to America's skirts and we have to also accept that EU requirements, especially when dealing with Russia need to be nuanced and subtle. We directly border the populated parts of Russia and we need to have a normal, neighbourly relationship not Cold War 2.0

expectationlost

Finally got RTE to correct their headline from "Russian aircraft flew within Irish airspace" to "Russian aircraft in Irish-controlled airspace" http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0219/681373-russian-aircraft-raf-escort/

lord lucan

Can we please keep to the discussion at hand and keep to air incursions and not the politics of NATO and other such cul de sacs.

expectationlost

NATO-Russia jet scrambling hysteria: Who is the real threat?

fyi an op-ed by Dr Alexander Yakovenko, Russian Ambassador to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland http://rt.com/op-edge/234231-nato-russia-uk-planes/

http://www.rusemb.org.uk/ambarticles/412 on Russian embassy site

Duffer2010

Storm 10 wrote: »

What do you expect them to do its not their fault we have no aircraft, all they can do is train new pilots etc I'm sure they were not training for airshows yesterday and it's normal in the military to break off to land

I know it's standard practice to break formation over the field prior to landing. My post wasn't a dig at the Air Corps directly but rather the powers that be past and present and the lack of them willing to invest in even a semi realistic air defence since 1956 when the first Vampires were purchased.

expectationlost

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)

629. To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport his views on the alleged use of Irish controlled airspace by two Russian bomber planes on 28 January 2015; if he has spoken to the Russian authorities regarding the incident; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7104/15]

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-02-24a.1414&s=russian+military+aircraft#g1416.r

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)

In line with International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) rules, it is normal practice for the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) to be informed by the relevant State of any military flights operating in Irish controlled airspace. Ensuring the application of this practice is an important consideration and as this did not occur in this particular instance my Department has raised the issue with ICAO and outlined concerns arising. It is emphasised that the IAA coordinated closely with its UK counterparts at all stages during the incident so as to avoid a risk to any civil aircraft during the incident. Although there was no such risk on this occasion, such non-notified and non-controlled flight activity is not acceptable.
I have collaborated closely with other members of the Government in relation to this incident and on the development of an agreed response. As part of that agreed response, and under the instruction of my colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, a senior official from that Department has met with the Russian Ambassador. The official conveyed the serious concerns of the Government about the unacceptable safety risk which could be posed by non-notified and non-controlled flight activity. The Ambassador undertook to bring the concerns expressed to the attention of his authorities in Moscow.

bronn

expectationlost

via energomash via http://theaviationist.com/2014/12/14/near-collision-off-sweden/

In brief, US aircraft can fly with transponder off (due ragard does not require transponder on) even during routine or training activities. I would say that RC-135 near Russian or Chinese border fly with transponder off
http://www.jag.navy.mil/organization/code_10.htm
"Ordinarily, but only as a matter of policy, U.S. military aircraft on routine point-to-point flights through international airspace follow ICAO flight procedures and utilize FIR services. ... When U.S. military aircraft do notfollow ICAO flight procedures, they must navigate with "due regard" for civil aviation safety. As mentioned above, exceptions to this policy include military contingency operations, classified or politically sensitive missions, and routine aircraft carrier operations or other training activities. The United States does not recognize the right of a coastal nation to apply its FIR procedures to foreign military aircraft. Accordingly, U.S. military aircraft not intending to enter national airspace should not identify themselves or otherwise comply with FIR procedures established by other nations, unless the United States has specifically agreed to do so."

so that means the US military wouldn't fly with transponders on either ? 'unless the United States has specifically agreed to do so' has it?

Pat Dunne

expectationlost wrote: »

via energomash via http://theaviationist.com/2014/12/14/near-collision-off-sweden/


so that means the US military wouldn't fly with transponders on either ? 'unless the United States has specifically agreed to do so' has it?

I would go as far as to say that every airforce, operate along similar lines.

expectationlost

Ukrainian Conflict

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)

1. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade Ireland’s position on the deteriorating situation in the Ukraine; if he has had contact with his Russian counterpart on this matter; if he will provide an update on the discussions he has had about the incursion into Irish airspace by Russian military aircraft; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8340/15]

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)

2. In regard to encroachment on Irish-controlled airspace, I understand the Minister directed one of his senior officials to convey directly to the Russian ambassador the concerns of the Government and Irish people. Has he received a response from the Russian Government in regard to these concerns about illegal activity by Russian military aircraft?

Charles Flanagan (Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)

In regard to the presence of Russian aircraft in Irish-controlled airspace, on 28 January and 18 February Russian military aircraft were in an area in respect of which the Irish Aviation Authority has responsibility for the provision, operation and management of air navigation services and civil aviation.
The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport has relayed its concerns to the International Civil Aviation Authority. It emphasised that the IAA co-ordinated closely with its UK counterpart at all stages during the incidents to avoid any risk to civil aircraft. Although there was no such risk on these occasions, non-notified and non-controlled flight activity is not acceptable.
On 3 February, senior officials in my Department met the Russian ambassador in Iveagh House to convey the serious concern of the Irish Government about the incidents. On 19 February, these concerns were further underlined to the deputy head of mission in the Russian embassy. The Russians have noted our concerns and I hope they will act accordingly.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-02-26a.7&s=airspace#g14

volku

Once the Russian invade the Republic
we should declare a war on UK
and deliver straight away
once we are in UK and NATO

seems to be the easiest way to join NATO and be protected

expectationlost

Passenger planes 'dodged' Russian bombers http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/passenger-planes-dodged-russian-bombers-315623.html

the Irish Examiner Sean O'Riordan again

1 plane on ground, other distance not included in the piece, so not near

like to see report for myself

expectationlost

Two Irish planes diverted to avoid Russian bear bombers http://utv.ie/News/2015/03/03/Two-Irish-planes-diverted-to-avoid-Russian-bear-bombers-32771